The Dark One vs The Creator

[glenkrasner]

Throughout the books, the Dark One has had a somewhat contstant role, we actualy get communication from him/her/it to some of the Chosen. But why has there been nothing like that from the Creator?

At first, I thought maybe the Creator was present in the form of the Pattern, but then thought better :) Is the Creator just relying on his instruments to so what is needed?

Also, when Avi was heading to Rhuid (I'll leave it at that since I dont have the books close by to check the spelling) she stopped to camp before entering, and was met by an old woman....was she someone special?

 

Just some thoughts.......

[Suttree]

Throughout the books, the Dark One has had a somewhat contstant role, we actualy get communication from him/her/it to some of the Chosen. But why has there been nothing like that from the Creator?

At first, I thought maybe the Creator was present in the form of the Pattern, but then thought better :) Is the Creator just relying on his instruments to so what is needed?

Also, when Avi was heading to Rhuid (I'll leave it at that since I dont have the books close by to check the spelling) she stopped to camp before entering, and was met by an old woman....was she someone special?

 

Just some thoughts.......

 

The Creator takes no part. Most likely the Creator said as much in the Caps letters at the end of EotW.

 

From RJ...

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

[Random Man]

Throughout the books, the Dark One has had a somewhat contstant role, we actualy get communication from him/her/it to some of the Chosen. But why has there been nothing like that from the Creator?

At first, I thought maybe the Creator was present in the form of the Pattern, but then thought better :) Is the Creator just relying on his instruments to so what is needed?

Also, when Avi was heading to Rhuid (I'll leave it at that since I dont have the books close by to check the spelling) she stopped to camp before entering, and was met by an old woman....was she someone special?

 

Just some thoughts.......

 

The Creator takes no part. Most likely the Creator said as much in the Caps letters at the end of EotW.

 

From RJ...

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

 

It is disputed that that was in fact the Creator speaking at the end of EoTW. I would say that the simple act of acknowledging his refusal to interfere is communication, which is in fact interference. Communication is an act of interference in which he were to bring certain creations of his to an awareness of his mindset, which could cause them to alter their own actions and change their destinies. The Dark One, however, has an active desire to interfere with creation and with the actions of the major players of the world, so it would make sense for him to state a goal or a determination, in this regard, that it would be unwise for him to act.

[Suttree]

Throughout the books, the Dark One has had a somewhat contstant role, we actualy get communication from him/her/it to some of the Chosen. But why has there been nothing like that from the Creator?

At first, I thought maybe the Creator was present in the form of the Pattern, but then thought better :) Is the Creator just relying on his instruments to so what is needed?

Also, when Avi was heading to Rhuid (I'll leave it at that since I dont have the books close by to check the spelling) she stopped to camp before entering, and was met by an old woman....was she someone special?

 

Just some thoughts.......

 

The Creator takes no part. Most likely the Creator said as much in the Caps letters at the end of EotW.

 

From RJ...

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

 

It is disputed that that was in fact the Creator speaking at the end of EoTW. I would say that the simple act of acknowledging his refusal to interfere is communication, which is in fact interference. Communication is an act of interference in which he were to bring certain creations of his to an awareness of his mindset, which could cause them to alter their own actions and change their destinies. The Dark One, however, has an active desire to interfere with creation and with the actions of the major players of the world, so it would make sense for him to state a goal or a determination, in this regard, that it would be unwise for him to act.

 

As I said not certain, but most likely. I actually believe it was an early bookism before RJ had fully fleshed out the world more than anything else.

 

As for the words themselves the fact that they just happen to match up with RJ's viewpoint on how the Creator relates to the world is rather telling I think.

[Tyzack]

It is disputed that that was in fact the Creator speaking at the end of EoTW.

 

At first I thought that was the creator, though on further consideration I think that is an early manifestation of the voice of LTT in Rand.

[Mystica]

I don't know what RJ had to say on the matter, but it makes sense to me that the Creator wouldn't personally interfere like the Dark One does.

 

Let's not forget that the Creator hàd interfered the first time the Dark One was out and did so in the form of imprisoning him in his box outside of reality. It was hùmans that opened that prision the Creator had put him in. So now, it must again be hùmans to fix their (as a race) own mistake. It doesn't matter that it wasn't Rand or Lews Therin that did the breaking of the prison, those that did belonged to the human race and I can easily understand any deity holding the entire accountable for what could be seen as a mutual responsibility. In a way, by not guarding against human's tendency to constantly 'want more' (whatever that more may be, even wisdom or the ability to help, which was the original reason of those boring in to the prison) the human race allowed this seed of weakness to grow in to a malicious selfishness. This (in my mind) is an example of shared responsibility and individual thinking is not in order here.

 

 

The Creator did his job when he imprisoned the Dark One. Humans interfered with that perfect job and created the mess they now have to clean up themselves. Otherwise, how will they ever learn? And yet, the Creator doesn't abandon his creation but gives them the tools they need in order to stand a chance. How they use those tools, however, is up to them.

 

 

 

The Dark One on the other hand has a personal and malicious interest in getting free. He doesn't care who sets him free, so long as he does get free. So, naturally, he'll get personally involved, especially now that it looks like the Creator's 'kids' have made a mess of things and 'dad' is letting them clean it up themselves. Any 'bully' (DO) who sees their quary unprotected will increase his/her efforts to dominate and terrorize, secure in the knowledge that the strong one (Creator) will not interfere.

 

It is a big gamble for the Creator to make, for sure. But personally I've always had the impression that when it comes to face to face, Creator vs Dark One, the DO is small potatoes in comparison. After all, the Creator imprisoned him before. Nothing says he can't do so again. The only reason (in my mind) he's not doing it now, is because the humans need to learn a lesson they had forgotten when the bore in to the prison the first time. It's not about me, myself and I. It's about 'us'.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I always figured the Pattern was the Creator’s way of keeping things on track w/o squashing free will. If things go too far off course he creates Ta'veren to help right the ship.

 

Now can the kids still burn down the house (let the DO out)? Of course they can. However, even though the Creator doesn't interfere directly, the Pattern and Ta'veren are there as cosmic fire extinguishers.

[Suttree]

The only reason (in my mind) he's not doing it now, is because the humans need to learn a lesson they had forgotten when the bore in to the prison the first time. It's not about me, myself and I. It's about 'us'.

 

Per RJ for the Creator there is a pretty big "me" in the equation...

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

[FarShainMael]

But what is a 'perfect creation'?

 

Is it one that fulfils its designed function? If so, what is that function?

 

Does that function include the ability to oppose a Power greater than itself (ie the Dark One)?

 

Surely its function must include the option of calling on One who can oppose its enemy - if requested to do so?

 

"ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

[Mystica]

Well that's where I differ from opinion with RJ (yes, I dare). I kind of think that a 'perfect' Creator wouldn't be preoccupied with his ego to the point of letting creation be destroyed just to preserve it. That is the hallmark of a petty and selfish person (as in human), not of a 'perfect' deity. So, in the interest of my enjoyment of the series (and this is very much to RJ's credit, that his work allows such freedom), I opt to look at it from my interpretation.

 

Because once you start with the 'perfect creator' tantrum thousands of things start to 'not' make sense. Why did the Creator not make the perfect human? The perfect Ogier? The perfect Aes Sedai? The perfect anything? Why are there so many 'mistakes' in all of his creation? In a perfect universe there is no more need to grow, to learn, to evolve, to mature, to explore, etc. There is no need to do anything, because what does one hope to achieve beyond perfection? In a perfect universe everything is at a stand still and what stands still doesn't 'live'. So in a way, perfection is as much a threat to life as imperfection. Aka, back to my all time mantra: it's all about balance.

 

It seems petty to me that a Creator would allow evil to exist simply to cover his own ego. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

So yeah, eventhough RJ mentioned that, I don't agree with it and (where I'm concerned) it's a testimony to his creativity and talent that his work allows this difference of opinion as to the source of his work, the reason behind it and allows the reader to make it 'their own'. Just like a painting from a true master allows the viewer to experience it from their own personal perspective, regardless of what the painter himself intended to communicate.

[Suttree]

It seems petty to me that a Creator would allow evil to exist simply to cover his own ego. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Not sure we can attempt to understand notions of "why" when discussing a being such as the Creator. In addition it is because of that balance that I'm not sure he can do anything(outside of the prison) about that evil existing.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

Also more of RJ's thoughts on humanity being alone...don't believe they shed much light either way.

 

 

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

[Guest PiotrekS]

It seems petty to me that a Creator would allow evil to exist simply to cover his own ego. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Not sure we can attempt to understand notions of "why" when discussing a being such as the Creator. In addition it is because of that balance that I'm not sure he can do anything(outside of the prison) about that evil existing.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

Also more of RJ's thoughts on humanity being alone...don't believe they shed much light either way.

 

 

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Thanks Suttree for these quotes!

 

It would seem they shed some light on the voice from EotW. They also contradict other quotes from RJ, who said once something like: "Who said the Creator never interferes?" They are pretty straightforward in that regard and not typical RJ Aes Sedai vagueness, so either the reporters messed something up, or he let slip more than he should have and the voice was not Creator's.

[gulcher97]

since the wheel of time has had several similarities to the new testament, I thought that maybe since god had to send Jesus to Earth so he could open up a way for us to reach him and him to reach us, then maybe it will be the same way with Rand and the creator.

[gulcher97]

It seems petty to me that a Creator would allow evil to exist simply to cover his own ego. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Not sure we can attempt to understand notions of "why" when discussing a being such as the Creator. In addition it is because of that balance that I'm not sure he can do anything(outside of the prison) about that evil existing.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

Also more of RJ's thoughts on humanity being alone...don't believe they shed much light either way.

 

 

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Thanks Suttree for these quotes!

 

It would seem they shed some light on the voice from EotW. They also contradict other quotes from RJ, who said once something like: "Who said the Creator never interferes?" They are pretty straightforward in that regard and not typical RJ Aes Sedai vagueness, so either the reporters messed something up, or he let slip more than he should have and the voice was not Creator's.

 

 

If the creator hadnt created the dark one then there would be nothing but good, and to truely know something you have to see the opposite of it, or experiance it. Imagine a world with no conflict or compotition, it would be extremally dull and boring and make a horrible book.

[Mystica]

 

Also more of RJ's thoughts on humanity being alone...don't believe they shed much light either way.

 

 

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

 

 

 

This is basically the same as what I said in my original post, though I gave it further reasoning from my own point of view. It seems now, with this quote, I'm not that far off base as originally seemed with the quote about the Creator not wanting to compromise his perfect perception. Thanks Suttree. I generally don't go hunting for these quotes, but I appreciate other people taking the time to do so. :)