Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Yet serve still


Randommer
 Share

Recommended Posts

Here be the prophecy in question, from TGH, chapter 6:

 

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,

yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, blood was, and blood shall ever be."

 

It's from the segment of Dark Prophecy the trollocs wrote on the cell-wall in Fal Dara. It's the 'yet serve still' part that confuses me. Theories:

1. A lot of people thought this may have refered to Moridin, who did of course die as Ishamael, and that there was something going on there. But when crafty individuals (forget who; probably Terez) asked BS if Moridin was gay, he said he had no idea and it wasn't in the notes. So, yeah.

 

2. That it's Rand. I was never sure about that because of the serving stuff, but as of ToM it does look quite likely that Rand may serve Mierin in some way, and die as a result of that or something else, before coming back to life and maybe or maybe not dying again. But the 'yet serve still' part? It just seems highly unlikely that Lanfear would manage to dupe him twice in one book.

 

3. That it's someone else. Not very likely, really. Unless she and Demandred have been meeting on the DL.

 

So, it's almost definitely refering to Rand. But my only notion on the 'yet serve still' part is that it's something to do with TAR. As others have said, Rand will presumably end up there after he's killed, being a hero of the horn and all, and many have speculated that he may get dragged out like Birgitte. But who's master of TAR? Lanfear. I'm not sure how exactly she would out-TAR the Dragon when he has all his eons of memories, as the heroes do when they're dead, but maybe Rand is somehow captured by the Shadow or the DO after his death, and has to be rescued.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Randommer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think it's a tricky bit of prophetic verse that was actually true in that it stated Lanfear's intended path, even if she never fulfilled it. Rand, of course, and I'm guessing that "dies, yet serves still" is a variation on the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." where he seems meant to die, and live again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, that's a fun one. Lanfear has some weird part to play yet, and I can't figure out what it is, though it seems to be connected to Rand's "I can't kill a woman because stupidity is genetic" problem. He didn't really say "I can't kill a woman" about many other people (except Semirhage, and her only briefly, before he, uh, killed her). He tried to protect the Maidens, but that's kind of different. But the whole scene with Moiraine and Lanfear in TFOH centers around Rand laughing crazily to himself in paralysis at an inability to do anything to Lanfear because she's a woman, and I think he said the same sort of thing several times before in earlier books.

 

It also seems to have something to do with Lanfear's "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" tendencies. She drilled the Bore and unleashed the Dark One, but it was apparently by accident. She keeps wanting to supersede the DO and the Creator, not serve the DO. She loves (or something) Lews Therin/Rand.

 

Along the same lines, the DO seems very angry with her. I mean, when Aginor and Balthamel needed to be resurrected, they got to be Osan'gar and Aran'gar. When Lanfear needed to be resurrected, she's mindtrapped. The mindtrap isn't just a mark of failure, or else the 'gars would have them. It's a mark of the DO's anger and desire to control her. And there's that wacky bit at the end of ToM where she says that she's being tortured.

 

And then we've got the prophecy.

 

The most natural reading of the prophecy is that Rand saves Lanfear from the DO's torture (because she's secretly good? because she repents? because he can't bear to see a woman come to harm?), then he dies, but in dying he keeps her from the DO even so, though I'm not sure how. Maybe sealing the Bore shields the whole world off from the DO's touch, so when Lanfear dies after the Bore is sealed, she doesn't get the kind of torture that Asmodean presumably experiences for his betrayal. This doesn't seem like a very satisfying explanation, though. Maybe he dies defending her from the DO and one of his superpowers is to protect her. Maybe her new lover is actually Moiraine, because they became pillow friends during their captivity in Finnland. Heck, I don't know.

 

The Shining Walls shall kneel? Huh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think it's a tricky bit of prophetic verse that was actually true in that it stated Lanfear's intended path, even if she never fulfilled it. Rand, of course, and I'm guessing that "dies, yet serves still" is a variation on the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." where he seems meant to die, and live again.

 

That's a good one. It doesn't say that he still serves Lanfear. It just says that he still serves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think it's a tricky bit of prophetic verse that was actually true in that it stated Lanfear's intended path, even if she never fulfilled it. Rand, of course, and I'm guessing that "dies, yet serves still" is a variation on the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." where he seems meant to die, and live again.

 

That's a good one. It doesn't say that he still serves Lanfear. It just says that he still serves.

 

I like it!

 

The Shining Walls = the White Tower, I think?

Edited by FarShainMael
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here be the prophecy in question, from TGH, chapter 6:

 

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,

yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, blood was, and blood shall ever be."

 

It's from the segment of Dark Prophecy the trollocs wrote on the cell-wall in Fal Dara. It's the 'yet serve still' part that confuses me. Theories:

1. A lot of people thought this may have refered to Moridin, who did of course die as Ishamael, and that there was something going on there. But when crafty individuals (forget who; probably Terez) asked BS if Moridin was gay, he said he had no idea and it wasn't in the notes. So, yeah.

 

2. That it's Rand. I was never sure about that because of the serving stuff, but as of ToM it does look quite likely that Rand may serve Mierin in some way, and die as a result of that or something else, before coming back to life and maybe or maybe not dying again. But the 'yet serve still' part? It just seems highly unlikely that Lanfear would manage to dupe him twice in one book.

 

3. That it's someone else. Not very likely, really. Unless she and Demandred have been meeting on the DL.

 

So, it's almost definitely refering to Rand. But my only notion on the 'yet serve still' part is that it's something to do with TAR. As others have said, Rand will presumably end up there after he's killed, being a hero of the horn and all, and many have speculated that he may get dragged out like Birgitte. But who's master of TAR? Lanfear. I'm not sure how exactly she would out-TAR the Dragon when he has all his eons of memories, as the heroes do when they're dead, but maybe Rand is somehow captured by the Shadow or the DO after his death, and has to be rescued.

 

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here be the prophecy in question, from TGH, chapter 6:

 

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,

yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, blood was, and blood shall ever be."

 

It's from the segment of Dark Prophecy the trollocs wrote on the cell-wall in Fal Dara. It's the 'yet serve still' part that confuses me. Theories:

1. A lot of people thought this may have refered to Moridin, who did of course die as Ishamael, and that there was something going on there. But when crafty individuals (forget who; probably Terez) asked BS if Moridin was gay, he said he had no idea and it wasn't in the notes. So, yeah.

 

2. That it's Rand. I was never sure about that because of the serving stuff, but as of ToM it does look quite likely that Rand may serve Mierin in some way, and die as a result of that or something else, before coming back to life and maybe or maybe not dying again. But the 'yet serve still' part? It just seems highly unlikely that Lanfear would manage to dupe him twice in one book.

 

3. That it's someone else. Not very likely, really. Unless she and Demandred have been meeting on the DL.

 

So, it's almost definitely refering to Rand. But my only notion on the 'yet serve still' part is that it's something to do with TAR. As others have said, Rand will presumably end up there after he's killed, being a hero of the horn and all, and many have speculated that he may get dragged out like Birgitte. But who's master of TAR? Lanfear. I'm not sure how exactly she would out-TAR the Dragon when he has all his eons of memories, as the heroes do when they're dead, but maybe Rand is somehow captured by the Shadow or the DO after his death, and has to be rescued.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: Sorry, my original post didn't format correctly.

 

I think there are several points of the prophecy that have been overlooked.

 

First, what ancient war is she fighting? Lanfear originally turned to the DO for vanity, power, and to pursue LT. There is no war here so what war is she fighting? I think this is important because the passage

 

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, blood was, and blood shall ever be."

 

speaks of family. This is just another way of saying blood is thicker than water. Blood feeds blood speaks of having children. Blood calls blood because a family stays together.

Blood is, blood was, and blood shall ever be is saying that in the end nothing is more important than family. Who is Lanfear's family? Did she have a child or does her line still live? I think there is more going on with her than we know about. It may be why she got the mind trap.

 

Also, I don't think this has anything to do with Rand/LT. She is seeking her new lover, not LT.

Edited by soulsipper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Shining Walls = the White Tower, I think?

Yes, but why are they kneeling in the general vicinity of Lanfear?

 

Oh, I know! Lanfear becomes the Amyrlin Seat! This is, of course, after she reveals that she's secretly been good this whole time, sort of Verin-style. Then Rand pledges fealty to her, dies, is resurrected by the DO, and pledges fealty to her again.

 

Um, suffice it to say that I don't have a reasonable interpretation of this prophecy.

Edited by Kelandon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that, to understand the prophecy, you have to look at it as a whole rather than pieces. The prophecy appears to have a set form, for each verse: a pair of matched couplets, a reference, and the refrain.

 

Breaking it down more specifically, it appears to be arranged as follows:

 

a. First couplet of verse - Descriptive text, lauding the accomplishments of the Shadow. Not actual prophecy, but a sneering jibe at what's been done to men... She who released the Dark One still fights that ancient war for him, the man who channels stands alone because of the DO's taint, the creation of a demonic parody of a man/beast who stands against everything natural (Isam/Luc) by the DO's devices.

 

b. Second couplet of verse - If-then prophecy based on the theme presented in the first couplet of the verse. Some obviously fulfilled, others not so obviously. Lanfear's success in her goal to subvert Rand dependent on someone with the power to stop her standing against her. We know from Moiraine that had she not stopped Lanfear, this path would have happened. Slayer represents prophecy of what is to come if the DO has his way. And so on, with verse less obviously interpreted.

 

c. Remaining verse - Prophecy that matches to the Karaethon Cycle, and represents what will be if the preceding verse is fulfilled as the DO wishes it. These prophecies -will- be fulfilled, but interpretation is a bugger. Example - the Aes Sedai (Shining Walls) are prophesied to kneel before Rand (and have done so). If Rand had ended up serving Lanfear, the Shining Walls would have knelt to her. Slayer's Hunt represents a part of the greater Change that the DO seeks, and if successful, a Time of Change will be at hand, one where men are twisted mockeries of flesh, where darkhounds kill those that cannot be changed, and even the animal kingdom is hopelessly subverted. Other verses? Not so easily interpreted, but appear to follow the same format.

 

d. Refrain - Prophecy, certainly, but so vague that it can be easily fulfilled and repeated without spoiling the understanding of the rest of the verses.

 

That's how I see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taim is her new lover. Taim in his struggle causes widespread destruction to the tower when he brings some of his men there but is killed in the fighting. Logain becomes the new head of the BT. Egwene is upset at Rand for some his Asha'men getting into confrontation with the Tower, thus the Amyrlins wrath. Logain will make a stand in defense of his brothers who died against the Aes Sedai who sought again to sabotage the Dragon from fulfilling his mission much like the original drama with Lews Therin and the 100 companions. Lanfear is thus surrounded by blood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taim is her new lover. Taim in his struggle causes widespread destruction to the tower when he brings some of his men there but is killed in the fighting. Logain becomes the new head of the BT. Egwene is upset at Rand for some his Asha'men getting into confrontation with the Tower, thus the Amyrlins wrath. Logain will make a stand in defense of his brothers who died against the Aes Sedai who sought again to sabotage the Dragon from fulfilling his mission much like the original drama with Lews Therin and the 100 companions. Lanfear is thus surrounded by blood.

 

The way the story is set up Pevara(BS awesome comment) and co look to play an integral role in helping Logain scour the BT of DFs. Very unlikely Egwene will be upset about that.

 

Secondly about the AoL AS they sabotaged nothing. Per RJ LTT's plan was flawed and it was a lucky thing LPD did not go along with it else Saidar would be tainted as well. Care to guess at the state of the world if both sides had been tainted? It is one of the reasons why Rand knows he can not try to do things the same way this time around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some interesting theories here. (I'm too lazy to quote a bunch of stuff; sorry.)

 

It is true that the 'yet serve still' doesn't necessarily refer to Lanfear. It is sort of worded to imply that, but then WoT prophecies are often misleading. It does mean that he serves someone, though. Could just be 'the world' I suppose, but this is dark prophecy after all, and it's usually implying something bad. Moridin/Ishamael has threatened to capture him after his death, many times. Maybe under the right circumstances, the DO could actually do it.

 

And although it's possible, I don't buy that the whole verse is refering to what might have happened if the fight with Moiraine had gone differently. Just seems too easy, particularly considering the ToM epilogue. Also, a verse of that prophecy seems to refer to things that happened after the Lanfear fight, that wouldn't have happened if Lanfear had captured Rand.

 

Hmmm... out of interest, does anyone know what chapter of TDR BS said that Chekhov's Gun was in?

Edited by Randommer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Emu on the Loose

This particular prophecy has either already come to pass or otherwise been averted, or it has yet to do so. If it has already happened or been prevented from happening, then it must have been connected to that day at the docks. If the prophecy has already come and gone, then that is where it went down because there is no other opportunity. If we tried really hard, and stretched the prophecy with lots of artistic license, I think we could argue that it was fulfilled in TFoH.

 

However, I think it's much more likely that we have yet to see this prophecy fulfilled. Although RJ was famously fond of giving half answers or no answers at all with regard to these kinds of questions, he never had much to say about this particular plot thread. And Brandon has issued a blanket ban on all Cyndane questions, saying simply that we should RAFO in AMoL. In this case, I think the conspicuous absence of information about Mierin's story arc is suggestive that she is integral in some way to the fulfillment of the main plot.

 

If I were to indulge in wishful thinking, the most satisfying explanation (for me) is that Mierin has been good this whole time and is trying to correct her mistake of creating the Bore. The next most satisfying explanation is that Lanfear wasn't lying when she said that she and not Ishy was in control of everything, and that her presumed torture and subservience to Moridin is all a ruse, and she is the biggest baddie Rand will end up having to fight. The common thread in both of these scenarios is that Mierin matters to the outcome of things, and that much I think is certain, even if I have no idea what shape her importance will take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've long thought this prophecy refers to events in tGS and TofM. The Daughter of Night walks again as Cyndane, the ancient war she yet fights (a warning that her entreaty to Rand is duplicitous). Who shall serve her and die? (Rand IS going to die after all, and she does seem to be playing him atm), and serve still (Rand, is some form, will live after he dies, allowing him to, for a time, serve still). The Shinning Walls shall kneel (a siege? Cyndane using Rand against Tar Valon?)

 

Same goes for the next paragraph. The man who channels stands alone. (As indeed Rand does in tGS), He gives his friends for sacrifice (consider his conversation with Nynaeve about Lan. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays? (if this isn't a solid description of the theme of Rand's arc in tGS, then I don't know what is... which hand shelters, which slays, exactly what he was wavering from with Cadsuane and Nynaeve--which path does he choose etc).

 

There are other equally suggestive comments that indicates the prophecy stretches beyond tGH--'again the seed slays ancient wrong' seems to clearly refer to the second Seanchan invasion, not the Falme invasion. Death is reaping and bodies failing and so forth as of CoT, the shadows hounds now course, Luc and Isam are playing their role.

 

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...