Demandred or Aginor who were the strongest/most powerfull

[ballfire23]

they are both very strong, and often regarded as 2nd behind Lews Therin and Ishamael, but it is hard to guess who are the strongest of the two, just qutiour, since it is hard to make an accurate map over strenght in power, compared with all the forsaken, and the new strong channelers, like Logain, Taim, and some of the Ashaman,

 

but who are strongest between the two so called 2nd after the the Dragon and the Betreyer of Hope, are they equal or are one a bit above the other, Aginor seems to be the most clumsy of the forsakem and not very lucky while Demandred is very lucky and hard to find,

 

but who are the strongest, like that matters, i just want to find that out

[Nightstrike]

I think it's impossible to know for sure. The Guide seems to place Aginor and/or Lanfear as second Forsaken after Ishy. The preface makes everything in the Guide less than 100% certain. Aginor was fearful, and he might not have been performing so well. Because of clumsiness, and/or whatever else ... When Rand assessed Aginor's/Dashiva's strength, Dashiva didn't impress so much. Maybe Dashiva managed to hold back, but then the men can sense strain. Maybe they weren't expected to show that much strain, or maybe Dashiva could indeed fake it. Or maybe Rand was closer to his maximum strength than I thought and/or underestimated Dashiva's strength - as I read the passages, at least.

 

In short, it seems to be up to debate.

[MasterAblar]

Aginor is clearly stated to be second only to Ishamael among the Forsaken, and not by much. He was very close behind LTT and Ishamael.

 

Demandred is said to be almost as strong as LTT, and symbolicaly he was always second to LTT almost nothing. RJ described as constantly losing a race on photo finish. To me that means that he is either so close to Aginor as makes no difference, just like Semirhage and Nyneave, or else Aginor is just barely ahead of him.

[Nightstrike]

Aginor is clearly stated to be second only to Ishamael among the Forsaken, and not by much. He was very close behind LTT and Ishamael.

The Guide said so, and he might very well be second. The preface makes things having to do with the Age of Legends less than 100% certain. Many things in the Guide have to do with things that happened later (or are of an ongoing nature), of course.

[MasterAblar]

Aginor is clearly stated to be second only to Ishamael among the Forsaken, and not by much. He was very close behind LTT and Ishamael.

The Guide said so, and he might very well be second. The preface makes things having to do with the Age of Legends less than 100% certain. Many things in the Guide have to do with things that happened later (or are of an ongoing nature), of course.

 

True, although Moiraine said the same. Of course, she, like the author of the Guide, is from the third age and could be mistaken about thing having to do with the Age of Legends. I make the same argument in Lanfear's case. However, Moiraine also said only the strongest could have used the Eye. That's still Moiraine though. Aginor was also very close behind Rand in strength in aCoS. He probably would have held back if his real strength surpassed Rand's at the time. He also made a very large gateway, and gateway size is typically, unless one is particularly talented with the weave, like Androl, proportionaly to one's strength. Lastly, RJ said that if it had come down to a fight between Aginor and Balthamel for the Eye Balthamel would have had no chance, and Balthamel is said to be quite strong himself, which implies that Aginor's strength must be truly be impressive.

 

To me, nothing ever seems to contradict the Guide and Moiraine's statement that he is second strongest. And without that, I don't really see any reason to to doubt their word.

[Nightstrike]

To me, nothing ever seems to contradict the Guide and Moiraine's statement that he is second strongest. And without that, I don't really see any reason to to doubt their word.

Maybe "contradict" is too strong a word. I wouldn't exactly say there's anything that definitely, without a doubt, contradicts the Guide (=Moiraine's source, as you said yourself).

[MasterAblar]

To me, nothing ever seems to contradict the Guide and Moiraine's statement that he is second strongest. And without that, I don't really see any reason to to doubt their word.

Maybe "contradict" is too strong a word. I wouldn't exactly say there's anything that definitely, without a doubt, contradicts the Guide (=Moiraine's source, as you said yourself).

 

Well, is there anything that even possibly suggests that they might be mistaken about Aginor?

[Nightstrike]

Well, is there anything that even possibly suggests that they might be mistaken about Aginor?

Yes, and I've mentioned some of it. Not by quoting the things, but I bet you have the Guide and also know where to look up the Dashiva stuff.

[MasterAblar]

Well, is there anything that even possibly suggests that they might be mistaken about Aginor?

Yes, and I've mentioned some of it. Not by quoting the things, but I bet you have the Guide and also know where to look up the Dashiva stuff.

 

I don't have the Guide actually, though I wish I did. As for Dashiva, it's at the beginning of the last chapter of aCoS. It's just a single line saying that Dashiva was holding nearly as much as Rand could. We don't know how strong Rand is at this point though, but Dashiva could easely hold back if needs to not draw attention to himself. Rand wouldn't be able to sense it if Dashiva was holding back. In any case, Aginor is a poor fighter to begin with.

[Nightstrike]

I don't have the Guide actually, though I wish I did. As for Dashiva, it's at the beginning of the last chapter of aCoS. It's just a single line saying that Dashiva was holding nearly as much as Rand could. We don't know how strong Rand is at this point though, but Dashiva could easely hold back if needs to not draw attention to himself. Rand wouldn't be able to sense it if Dashiva was holding back. In any case, Aginor is a poor fighter to begin with.

ACoS:

Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

Demandred is "almost as strong" as Lews Therin, and Aginor "came close to rivaling" Lews Therin. That sounds about the same. Maybe they are equal?

 

The preface is mostly an explanation of how the information was gathered, and how only fragments of stuff survived the Breaking. Although the Guide is more about later things/ongoing things than it is about the Breaking/AoL.

 

I'd like to read Harriet's encyclopedia. I wonder when that comes out?

[MasterAblar]

Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

Yeah, that caught my attention too. The thing is though, how would Rand know if they're filled to Saidin near to overflowing? Is it because he knows how strong they are, or how strong he thinks they are? Or could he feel them straining? Not to mention Rand just woke up after sleeping for 2 days. It's difficult to make any definite conclusions off this passage.

 

Demandred is "almost as strong" as Lews Therin, and Aginor "came close to rivaling" Lews Therin. That sounds about the same. Maybe they are equal?

 

The preface is mostly an explanation of how the information was gathered, and how only fragments of stuff survived the Breaking. Although the Guide is more about later things/ongoing things than it is about the Breaking/AoL.

 

I'd like to read Harriet's encyclopedia. I wonder when that comes out?

 

I agree, I think that they're probably about equal in power.

[Guest Raolin Damodred]

In my opinion aginor maybe be stronger in raw strength but he isn't as battle tested as demandred. AginOr is more of an inventor/ mad scientist before a general.

[A Rant Lord]

I agree with Raolin here, Aginor was a scientist, Demandred a battle hardened general used to fight. It's like you put a lab-rat on steroids vs Bob Sapp, they might have the same muscle strenght, Bobby will win

[kght22]

this is clearly out of context, but where else to say it.

 

if this is true:

"The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength. Before he turned to the Dark, he was Ishar Morrad Chuain, one of the foremost biological scientists of the Age of Legends. If available sources can be believed, he understood “the most basic structures of living things” better than anyone else in the Age. It is certain that he chafed under the widely held belief that there was nothing left to discover, only an occasional loose end to tuck in. His work apparently concerned new variations of plant life, both as crops and as ornamentals, but he was disciplined more than once for unauthorized work on animals."

 

i feel for the man, i understand him being chastised for his work on animals, one can imagine just how f*#$ed up that might have been, but if the general belief was that there was nothing new to discover, i'd have to say shame on the age of legends.

 

edit: demandred is most notable for his jealousy of ltt's accomplishments, his strength in the power isn't mentioned in the bwb,(EDIT: i pooped myself with that statement) and in general strength in the power isn't considered important in the age of legends from the information provided. demandred was nearly as prestigious in his accomplishments serving humanity as lews therin, but was constantly one upped by him. but while it is clear that he was near the dragon and the betrayer in power, there is no evidence of how near he was, he could have just been smarter.

 

(the quote is from the bwb)

[Nightstrike]

Aginor joined the Shadow early, but Demandred fought for the Light at first. In a world where people just tried to survive in an ever changing world for centuries, and just fragments of records may have survived, there's always the possibility that Aginor's "second" statement came from an assessment made before people knew Demandred had turned to the Shadow.

 

but who are the strongest, like that matters, i just want to find that out

I agree that it probably wouldn't have mattered in a real fight between the two. Aginor would probably have lost even if he was a little stronger.

 

Clarification: I'm definitely not saying that one is stronger than the other.