Olver, Elayne, and Caemlyn

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nar, Min hasn't told Rand. Not "on screen" and Rand has never thought about it once. It is highly unlikely she did. I am sure it would have been mentioned if someone told him.

[RandA lThor]

I agree. I think that they are keeping the surprise of Rand's children for when he sees her in person to get him even more surprised.

[EmperorMayhem]

maybe they're keeping it from him because they don't want to adversely affect the last battle.... is Elayne showing yet?

[RandA lThor]

yes, elayne is currently showing. People can tell that she is pregnant when they see her. I don't remember who, but someone (I think Mat) saw that elayne was pregnant and elayne told him it was rand. I think that BS is saving it for somewhere when elayne and rand meet in the middle of something important and rand is like "Wait a bloody moment, you're pregnant! And you didn't tell me!". I can picture this happening right now.

[condonmc]

yes, elayne is currently showing. People can tell that she is pregnant when they see her. I don't remember who, but someone (I think Mat) saw that elayne was pregnant and elayne told him it was rand. I think that BS is saving it for somewhere when elayne and rand meet in the middle of something important and rand is like "Wait a bloody moment, you're pregnant! And you didn't tell me!". I can picture this happening right now.

Nyn had that exact same reaction in ToM for Eguene's dream meeting when she saw Elayne....

[RandA lThor]

Yeah, it makes sense that Rand would be surprised by Elayne's pregnancy and wouldn't be just like oh yeah, you have a baby. Also, because of the warder bond, can Rand feel anything related to te babies?

 

Oh, and back on the original topic, what else do you think Olver could do to help Caemlyn and who else would come to help?

[Mhaliah]

I have had thoughts that Oliver is Gaidal Cain rewoven. The timing of Oliver being found is at about the time the Cain is respun in the series, and while this means that Oliver was born before the books mention Cain being respun, but there are pointed efforts to makes sure that readers know that "time is different" in Tel'ara'rhiod. Cain is always a man who wields two swords though. I guess we will see if Oliver gets another knife :)

 

Just a thought.

[FarShainMael]

Everybody thinks that at first - I certainly did - but it's wrong, I'm afraid. Have a look here for the tag 'olvercain'.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

 

As for Olver's function in Caemlyn.. who knows. Ideas are welcome!

[RandA lThor]

I still really like the idea of Olver running into the middle of FoM when everyone else is really mad and tells everyone Caemlyn is being attacked. Then he goes back and helps the men with the dragons. What do you think about this theory?

[RandA lThor]

I have had thoughts that Oliver is Gaidal Cain rewoven. The timing of Oliver being found is at about the time the Cain is respun in the series, and while this means that Oliver was born before the books mention Cain being respun, but there are pointed efforts to makes sure that readers know that "time is different" in Tel'ara'rhiod. Cain is always a man who wields two swords though. I guess we will see if Oliver gets another knife :)

 

Just a thought.

 

I don't know if this is possible or even plausible at all, but Gaidal Cain being Elayne's babies. Maybe when he disappears, he still is isn't alive but about to be born.

[Suttree]

I have had thoughts that Oliver is Gaidal Cain rewoven. The timing of Oliver being found is at about the time the Cain is respun in the series, and while this means that Oliver was born before the books mention Cain being respun, but there are pointed efforts to makes sure that readers know that "time is different" in Tel'ara'rhiod. Cain is always a man who wields two swords though. I guess we will see if Oliver gets another knife :)

 

Just a thought.

 

I don't know if this is possible or even plausible at all, but Gaidal Cain being Elayne's babies. Maybe when he disappears, he still is isn't alive but about to be born.

 

We know per RJ Olver is not Gaidal Cain. The timing doesn't work, Olver is too old.

 

Edit: FSM beat me to it...

[TootThatHorn]

no more olver=cain, i cant take it lol i fancied that thought and reasoned it out by the next page

[RandA lThor]

still, has there been a theory or a response on Elayne's children being Gaidal Cain

[Barid Bel Medar]

still, has there been a theory or a response on Elayne's children being Gaidal Cain

 

Yes, they are not Cain. They are most likely Calian and Shiva. Heralds of a new age.

 

Cain has already been reborn.

[Mr Ares]

still, has there been a theory or a response on Elayne's children being Gaidal Cain

Given that souls can't be split, clearly Cain cannot be Elayne's babies, even if he could be one of them.

[toss the dice]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

[baalsmistress]

Or we're overthinking it in this thread, and "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" indeed means he goes to SG and gets himself deadified

[RandA lThor]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

 

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

[Sheepherder]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

 

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

 

The SG rock at BT and the prophecy wording does leave room for a bit of speculation but it is pretty guaranteed from the other part of the same section of prophecy, "in the pit of doom shall his blood free man.. ", that it will be shed AT SG. I'm a fan of his blood being shed twice. There seems to be a lot of that with Rand (two herrins, two dragons, twice dawns, etc.) so I don't think it's a stretch assuming his blood will be shed twice (on SG rocks at two different places) but one will almost definitely be at SG.

[RandA lThor]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

 

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

 

The SG rock at BT and the prophecy wording does leave room for a bit of speculation but it is pretty guaranteed from the other part of the same section of prophecy, "in the pit of doom shall his blood free man.. ", that it will be shed AT SG. I'm a fan of his blood being shed twice. There seems to be a lot of that with Rand (two herrins, two dragons, twice dawns, etc.) so I don't think it's a stretch assuming his blood will be shed twice (on SG rocks at two different places) but one will almost definitely be at SG.

I forgot about this prophecy Sheepherder. Yes, he can bleed twice, and that would still support my theory, but now I think that it may be more convenient for it to be all at once. After all, we have seen overlapping prophecies before. Don't have a specific example right now, but I remember thinking that a certain prophecy overlapped with another.

[Sheepherder]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

 

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

 

The SG rock at BT and the prophecy wording does leave room for a bit of speculation but it is pretty guaranteed from the other part of the same section of prophecy, "in the pit of doom shall his blood free man.. ", that it will be shed AT SG. I'm a fan of his blood being shed twice. There seems to be a lot of that with Rand (two herrins, two dragons, twice dawns, etc.) so I don't think it's a stretch assuming his blood will be shed twice (on SG rocks at two different places) but one will almost definitely be at SG.

I forgot about this prophecy Sheepherder. Yes, he can bleed twice, and that would still support my theory, but now I think that it may be more convenient for it to be all at once. After all, we have seen overlapping prophecies before. Don't have a specific example right now, but I remember thinking that a certain prophecy overlapped with another.

 

Well don't give me too much credit. Someone else pointed out that same part of the prophecy to me as well a while back when I had pretty much the same idea you did about the BT rock.

[RandA lThor]

Just a quick comment. I think one important aspect about the whole blood and Shayol Ghul is the use of the word of. "His blood on the rocks OF Shayol Ghul." Not his blood on the rocks AT Shayol Ghul. I think this has to do with something none of us have thought of yet (not the black tower rock either).

 

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

 

The SG rock at BT and the prophecy wording does leave room for a bit of speculation but it is pretty guaranteed from the other part of the same section of prophecy, "in the pit of doom shall his blood free man.. ", that it will be shed AT SG. I'm a fan of his blood being shed twice. There seems to be a lot of that with Rand (two herrins, two dragons, twice dawns, etc.) so I don't think it's a stretch assuming his blood will be shed twice (on SG rocks at two different places) but one will almost definitely be at SG.

I forgot about this prophecy Sheepherder. Yes, he can bleed twice, and that would still support my theory, but now I think that it may be more convenient for it to be all at once. After all, we have seen overlapping prophecies before. Don't have a specific example right now, but I remember thinking that a certain prophecy overlapped with another.

 

Well don't give me too much credit. Someone else pointed out that same part of the prophecy to me as well a while back when I had pretty much the same idea you did about the BT rock.

 

Still, it's a very good observation by whoever told you. That is a major point that may disprove or make this theory less likely.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

One of the things that I feel foreshadowed the Battle of Caemlyn is in Mat's visit to Elayne and how his military mind saw the Inner City as designed to stand if the "Outer City" fell; and how the Palace can stand if the inner city were under attack.

 

 

One assumes this is how it went down during the Trolloc Wars. The Inner City dates back to Coremanda, so obviously the old outer city must have been razed by Trollocs during the Wars.

[Mr Ares]

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

They made the revelation because they were asked. Given that they are inclined to keep important plot details secret, I would say that this suggests the BT featuring SG stone is something of a non-factor. An interesting tidbit, perhaps, but not relevant from a plot perspective. If it does play a part in the books, it would have to be mentioned in the books. Why spoil the surprise if it will come up in AMOL?

[RandA lThor]

You have a point. Why is that wording so specificif it is just supposed to mean at Shayol Ghul. Also, why else would they make the revelation that the Black Tower is made up of rocks from Shayol Ghul? It seems fishy.

They made the revelation because they were asked. Given that they are inclined to keep important plot details secret, I would say that this suggests the BT featuring SG stone is something of a non-factor. An interesting tidbit, perhaps, but not relevant from a plot perspective. If it does play a part in the books, it would have to be mentioned in the books. Why spoil the surprise if it will come up in AMOL?

Mr. Ares, you have a point, but they have given us some information to keep us guessing. Besides, this was just foreshadowing, not actually giving something away. They are just hinting that the rocks might be Rand at the Black Tower. Also, I remember someone saying that the BT was Rand's business and he may take that to heart. I can see him and Logain owning Taim.