Egwene Appreciation Thread

[RandA lThor]

I know, I don't like the Egwene hate either, but I am just giving a possible explanation. Also, you know that Nynaeve still remembers the Two Rivers Rand and helps him. Egwene forgets that so many times and often thinks him as an enemy.

 

ToM

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

 

Yes, and she does realize that sometimes. However, there are times when she sees Rand as the Dragon and something to be controlled instead of a person. I think there is a moment when she blames him for the Black Tower bondings and she thinks of him then as someone she should not like or fear.

[Maleshub]

.... However, there are times when she sees Rand as the Dragon and something to be controlled instead of a person.

 

That's interesting. Where in the books, prior to Salidar, did that occur? And where after Salidar was it mentioned?

[RandA lThor]

.... However, there are times when she sees Rand as the Dragon and something to be controlled instead of a person.

 

That's interesting. Where in the books, prior to Salidar, did that occur? And where after Salidar was it mentioned?

I think that it was mentioned around the time when she learned that the BT was bonding Aes Sedai.

[Maleshub]

Is this what you are referring to:

 

ToM: A Good Soup

 

"I suppose," Nynaeve said, lips turning down. " If it matters, Rand didn't approve the men bonding women."

 

"It doesn't matter if he did or not," Egwene said. "The Asha'man are his responsibility."

 

"As the Aes Sedai who chained h im and beat h im are yours, Mother?" Nynaeve asked.

 

"Inherited from Elaida, perhaps," Egwene said, eyes narrowing just slightly.

 

She doesn't say he needs to be controlled.

[RandA lThor]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

[Maleshub]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

[RandA lThor]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

 

However, whatever the BT does, Rand cannot always control. He's the DR and kind of has a lot of other stuff to do. it's not like he was chilling in Arad Doman with Min when the Black Tower incident happened. Also, when rand found out, he was really mad, so it wasn't his fault.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't trust him until the very end. Do you really think that Rand would have done better in the hands of Aes Sedai like the ones in the WT at that time. With the BT's influence and a possible Sheriam keeper, something bad might have happened to rand. What he has become, he has done because he was by himself.

[Maleshub]

My initial question was about Egwene thinking that Rand needs to be controlled. His need of guidance and advisers (despite him making Cadsuane Sedai his adviser) is not an issue at the moment.

[RandA lThor]

A more subtle hint on needing controlling was when Rand told her that he was going to break the seals. egwene did not think that she could trust Rand at that moment and has started to organize armies against him. That is also to control him to make him swerve away from that decision.

[wookiebear]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

 

However, whatever the BT does, Rand cannot always control. He's the DR and kind of has a lot of other stuff to do. it's not like he was chilling in Arad Doman with Min when the Black Tower incident happened. Also, when rand found out, he was really mad, so it wasn't his fault.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't trust him until the very end. Do you really think that Rand would have done better in the hands of Aes Sedai like the ones in the WT at that time. With the BT's influence and a possible Sheriam keeper, something bad might have happened to rand. What he has become, he has done because he was by himself.

 

as I recall the Black Tower was created at a time when Rand was obsessed with the creation of weapons for battle. At this point in his development it was all about the ends rather than the means. He would have forgiven almost anything to have the tools he believed he needed to defeat the shadow. It is not until the epiphanal moment on Dragon Mount that he realizes that more is needed, that thinking men of conviction rather than unthinking tools are what is needed to defeat the shadow (this is reinforced in the preview of AMoL that we were allowed to read........ damn their eyes )

 

The scene between Nyn and Eqwene (ToM: A Good Soup) demonstrates to me that at this point Egwene does not consider him as a man but rather as a legend come to life, one that cannot make mistakes because the pattern will not allow it. The BT is his responsibility because it is his creation. I truly think at his point she does think that a control is needed, not of Rand necessarily, but of the Dragon Reborn, and I think she does see the WT as the controlling entity, led by herself as the Amyrlin.

 

I do not think at this time she sees herself as what she has become, the legend and myth that is the Amyrlin. I truly believe she does not realize this until she confronts and defeats Mesaana, that she is responsible for all actions of the tower and the Amyrlin, whether she was Amyrlin at the time or not. It is a realization of the duties and responsibilities of leadership, and this realization by Egwene is one of the moments of true growth for this character that does occur on screen rather than in the depths of the authors mind.

 

edited for clarity and mesaana, not maseema

[RandA lThor]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

 

However, whatever the BT does, Rand cannot always control. He's the DR and kind of has a lot of other stuff to do. it's not like he was chilling in Arad Doman with Min when the Black Tower incident happened. Also, when rand found out, he was really mad, so it wasn't his fault.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't trust him until the very end. Do you really think that Rand would have done better in the hands of Aes Sedai like the ones in the WT at that time. With the BT's influence and a possible Sheriam keeper, something bad might have happened to rand. What he has become, he has done because he was by himself.

 

as I recall the Black Tower was created at a time when Rand was obsessed with the creation of weapons for battle. At this point in his development it was all about the ends rather than the means. He would have forgiven almost anything to have the tools he believed he needed to defeat the shadow. It is not until the epiphanal moment on Dragon Mount that he realizes that more is needed, that thinking men of conviction rather than unthinking tools are what is needed to defeat the shadow (this is reinforced in the preview of AMoL that we were allowed to read........ damn their eyes )

 

The scene between Nyn and Eqwene (ToM: A Good Soup) demonstrates to me that at this point Egwene does not consider him as a man but rather as a legend come to life, one that cannot make mistakes because the pattern will not allow it. The BT is his responsibility because it is his creation. I truly think at his point she does think that a control is needed, not of Rand necessarily, but of the Dragon Reborn, and I think she does see the WT as the controlling entity, led by herself as the Amyrlin.

 

I do not think at this time she sees herself as what she has become, the legend and myth that is the Amyrlin. I truly believe she does not realize this until she confronts and defeats Maseema, that she is responsible for all actions of the tower and the Amyrlin, whether she was Amyrlin at the time or not. It is a realization of the duties and responsibilities of leadership, and this realization by Egwene is one of the moments of true growth for this character that does occur on screen rather than in the depths of the authors mind.

 

edited for clarity

 

I agree with all of this, except for the fact that rand was to blame. before his Dragonmount appearance factor, he told Logain that he did not want his men binding any Aes Sedai when Logain arrived in the inn. Also, he sent narishma to Salidar to tell the Aes Sedai that they could bond some people in the BT.

[Maleshub]

The scene between Nyn and Eqwene (ToM: A Good Soup) demonstrates to me that at this point Egwene does not consider him as a man but rather as a legend come to life, one that cannot make mistakes because the pattern will not allow it. The BT is his responsibility because it is his creation. I truly think at his point she does think that a control is needed, not of Rand necessarily, but of the Dragon Reborn, and I think she does see the WT as the controlling entity, led by herself as the Amyrlin.

 

If she thinks that he cannot make mistakes, then why control or guide him?

 

I agree with all of this, except for the fact that rand was to blame. before his Dragonmount appearance factor, he told Logain that he did not want his men binding any Aes Sedai when Logain arrived in the inn. Also, he sent narishma to Salidar to tell the Aes Sedai that they could bond some people in the BT.

 

Rand is the commander. He takes responsibility for the actions of his troops, even if they were without explicit command. A General is responsible for the actions of his army.

 

Blame and guilt are a different issue.

[wookiebear]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

 

However, whatever the BT does, Rand cannot always control. He's the DR and kind of has a lot of other stuff to do. it's not like he was chilling in Arad Doman with Min when the Black Tower incident happened. Also, when rand found out, he was really mad, so it wasn't his fault.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't trust him until the very end. Do you really think that Rand would have done better in the hands of Aes Sedai like the ones in the WT at that time. With the BT's influence and a possible Sheriam keeper, something bad might have happened to rand. What he has become, he has done because he was by himself.

 

as I recall the Black Tower was created at a time when Rand was obsessed with the creation of weapons for battle. At this point in his development it was all about the ends rather than the means. He would have forgiven almost anything to have the tools he believed he needed to defeat the shadow. It is not until the epiphanal moment on Dragon Mount that he realizes that more is needed, that thinking men of conviction rather than unthinking tools are what is needed to defeat the shadow (this is reinforced in the preview of AMoL that we were allowed to read........ damn their eyes )

 

The scene between Nyn and Eqwene (ToM: A Good Soup) demonstrates to me that at this point Egwene does not consider him as a man but rather as a legend come to life, one that cannot make mistakes because the pattern will not allow it. The BT is his responsibility because it is his creation. I truly think at his point she does think that a control is needed, not of Rand necessarily, but of the Dragon Reborn, and I think she does see the WT as the controlling entity, led by herself as the Amyrlin.

 

I do not think at this time she sees herself as what she has become, the legend and myth that is the Amyrlin. I truly believe she does not realize this until she confronts and defeats Maseema, that she is responsible for all actions of the tower and the Amyrlin, whether she was Amyrlin at the time or not. It is a realization of the duties and responsibilities of leadership, and this realization by Egwene is one of the moments of true growth for this character that does occur on screen rather than in the depths of the authors mind.

 

edited for clarity

 

I agree with all of this, except for the fact that rand was to blame. before his Dragonmount appearance factor, he told Logain that he did not want his men binding any Aes Sedai when Logain arrived in the inn. Also, he sent narishma to Salidar to tell the Aes Sedai that they could bond some people in the BT.

 

yup, not to blame but responsible, a subtle difference to be sure, but it is a difference, and one I can easily live with

 

His actions as you described above to me are the responses of a leader, issuing instructions and redressing the wrongs that have been committed by the people that are under his command. It is the actions of a responsible leader and one that I believe shows that Rand, even before his DM moment, was growing into the Dragon Reborn and a true leader.

 

I believe that Egwene is on the cusp of a similar moment that may occur on the FoM when her gathered forces confront the DR. I look forward to this scene because I hope it will be a moment of awesome rather than meh

 

As always these are my thoughts and your mileage wlll vary

[wookiebear]

The scene between Nyn and Eqwene (ToM: A Good Soup) demonstrates to me that at this point Egwene does not consider him as a man but rather as a legend come to life, one that cannot make mistakes because the pattern will not allow it. The BT is his responsibility because it is his creation. I truly think at his point she does think that a control is needed, not of Rand necessarily, but of the Dragon Reborn, and I think she does see the WT as the controlling entity, led by herself as the Amyrlin.

 

If she thinks that he cannot make mistakes, then why control or guide him?

 

 

Perhaps I overstated with the "cannot make mistakes" and should rather say that fate bens around him as the wheel wills..............

 

In a world where all is deterministic and prophecies come to life, if you were in a position of power would you not consider using that power to guide and control if you could, that perhaps fate conspired to place you in the position guide, influence and possibly control the bearers of great power. Egwene is in such a position, and perhaps control is not possible, but who is to say that fate and the forces conspire to place her in a position to guide and set aright.

 

then again why fight at all if it is all said and done, prophecy and determinism is in control of all and there is no true conflict, just the waiting for the other shoe to drop.........

 

I really do believe that is the issue with prophecy always being true. If it is always correct, why worry about it at all, forces will make it happen right and true. If instead prophecy and foretellings are potential futures, things that might happen, then you would do all you could to insure that the "correct" future comes true.

 

Interesting philosophy when you look at it that way, but a truly deterministic fate would make for a rotten story. You could just cut to the end and say "Blah wins and all live/die ever after as the wheel wills". Not good drama at all, but would cut back on debate now wouldn't it

[RandA lThor]

What I was saying basically was that Egwene started thinking of Rand as the Dragon Reborn and another piece in a game instead of someone who used to be her friend and needs her to cooperate with him.

[Suttree]

However, whatever the BT does, Rand cannot always control. He's the DR and kind of has a lot of other stuff to do. it's not like he was chilling in Arad Doman with Min when the Black Tower incident happened. Also, when rand found out, he was really mad, so it wasn't his fault.

 

Rand was negligent with the BT and it most certainly is his fault/responsibility. Don't think you will find anyone attempting to argue that.

 

A more subtle hint on needing controlling was when Rand told her that he was going to break the seals. egwene did not think that she could trust Rand at that moment and has started to organize armies against him. That is also to control him to make him swerve away from that decision.

 

Except you know for that little quote I provide earlier about trust and how she needs to think of him as Rand not the DR. In addition we know why she gathered the armies, it was to support her arguments against breaking the seal and face the shadow at the LB. Not sure how that can be twisted to "control".

[Suttree]

please delete

[Maleshub]

Perhaps I overstated with the "cannot make mistakes" and should rather say that fate bens around him as the wheel wills..............

 

In a world where all is deterministic and prophecies come to life, if you were in a position of power would you not consider using that power to guide and control if you could, that perhaps fate conspired to place you in the position guide, influence and possibly control the bearers of great power. Egwene is in such a position, and perhaps control is not possible, but who is to say that fate and the forces conspire to place her in a position to guide and set aright.

 

then again why fight at all if it is all said and done, prophecy and determinism is in control of all and there is no true conflict, just the waiting for the other shoe to drop.........

 

I really do believe that is the issue with prophecy always being true. If it is always correct, why worry about it at all, forces will make it happen right and true. If instead prophecy and foretellings are potential futures, things that might happen, then you would do all you could to insure that the "correct" future comes true.

 

Interesting philosophy when you look at it that way, but a truly deterministic fate would make for a rotten story. You could just cut to the end and say "Blah wins and all live/die ever after as the wheel wills". Not good drama at all, but would cut back on debate now wouldn't it

 

Rand knows Egwene has a part to play; or so he hints when he says in their meeting in ToM that she's done her part; and that the Stole sits well on her shoulder. What that role will be is something that will be made clear next January.

 

Prophecies and foretellings are an intricate part of the books. From the start, it was clear that Rand would eventually win; but the how is the mystery and mystic of the books. Another point is how prophecies and omens are interpreted. The different interpretations allow for a lesser degree of certainty.

 

What I was saying basically was that Egwene started thinking of Rand as the Dragon Reborn and another piece in a game instead of someone who used to be her friend and needs her to cooperate with him.

 

Yet we know that Rand provoked her intentionally to achieve something for him. Was he really counting on her cooperation? Or did he "throw oil on the White Tower" for something else?

 

I agree that there needs to be cooperation between Rand and the White Tower. He is the leader of the Light in the Last Battle; and the White Tower will be a valuable asset to have. My opinion is that Egwene cooperated with Rand as much as she could after their meeting. She agreed to his condition to meet in the Field of Merrilor in one month's time to discuss the seals and other issues. On her part, preparing for all eventualities, or even taking an initial position of objection to Rand's unformulated plan till it is clarified, is what a leader is supposed to do.

[RandA lThor]

I think her role has already been completed, not saying that she won't have any more. She has successfully pretty much combined the world powers together to get ready to fight the DO.

[XXX]

 

 

Of course Rand manipulated her. I never said otherwise. But he manipulated her. He could have asked one of the rulers sworn to him to do it. If he wanted to not appear to favor those, he could have asked Elayne to do it. Why take the risk of antagonizing Egwene (and from his conversation with Nynaeve, he clearly doesn't want Egwene pissed with him) to achieve something he could achieve himself with a few words and a few gateways?

 

 

Let us see who Egwene gathered. Elayne(Rand's lover), Darlin (Rand's Steward) and Gregorin(Rand's Steward). The Aiel,Borderlanders and the Arad Doman king along with Perrin are summoned by Rand. Out of the 3 rulers Egwene gathered all 3 are linked to Rand more than Egwene. So the question is why did he not call them himself. Well Egwene brings along the WT the only group at FOM he could not gather. So he tricked Egwene into bringing the WT for some reason which we will know in the next book.

 

 

 

The Amyrlin could never summon the Aiel, and wouldn't have ever wanted to summon a Dreadlord. As for Tuon, no Egwene can't summon her, but Tuon is worried day and night about the Tower and ending its control, which is indicative of how powerful the WT is within Randland.

 

 

The Amrylin could summon anyone in Randland. Now, the Aiel are in Randland she cannot summon them. The Seachan control 1/3 of Rand Land, she cannot summon them. I just took Taim's name as the head of the BT but it could be anyone else and again she cannot summon that person. These 3 groups are militarily the 3 most powerful groups in Randland and the Amyrlin has no power over them. A steep fall from the absolute power that Siuan had don't you think?

 

 

It wasn't just the pragmatic consideration that drove her here:

 

"Will we insist that all angreal and sa'angreal created for men belong to us, though we cannot use them? What if there are Asha'man who learn to create objects of Power? Will we force them to give up everything they create to us? Could we enforce that?"

 

Egwene makes a clear distinction between "will" and "could". She doesn't think they can force Asha'man to not use angreal, nor does she think it is right to.

 

 

So, your argument is that if the Red Ajah could get away with gentling the men, she would be okay with that happening? When she couldn't stomach a False Dragon being stilled or killed?

 

She could not stomach it? She did not still Logain because she was afraid on how it would come across to Rand. Not because of compassion. And yes I think she would keep the WT in the supreme position if she could. But she is pragmatic enough to see that the power of the WT has shrunk quite a lot so she has made concessions to save what she can of the WT influence.

 

BTW it is unnatural the high place of women in a low tech environment like Randland.The only reason for it is that women could channel safely in the last 3000 years and that influence has filtered down to all levels of society. Now that the men can channel too, the equation is balanced and a low tech world the balance will swiftly change to the way our own world has been except for the last 50 years. The AS as a woman organization cannot be a supreme group any more.

[XXX]

Well, it may not have been in that moment, but in that sentence, you can still see that she doesn't think of him as a person who makes mistakes, but as a figure who needs to correct himself. This may not state directly that she thinks he should be controlled, but it still implies it. At least, that's the message I got when I read this passage.

 

But the Ashaman are Rand's responsibility. He created the BT from scratch without inheriting any problems. And he disregarded Taim's ambitions and suspicious actions to create his weapons.

 

Egwene stated that Rand would need guidance and that the WT should have been the source of that guidance. But that is different from "control." In fact, she is against controlling Rand since that will prevent him from fulfilling the prophecies.

 

Not sure why AM bonding AS became a crime. If not for Rand's instructions the AS would have been killed and it would be perfectly justified. Egwene should have thanked Rand for not allowing the AM to kill the AS.

[Maleshub]

Let us see who Egwene gathered. Elayne(Rand's lover), Darlin (Rand's Steward) and Gregorin(Rand's Steward). The Aiel,Borderlanders and the Arad Doman king along with Perrin are summoned by Rand. Out of the 3 rulers Egwene gathered all 3 are linked to Rand more than Egwene. So the question is why did he not call them himself. Well Egwene brings along the WT the only group at FOM he could not gather. So he tricked Egwene into bringing the WT for some reason which we will know in the next book.

 

That's a nice explanation of why Rand went to the WT. And it is one of the better explanations on the issue. The thing is that Elayne is fully committed to Egwene pre-FoM. She isn't in Rand's camp at all.

 

Not sure why AM bonding AS became a crime. If not for Rand's instructions the AS would have been killed and it would be perfectly justified. Egwene should have thanked Rand for not allowing the AM to kill the AS.

 

Who said it was a crime? On the contrary, it saved the lives of 50+ Aes Sedai. The "criminal" element in the bonding is that it was done without the consent of the bonded Aes Sedai. Whatever Alanna got for her rape-bonding of Rand applies to the Ashaman who bonded the Aes Sedai.

[RandA lThor]

Also, Darlin and gregorin didn't sound like they were in rand's camp when they responded to that letter.

[Maleshub]

Also, Darlin and gregorin didn't sound like they were in rand's camp when they responded to that letter.

 

Elayne had thrown her lot with Egwene. Darlin on the other hand was more balanced in his reply. He acknowledged his allegiance to Rand while honoring the Amyrlin's request to come to the FoM to discuss the seals.

[Durinax]

Not sure why AM bonding AS became a crime. If not for Rand's instructions the AS would have been killed and it would be perfectly justified. Egwene should have thanked Rand for not allowing the AM to kill the AS.

 

Who said it was a crime? On the contrary, it saved the lives of 50+ Aes Sedai. The "criminal" element in the bonding is that it was done without the consent of the bonded Aes Sedai. Whatever Alanna got for her rape-bonding of Rand applies to the Ashaman who bonded the Aes Sedai.

I am not sure, but I think he is speaking in the context of the books. And I dont think that the AS shuold get what alanna got (which ended up being nothing officially) because they did it to infact save their lives, not just to try and exert control.

 

 

 

as for gregorin, he is obviously hesitant, rulers of randland obviously remember that the WT has a long history of being political, so he does not want to be like "no, go away"