The corrupted Ashaman can be saved (or killed)

[Anton]

Hello!

This is my first post here on Dragonmount but i've lurked around for a long time!

 

My theory is that the ashaman in the black tower who seem to be turned into darkfriends using the 13x13 trick can all be saved or killed off.

 

First lets talk about darkfriends. Normally they show no signs of changing their personality after swearing the oaths to the dark one. Verin is a good example of this as well as the many darkfriends we have had a POV from. The ashaman on the other hand have changed quite a lot in personality and beliefs. This leads me to question what has happened to them.

 

Now lets talk about the 13x13 trick. Not much is known about it aside from the fact that is is possible and it involves 13 channelers and 13 myrdraal. No known side effects have been mentioned in the books.

My point here is the myrdraal involved, my theory is that when doing the 13x13 trick the person being turned is bound to either a myrdraal or a channeler in the same way a trolloc can be bound to a myrdraal and share the myrdraals fate should it die.

 

This might mean that if the myrdraal or chaneller (Taim? Moridin?) is killed then all the ashaman will die as well. However, men are not constructs like trollocs and may instead be free of the 13x13 trick should their master die.

 

What say you?

 

I realise this theory has a lot of unanwered questions ans loose speculation but i'm not as into all the facts as a lot of you on this forum so i thought i might get some help to bash this theory =)

[ChaosBorn]

Personally I think that this could be possible, or something along the same lines.

 

The main reason is Nicola's fortelling "The Guardians balance the Servants" meaning there will be the same number of Asha'man as Aes Sedai, which I think will have taken a beating my the Seanchan by then. Still my impression is that a significant number of Asha'man are alligned with Taim so there must be a way to save the majority of them.

 

Also Rand needs them for Tarmon Gai'don. On a side note I hope a lot of Aes Sedai and Asha'man make a MASSIVE circle and literally destroy an insane amount of trollocs.

[yoniy0]

Firstly, I wanted to remind everyone that about half the BT is away seeing to Rand's orders, so Taim's efforts should be taken in some perspective. Still, I do believe he will have the number of DF male channelers at least equal to that of the female ones (at a few hundreds) by the time he's done.

 

Now, here are some relevant quotes:

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Ayyad Azryelle reporting

Q: Can people who were forced to become Darkfriends through a 13-13 circle be saved?

Brandon: He said he couldn't give an answer, but that the characters from the books would say yes.

[FarShainMael]

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

So, with some serious aid, it's possible - if unlikely, and difficult.

 

[ChaosBorn]

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

So, with some serious aid, it's possible - if unlikely, and difficult.

 

And what aid is better than the Creators Champion, the Dragon Reborn?

[Jemlin]

Honestly, it would probably just take Nynaeve finding out about it and having the desire to cure them. She seems to be able to cure nearly anything. Though, I wonder if it would take the strength of a full circle.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Honestly, it would probably just take Nynaeve finding out about it and having the desire to cure them. She seems to be able to cure nearly anything. Though, I wonder if it would take the strength of a full circle.

 

Funny that she thinks about going to the BT and healing the Asha'man of their madness. Obviously a simple explaination, but a hint she will also go and find out about the turnings and heal that?

 

As for the bonding like Myrddraal to Trollocs, I don' think so, although I cant disprove it.

 

I just think that it suppresses the "Light" and amplifies the "Dark", nothing more.

 

The way to heal it, simply correct the balance. (I do not mean simply, as in the weave is easy, but simply as in it doesn't involve bonds to Myddraal or more complicated matters)

[yoniy0]

So, with some serious aid, it's possible - if unlikely, and difficult.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

[Sharaman]

If it's anything like other weaves, the 13x13 effect will linger even if the entire Circle that triggers it, dies.

However, we've seen enough examples of weaves being unpicked/ removed, It's possible that such a method exists.

[Edynol]

I think it can be reversed with the aid of 13 Ogier. lol.

[ShowMeYourRage]

Good topic.

 

I don't think the Darkfriend channelers are bound to Myrddraal. I think the ritual involves filtering True Power from the genetics of the Myrdraal. Its difficult to channel the True Power without the Dark Ones permission; maybe you need willing Myrdraal, or a Chosen to command them, perhaps this is a substitute for direct permission.

 

I think contact with the True Power is what causes the personality change. Not weaves, but to literally channel it or have it poured into you. (Which would imply that Rand literally was 13x13ed when he channeled it). This would be understandable, because only channelers can be 13x13ed. Who knows? Maybe the group of 13 get the victim into the circle, funnel TP from the Myrddraal, then hand over control of the flows to the victim while the True Power is flowing. As soon as it's in, they become evil...

 

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

So, with some serious aid, it's possible - if unlikely, and difficult.

 

And what aid is better than the Creators Champion, the Dragon Reborn?

 

+1.A Ta'veren being present could quite easily count as aid on that front.

 

I think the Darkfriend Ashaman are the men Rand will free from the Shadow. I always imagined that to be more specific than simply getting rid of the Shadow, I expected it to be severing connections and the like.

[TaiSharManetheren]

I'm gonna say if anything the forces of Light will Nynaeve them back into the fold. She's cured the taint madness, she can probably cure anything short of death at this point.