Heroes of the Horn

[Icedragon]

No, I think it just has to do with when the Pattern needs that person, Birgitte is just needed for general war. The dragon is only needed twice per every turning of the wheel, one for the Dragon and one for the Dragon Reborn

 

Do we KNOW this, from what I recall we know absoultly nothing about the 5th, 6th and 7th ages and very little about the 1st and 4th. Could the same soul possibly be used to herald the end of all seven ages? Maybe the first channeller was the same soul.

[Terez]

Don't forget Jesus.

[fionwe1987]

 

She didn't.

I'm sorry, but she did. Your quote says absolutely nothing. This one, on the other hand...

"We have almost always been linked," Birgitte told Nynaeve without taking her eyes from Cain's. "He is usually born well before me- so I know my time approaches again when I cannot find him- and I usually hate him at first sight in the flesh. But we nearly always end lovers or wed. A simple story, but I think we have spun it out in a thousand variations."

 

And also when they are not needed.

That happens sometimes. If she's born every 200 years, it would have to happen a lot more times. The current Birgette was certainly not born 200 or fewer years ago. She would have probably remembered more of this world if so, and if she was famous, she would have been worried about being recognized by some Aes Sedai.

It's possible, but we have no real reason to believe that.

We do. See quote above.

[Terez]

She didn't.

I'm sorry, but she did.

 

No, she didn't. She knew the time was coming; Gaidal's disappearance just gives her a more concrete idea of when she will be born. Regularity does not have to be precise, you know. And you didn't even acknowledge the fact that the link I gave makes it clear that Heroes are not born only when they are needed. The debates are separate; you can't use one to distract from the other.

[fionwe1987]

No, she didn't. She knew the time was coming; Gaidal's disappearance just gives her a more concrete idea of when she will be born.

Her quote says no such thing. She says straight out that she relies on Gaidal's birth to know when she'll be spun out. There's no other component to it.

 

Regularity does not have to be precise, you know. And you didn't even acknowledge the fact that the link I gave makes it clear that Heroes are not born only when they are needed. The debates are separate; you can't use one to distract from the other.

I didn't acknowledge it? I beg to differ. I did acknowledge it, and even addressed it.

[fikkie77]

Her quote says exactly that: Gaidal is nowhere to be found in TAR, so he's spun out or about to be. Which means she was close to be spun out herself, because she usually is spun out after.

[fionwe1987]

Her quote says exactly that: Gaidal is nowhere to be found in TAR, so he's spun out or about to be. Which means she was close to be spun out herself, because she usually is spun out after.

That's my point. Birgette says that she knows when she'll be spun out when Gaidal vanishes from TAR, not when roughy X number of years have passed. Which makes Terez's idea of a roughly regular rebirth cycle untenable.

[fikkie77]

The first doesn't exclude the second.

But most importantly: you're making a mistake. You cannot count time in TAR. The passage of time is not the same as in the waking world. She knows that when Gaidal is spun out, her next birth is close. But she doesn't know exactlty how long it will be between Gaidal being spun out and her next birth. Even so, if she is spun out quite regularly (like every 200 years), she wouldn't be able to count that time in TAR.

She might be spun out regularly, but she wouldn't be able to use that to calculate her next birth. The fact that Gaidal is spun out is her closest reference.

[fionwe1987]

The first doesn't exclude the second.

But there is no evidence for the second. That Birgette was born four times from the foudning of the Tower to the Trolloc Wars doesn't indicate she was born once every 200-250 years! She could have been born thrice in the first two centuries after the Breaking, and once during the Trolloc Wars, for all we know!

 

But most importantly: you're making a mistake. You cannot count time in TAR.

You can, indeed, count time. It just flows differently than in the real world. For someone who spends all their time in TAR, TAR time will be the real time, with all its weirdness, and she'd be able to keep track of it. If you can't count time in TAR at all, you can't have awareness, and sentences like "Gaidal is spun out before me" make no sense. The only place we know of with no sense of time at all is the endless Dream pool. Egwene says there's no sense of time there, and she wouldn't feel bored waiting there for Nynaeve/Elayne's dreams to show up. Which is very interesting, since Egwene is able to think there. When there, then, she has effectively stepped out of time (though time is still ticking for her body), something the DO cannot do. It makes for... interesting... speculation.

The passage of time is not the same as in the waking world.

Exactly. But there is passage of time, and it is always in the forward direction.

She knows that when Gaidal is spun out, her next birth is close. But she doesn't know exactlty how long it will be between Gaidal being spun out and her next birth.

Yes, because their age difference isn't always constant.

Even so, if she is spun out quite regularly (like every 200 years), she wouldn't be able to count that time in TAR.

She won't call it 200 years, but even if it counts as 5000 TAR years, she can make that count.

She might be spun out regularly, but she wouldn't be able to use that to calculate her next birth. The fact that Gaidal is spun out is her closest reference.

Doesn't make sense. If she can tell time well enough to know Gaidal went before her, she can tell time to know that there's a rough regularity to her rebirth.

[TristanWebb]

Time in TAR doesn't flow backwards, so saying something happened before or after something else is easy. Time does however flow inconsistantly, even over a week you can add or lose days, so saying how long before or after is impossible with any accuracy. She also has the memories of her lives, so she would know if Gaidel was 5 years older than her or not from that, but even if he was exactly 5 years older every time, without an outside reference she couldn't tell when those years are over.

[Lacanos]

She didn't.

I'm sorry, but she did.

 

No, she didn't. She knew the time was coming; Gaidal's disappearance just gives her a more concrete idea of when she will be born. Regularity does not have to be precise, you know. And you didn't even acknowledge the fact that the link I gave makes it clear that Heroes are not born only when they are needed. The debates are separate; you can't use one to distract from the other.

 

Sorry Terez, but what evidence do you have for this? Surely if they knew their rebirth cycles were fairly regular, they'd have known that Gaidal was going to be spun out again, and Birgitte wouldn't have been worried about it. Indeed, that quote seems to mean that she uses his disappearance as the indicator for when she will be reborn again.

 

That said, you're obviously right that they can be born when not needed. However, as you say, the debates are separate. It seems entirely ridiculous to suggest such souls are reborn, for example, every 300 years.

 

EDIT: Sorry, momentarily forgot time was inconsistent in TAR. That said, it seems entirely unfounded speculation to suggest that, because she was born 4 times between the founding of the Tower and the Trolloc Wars, that this means there's a consistent pattern of such. We need more evidence for that to float.

[Terez]

lol. Cats in a sack.

[Lacanos]

lol. Cats in a sack.

 

Really though?

Sigh.

[Terez]

Yes, really. Better luck next time.

[avernite]

Well, what DO we know?

 

Birgitte seems to be spun out pretty regularly..

Rand certainly is suggestive that LTT was his last birth.

Arthur Hawkwing seems to be the last incarnation of that soul.

Rogosh still has his name.

Say three other heroes are still known, but by names with slight differences, which I would suggest means a birth before the last 1000 years but after the breaking; though, admittedly, that's way more speculative.

There's about a hundred total.

 

Ergo, my conclusion is: it's a mess/it's very variable. Sure seems to suggest no births in the last 1000 years save for, perhaps, whoever is alive right now, Rogosh, Gaidal and Birgitte.

[TristanWebb]

I still think it is based on Age/hero. Birgitte seems pretty obsessed with bows, which seems to indicate any gun-centred age doesn't spin her out as often. Ages without the DO doesn't need the Champion of Light, so the Dragon might not be spun out at all or repeatedly as just a normal person. The siblings who herald a new Age are probably stuck in TAR so much that being spun out is more an inconvinience than anything else to them.

 

There are what, 2 dozen heroes when Mat calls them? They can't all be huge forces on the world, just recurring themes that the wheel likes.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I still think it is based on Age/hero. Birgitte seems pretty obsessed with bows, which seems to indicate any gun-centred age doesn't spin her out as often. Ages without the DO doesn't need the Champion of Light, so the Dragon might not be spun out at all or repeatedly as just a normal person. The siblings who herald a new Age are probably stuck in TAR so much that being spun out is more an inconvinience than anything else to them.

 

There are what, 2 dozen heroes when Mat calls them? They can't all be huge forces on the world, just recurring themes that the wheel likes.

 

It is around 100. Can't remember if it is slightly more or slightly less.

[Lacanos]

Yes, really. Better luck next time.

 

 

I've literally no idea what the hostility is all about, but get that chip off your shoulder and stop being so damn unpleasant.

[Terez]

I was being pleasant, until the cats in a sack showed up. In other words, you guys. Really, I'm still being pleasant.

[fionwe1987]

lol. Cats in a sack.

What a way to chicken out of a debate. Losing respect here.

[Lacanos]

I was being pleasant, until the cats in a sack showed up. In other words, you guys. Really, I'm still being pleasant.

 

Sorry, how is that the case? I disagreed with you on one point and agreed on another. Seriously, that's pathetic.

[avernite]

I still think it is based on Age/hero. Birgitte seems pretty obsessed with bows, which seems to indicate any gun-centred age doesn't spin her out as often. Ages without the DO doesn't need the Champion of Light, so the Dragon might not be spun out at all or repeatedly as just a normal person. The siblings who herald a new Age are probably stuck in TAR so much that being spun out is more an inconvinience than anything else to them.

 

There are what, 2 dozen heroes when Mat calls them? They can't all be huge forces on the world, just recurring themes that the wheel likes.

 

It is around 100. Can't remember if it is slightly more or slightly less.

 

Just reread the relevant section for that post of mine on the last page. It's "around 100" with no more detail.

Also of interest is that their weaponry is sort of mentioned and all seems fitting to the current age (swords, axes, etc) but maybe that's just random unless they were all quietly reborn in the third age.

[Terez]

lol. Cats in a sack.

What a way to chicken out of a debate. Losing respect here.

 

I find it hard to believe you had any in the first place.

 

I was being pleasant, until the cats in a sack showed up. In other words, you guys. Really, I'm still being pleasant.

 

Sorry, how is that the case? I disagreed with you on one point and agreed on another. Seriously, that's pathetic.

 

It's the way you go about it. Same for fionwe. I like discussions, but not with cats in a sack.

[fionwe1987]

I find it hard to believe you had any in the first place.

I did, actually. When you stuck to discussing the points being considered, and didn't decide to fling around ridiculous complaints when you failed to find evidence to back your view.

[Terez]

I did have evidence to back my view, which you chose to ignore, with italics and everything. What can I possibly say to that?