common complaints

[Jonn]

Well, I guess I'll just jump in here.

 

Some things I'll say first:

 

Rand was the primary target in the Darkhound attack in Rhuidean. Mat was a secondary target and he was saved by Rand's balefire.

 

Later Lanfear says that it was Rahvin who sent the darkhounds. There's no real reason to doubt her other than the fact that she's Lanfear, a notorious manipulator. Still, the reasoning stands, even though Sammael is the one generally known at this point to use darkhounds. I can't see that it would be too hard though for Rahvin to find some darkhounds to cast the eye towards Illian, because of this reputation.

 

Another note I'll point out is this;

 

Mat found out about Morgase from skirmishing with Andorans in Cairhien, who were camped over the border apparently taking advantage of the Cairhien civil war.

 

It seems rather unlikely that Sammael would have that kind of sway with Andoran troops, and there's nothing to suggest that Lanfear or Graendal would have any influence on that incident. To me it seems like simple dumb luck that Mat ran into that information. I don't think it was a plant.

 

It's waaaay out of the realm of reason to say that Rahvin set himself up so...I'm thinking that this conspiracy to send Rand to Caemlyn is bunk.

 

Lanfear revealing that Rahvin sent the darkhounds was probably a ploy to get Rand to trust her. That's what she's been trying to do the whole time, and this is prior to her finding out about Aviendha, so her M.O. is not likely altered right then.

 

The only conspiracy I can possibly see is that Lanfear wanted Rand to go to Caemlyn all along. I don't see why.

 

The Andoran forces Mat ran into, he met by chance. In fact he didn't even want to get into a skirmish with these troops. The only reason there was a conflict was because the Band of the Rd Hand followed Mat as he was trying to get away from Rand.

 

I don't see how Lanfear set this up. I can't see how Graendal could set this up. Andoran troops are Rahvin's concern. Even if Graendal, by some outside chance, could have set up the information reaching Rand, we are never lead to believe this by anything in the books. We see Graendal very little besides when she's meeting with the others.

 

Also, if you think about it...it's kind of a bonehead play to get Rand to attack Andor, and then sit around waiting for the man to come at Andor with Light knows what kind of force, and set yourself up to possibly get caught up in a battle.

 

Note in Lord of Chaos, Demandred explains to the Dark One that Graendal told him that Moghedien missed an appointment to meet, the very day that Asmodean was killed.

 

“Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday.†There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. “Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence.â€

 

This tells us two things right away. First is that Graendal had made an appointment sometime that day to meet with Moghedien. Where and when exactly, we don't actually know. the second thing that is apparent is that Demandred and Graendal also met either the day of Asmodean's death, or earlier in the day that Demandred communed in Shayol Ghul.

 

So what this gives us is an outline for Graendal's alibi.

 

She was supposedly supposed to be waiting for the signal like everyone else, to go to Illian and to defeat Rand.

 

She also had set up to meet Moghedien that day. ALSO she had met with Demandred sometime in that 24 hour or so period before Demandred went to Shayol Ghul.

 

So with virtually no expositional time, no POV or narrative, we, the readers are to assume that she set up Rahvin by controlling his troops to run into Mat by chance.

She managed to go to Caemlyn to sell her intention to go through with the plan. She also found time to schedule a meet with Moghedien AND Demandred. Oh, and she went about stalking Asmodean and killed him.

 

OK, that's a little too busy for her characterization early into her introduction. That's too much to come up with prior and even after the event of Asmodean's death.

 

This is basically coming down to Graendal killing both Rahvin and Asmodean, in different ways.

 

To top it off, we have her Compulsing Asmodean so that he is able to think quite freely except that he's walking into an ambush. He's thinking about being killed right up until he actually is killed!

 

It goes right back down to M.O. though. If you can compel him using the power that subtly, why kill him so abruptly? He would have tons of information that could help your cause, if you were able to capture him. he could be used as leverage against Lanfear because that early on, no one knew that she was dead yet. That's quite useful. If you can take the time to use such a subtle form of Compulsion, you could easily shield him, capture him, interrogate him and then serve him up on a platter to the Great Lord himself.

 

The person who killed him wanted him dead to serve a purpose. In Graendal's case, he's actually more valuable to her, alive.

 

So in the end, I think the plan remained the same, that Mat was supposed to lead Rand to Illian. Rahvin did his part by sending Darkhounds (Sammael's trademark) to try to kill Rand and Mat. Where else would a Golden Bees dagger come from but Illian? Sammael agreed to the plan so he was commited to waiting for Rand to attack him. There's no reason for him not to plant that dagger and he is the best candidate to provide such a prop. He was the one who sent lighting during the seige of Cairhien. So you have both Rahvin and Sammael pointing Rand towards Illian. Lanfear mentions Rahvin in the hopes of either steering Rand towards Caemlyn or in order to gain his trust. Or, it could all be a lie and Sammael actually did send the hounds. Now, notice in all of this not a word is mentioned about Graendal. It's not a crafty ommission either. She simply isn't involved in any of these manuevers. She had simply agreed to go along with the plan. She was busy at the time as well. She was consolidating her hold in the west. She was meeting with Moghedien and Demandred on the side. Just because she is off screen doesn't mean she isn't doing anything. Then again, just beacuse she is off screen doesn't mean she's doing EVERYTHING we cannot see either. That's a flaw in the logic here. She's busy enough as it is. She doesn't have the time to be jumping all over the map in the way Graendal theorists describe her to be doing.

[Luckers]

She also found time to schedule a meet with Moghedien AND Demandred. Oh, and she went about stalking Asmodean and killed him.

 

That makes sense, given if she planned it that she'd want to establish her alibi. Oh wait, of course meeting with Moghedian and Demandred took the whole day... i forgot how your mind works for a second. And i dont think she stalked Asmodean, as we keep telling you, but encountered him on chance.

 

But dont let that stand in the way of the fanciful constructions you concider to be our arguments.

 

OK, that's a little too busy for her characterization early into her introduction. That's too much to come up with prior and even after the event of Asmodean's death.

 

For your mind. Mine deals with it quite ok.

 

To top it off, we have her Compulsing Asmodean so that he is able to think quite freely except that he's walking into an ambush. He's thinking about being killed right up until he actually is killed!

 

Ummm what?

 

It goes right back down to M.O. though. If you can compel him using the power that subtly, why kill him so abruptly? He would have tons of information that could help your cause, if you were able to capture him. he could be used as leverage against Lanfear because that early on, no one knew that she was dead yet. That's quite useful. If you can take the time to use such a subtle form of Compulsion, you could easily shield him, capture him, interrogate him and then serve him up on a platter to the Great Lord himself.

 

Again, sorry... what? He walked in on her, and she killed him. Where's compulsion coming from?

 

The person who killed him wanted him dead to serve a purpose. In Graendal's case, he's actually more valuable to her, alive.

 

Actually the person who killed him, whoever it was, was walked in on. Asmodean caused the meeting not the killer. Whoever killed him did so to A) cover up their pressense, and B) out of convenience.

 

 

 

What the hell am i doing? I decided not to talk to you about this, and you were right in pointing to the fact that i still manage to. Ignore this post.

[Jonn]

She also found time to schedule a meet with Moghedien AND Demandred. Oh, and she went about stalking Asmodean and killed him.

 

That makes sense, given if she planned it that she'd want to establish her alibi. Oh wait, of course meeting with Moghedian and Demandred took the whole day... i forgot how your mind works for a second. And i dont think she stalked Asmodean, as we keep telling you, but encountered him on chance.

 

But dont let that stand in the way of the fanciful constructions you concider to be our arguments.

 

Quite the bitter one, you sound like. Fanciful arguments? We'll I look at things like the text and timelines to construct my 'fanciful...arguments' as you put it. You barely even look at the thread you're posting in apparently.

 

A chance encounter scenario is ludicrous. If you were paying attention in the Asmodean thread, you would have seen we went over that possibility and mostly abandoned it.

 

the fact that you have Graendal hiding in a pantry, looking for...well, nothing. that's absurd enough. Now she killed him on accident? That's beyond silly.

 

RJ makes it a point to say that you should be able to figure it out. How are we supposed to come to the conclusion you present here. That she was hiding in a cellar when Asmodean accidentally happened upon her... So what is it then? She's a sly and very active manipulator (contrary to evidence up until the killing), or she's a bumbling moron who kills Asmodean in a slapstick spit-take pratfall manner?

 

Either way, it is a stretch.

 

OK, that's a little too busy for her characterization early into her introduction. That's too much to come up with prior and even after the event of Asmodean's death.

 

For your mind. Mine deals with it quite ok.

 

That's because you're thinking backwards. You're a revisionist. We have no insight into how Graendal operates until after the killing of Asmodean.

 

This is in direct contrast to RJ's statement that it should be apparent who the killer is from evidence prior to the murder.

 

It works well in your mind because you want it to. Fact is, there isn't enough in the actual tect to come to a conclusion about any of Graendal's activities and it's even iffy after we get to know her better in the following books.

 

To top it off, we have her Compulsing Asmodean so that he is able to think quite freely except that he's walking into an ambush. He's thinking about being killed right up until he actually is killed!

 

 

 

It goes right back down to M.O. though. If you can compel him using the power that subtly, why kill him so abruptly? He would have tons of information that could help your cause, if you were able to capture him. he could be used as leverage against Lanfear because that early on, no one knew that she was dead yet. That's quite useful. If you can take the time to use such a subtle form of Compulsion, you could easily shield him, capture him, interrogate him and then serve him up on a platter to the Great Lord himself.

 

Again, sorry... what? He walked in on her, and she killed him. Where's compulsion coming from?

 

I was referring to Graendal's Favorite's theory.

 

Since you like to use the term "we" when it comes to those who think Graendal did it, note how varied your theories actually are.

 

Try reading the a bit more of the thread before you jump off like this. It's even more tiresome because of the fact that I'm referring to the post that was just before mine. Quite logical really.

 

Then again, judging by the way your mind works, can't say that I'm surprised.

 

 

The person who killed him wanted him dead to serve a purpose. In Graendal's case, he's actually more valuable to her, alive.

 

Actually the person who killed him, whoever it was, was walked in on. Asmodean caused the meeting not the killer. Whoever killed him did so to A) cover up their pressense, and B) out of convenience.

 

Walked in on? So you're one of these accidental killing theorists. That's even more absurd.

 

 

What the hell am i doing? I decided not to talk to you about this, and you were right in pointing to the fact that i still manage to. Ignore this post.

 

I really don't know what you are doing because you make less and less sense every time.

[Guest Majsju]

It goes right back down to M.O. though. If you can compel him using the power that subtly, why kill him so abruptly? He would have tons of information that could help your cause, if you were able to capture him. he could be used as leverage against Lanfear because that early on, no one knew that she was dead yet. That's quite useful. If you can take the time to use such a subtle form of Compulsion, you could easily shield him, capture him, interrogate him and then serve him up on a platter to the Great Lord himself.

 

Except that tiny little detail that it's basically impossible for a woman to compel a man if he is holding the power. And as far as we know, there is no way for women to detect if a man is holding Saidin, only if he is actively channeling.

[Luckers]

Well there is, as of KoD. But Graendal would not know that.

[Guest Majsju]

Right, forgot about that, or rather, ignored it, since unlike men who simply feels when a woman is holding Saidar, what we saw in KOD required an active weave.

 

So, for Graendal to try compulsion instead of a directly killing weave it would take first seeing him, then channeling the weave to detect whether or not he is holding Saidin, and then weave compulsion. During that time Asmo should have been able to kill her three or four times already, so I think it's quite safe to assume that the first strike would be a killing weave, not compulsion.

[Graendals favourite]

Agree with that. When following him or when Asmo walks in, there would be no time to reverse a weave and all that stuff.

 

At the garden I was thinking of a small nudge, something to get him moving, but small enough that he should not notice. An inducement of unease, boredom, the like, something she doesn't need to alter after she's prepared the weave and reversed it. Until the kill and her departure, she would probably not to anything that is not reversed. Like against Verin at the Cleansing she had her weaves readied.

[Graendals favourite]

Oh, Jonn, you wrote a long post. Long enough, that I can't fully answer now. However, I consider myself free to speculate what it was Graendal did before the murder, that is with less need for proof or evidence. Of course what she did does have to have support from the books, but only enough to make a likely guess. As far as I'm concerned, none of that stuff makes anyone a killer; without knowing who the killer was, the Forsaken's plans, even if they were written out on a list, would not dictate what happened that day in Caemlyn. Since I don't use any of that stuff in establishing the killer to be Mesaana, Semirhage or Graendal, I have that freedom to speculate. The proof of who did it lies solely on the murder scene, and on the impossibility of Asmodean to have walked in on the killer by accident.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, why is it impossible for Asmodean to have walked in on the killer by mistake?

 

Right, forgot about that, or rather, ignored it, since unlike men who simply feels when a woman is holding Saidar, what we saw in KOD required an active weave.

 

So, for Graendal to try compulsion instead of a directly killing weave it would take first seeing him, then channeling the weave to detect whether or not he is holding Saidin, and then weave compulsion. During that time Asmo should have been able to kill her three or four times already, so I think it's quite safe to assume that the first strike would be a killing weave, not compulsion.

 

No, i know. As i said, Graendal wouldn't have known that weave anyway.

[Graendals favourite]

I addressed that in the DO and transmigration thread, so I'll quote that since I thought it was decently put. Now, this is a question that is much easier for me to think through than put in words, so I hope it's concidered accordingly.

 

We have the murder scene:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. “You? No!†The word still hung in the air when death took him.

It is difficult to explain why that was impossible if the murderer did not know Asmo was coming before he opened the door, and that he was alone. It is akin to explaining how one can walk: I can say one shifts his weight forward while moving a foot at the same time, but explaining it further is harder.

 

Here the issue is more complicated, the question is what does it take to instantly kill someone who suddenly opens a door on you. Unless the murderer knew beforehand that Asmo was coming, he would not have known it was Asmo before Asmo knew there was the murderer: You can try it, pull open a small door and take one step. Then there is recognition, but the sword should already be swinging, it does not take long to utter "You?" Mind, all of this is happening at the same time, taking the paragraph into parts does not work: Asmo has fully recognised the person behind the door during that step, thus the blood drawing from his face and him stopping. The "No!" is uttered as a reaction to his unstoppable dying, he has realised he will die. It is cut short, even; the words hung in the air, so quick was the blow. And here then the murderer should have had somewhere time to be surprised by Asmo himself?

 

For a person who would not have known of Asmo coming, even worse is that he would have no idea who is with Asmodean. Who would immediately kill Asmodean if Rand is right behind him? The thought of killing Asmodean should not enter his mind, but rather the thought of fleeing. There is no time to consider whether he wants to kill Asmodean; the murderer started moving as soon as Asmodean was fully in view. But this is difficult to explain: It is just physically-mentally-logically impossible that the murderer didn't know Asmo was coming, and coming alone, before he opened the door.

 

On the other hand, such a position is a perfect place for an ambush, when you know who's coming. You get warning from the door opening, the person coming is preoccupied with the door while you first glimpse him, and you have him right in front of you where you can unleash whatever you've prepared.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, i disagree. The killer had no way of knowing Asmodean would even be present in the attack on Caemlyn, muchless that he would wander off to some obscure pantry, and i see nothing in the progression of events that suggest especial planning.

 

Play it like your Graendal, observing or hiding from whats going on. Suddenly the door to you hiding place--an obscure pantry where no one would go in a battle--is opened. You find yourself face to face with Asmodean who is as shocked to find you there as you are to see him. He gasps 'You! No!' and the words free you from your startlement at being walked in on by the only man in Caemlyn who could recognize tou. You react, channeling flows of fire so powerful they wipe him out of exitence.

 

As for you comment about who would attack without knowing Asmodean was alone... everything about the attack rings of the killer being startled. If it was a hit, then maybe that argument would be valid, but given that Asmodean walked himself to an obscure hideaway place in an attack no one could predict--either that it would happen, or that he would be a part of it.

 

Besides, if it was a hit, then where is the sense in letting your victim see you? Especially not when your victim can channel, and you do not know of the shield on him?

[Graendals favourite]

I'm sorry, i disagree. The killer had no way of knowing Asmodean would even be present in the attack on Caemlyn, muchless that he would wander off to some obscure pantry, and i see nothing in the progression of events that suggest especial planning.

I agree on the first part, on the second no. Most definitely no. It is a false conclusion. The murderer was fully able to know Asmodean was going to go through that door if she saw him approach it. The main thing was, that Asmodean was walking away from other people.

Play it like your Graendal, observing or hiding from whats going on. Suddenly the door to you hiding place--an obscure pantry where no one would go in a battle--is opened. You find yourself face to face with Asmodean who is as shocked to find you there as you are to see him. He gasps 'You! No!' and the words free you from your startlement at being walked in on by the only man in Caemlyn who could recognize tou. You react, channeling flows of fire so powerful they wipe him out of exitence.

That is not what happened. It was quicker than that. Even there, you allow the murderer more time than the murder scene paragraph grants. Unless the murderer knew Asmo was coming, she was surprised by his coming. There is no time there to consider, no time to hesitate, let alone be unprepared to act.

As for you comment about who would attack without knowing Asmodean was alone... everything about the attack rings of the killer being startled. If it was a hit, then maybe that argument would be valid, but given that Asmodean walked himself to an obscure hideaway place in an attack no one could predict--either that it would happen, or that he would be a part of it.

On the contrary, everything rings that the murderer expected Asmo. In an ambush such a kill can happen, not on a chance encounter of two uninformed parties.

Besides, if it was a hit, then where is the sense in letting your victim see you? Especially not when your victim can channel, and you do not know of the shield on him?

A lengthy quote to finnish here, from the same source as the previous:

It's fiction, Jordan has written stuff that doesn't make sense, so it's possible. I think that no one knew about the shield on Asmo except him, Rand and Lanfear (later Moridin if he got it out of Cyndane). If you have what you think is a dangerous channeler (he still fought tSR Rand to a draw) in your sights, why would you reveal yourself to him instead of nuking him before he sees you?

 

Foreword:

I think it does make sense. True, should it not make sense, so that someone could reach that decision, it would not really be possible. Specific question, and the answer grows long immediately. I try to make the structure clear. Here a concrete answer, though one must remember we don't know what the surroundings look like, what the exact circumstances were. Here I must make assumptions on the circumstances in order to speak about them, while staying on as general a level as I can. I hope people refer to the main argument here, since it is the essential argument while the discussion on different factors only motivate it.

 

 

The main argument:

The simple answer to the question is, nuking him from afar holds dangers, while when revealing herself to Asmo it is already too late for him because she's ready for whatever weave she uses and he is only surprised to see not only anyone, but her.

 

 

Discussion on relevant factors:

There's many separate factors to consider here. One is that Graendal would be following Asmodean from a little way of, she would not want to allow him to notice her presence. This makes taking a shot at him at any given moment more difficult. Also, she does not know what he is exactly about. To her, on the other hand, the price of failure in that first blow is Asmodean starting to fight back. Asmodean might stop, he might turn, all sorts of unforeseeable possibilities. I am reminded of Moghedien balefiring at Nynaeve from that rooftop, when the pigeons saved Nynaeve. Such a blast would also carry its own risk of things not staying quiet.

 

Another is that Asmodean taking that small door would make her following him more difficult. She was at risk of losing him. Deeming the doorway to be a safe place to kill him, in order to get it over with, it would not have been beneficient to wait longer. I guess I here also need to point out the palace was empty, as would have been known also to Graendal, having spent any time there.

 

A factor is the element of surprise, where one party is surprised and the other prepared. Facing Asmodean in the doorway Graendal will be able to get one clean shot at him, while he is in surprise. I am reminded of Rand and Semirhage, Semirhage and Rand were both surprised, Rand that it was her, she that her cover was blown. Rand lost that because of his struggle with Lews Therin, yet had Semirhage been prepared to kill him immediately, she would not have needed to allow him a chance to save himself by giving up his arm.

 

The longer shot also carries a risk of reactive action, of Asmodean sensing something and ducking, moving slightly so he doesn't die and can fight. This is much less so in the doorway, since Graendal can have started whatever it is she wanted to do, at close range, before Asmodean knew she was there. Perhaps something similar to Temaile's method of killing the Aes Sedai in KoD.

 

 

The main argument continued:

So the ambush follows the theme of not reacting to your opponent, but getting him come to you, in this instance to open a door between you. This goes to show there are many factors to consider in deciding what is the best practical way of killing Asmodean. The intuitive immediate strike is not necessarily the best approach, and an experienced user of the One Power such as Graendal doesn't need to fall for that. She may consider she is able to Travel in order to get herself in a better position to deliver the blow. She is even able to take into account the surprise factor, having the best knowledge of the human mind in the world. Someone might choose the distant strike, someone the ambush; the thing is, either has its plusses and minuses, either has its own rational.

[Cybertrolloc]

Lanfear telling Rand that the Dark Hounds came from Rahvin--don't forget Taveraness here too. Though sending DH to Rhuidean (or just generally tailing Rand and/or Mat)...they probably had to be sent out before the FoH prologue Forsaken meeting in Caemlyn.

 

That is not what happened. It was quicker than that. Even there' date=' you allow the murderer more time than the murder scene paragraph grants. Unless the murderer knew Asmo was coming, she was surprised by his coming. There is no time there to consider, no time to hesitate, let alone be unprepared to act.[/quote']

So the series ended in LoC when Bashere's thrown dagger hit Rand in the vitals? You didn't answer my questions posed in the other thread either ;)

 

A chance encounter scenario is ludicrous. If you were paying attention in the Asmodean thread' date=' you would have seen we went over that possibility and mostly abandoned it.[/quote']

Yet another good reason for staying out of the Asmodean thread.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is not what happened. It was quicker than that. Even there, you allow the murderer more time than the murder scene paragraph grants. Unless the murderer knew Asmo was coming, she was surprised by his coming. There is no time there to consider, no time to hesitate, let alone be unprepared to act.

 

Seriously, channeling is as quick as thought. The time taken up by saying, "You? No!" is enough to create balefire, or any of a half dozen other killing weaves we've seen, and probably dozens we haven't.

 

The speed of channeling is a strong argument against any non-channeler being able to have killed Asmodean.

 

If you were paying attention in the Asmodean thread, you would have seen we went over that possibility and mostly abandoned it.

 

Actually, you should replace the "we" in that sentence with "I". Don't pretend your opinions are universally accepted, Jonn.

[mightisright]

Hmmmm... I'd say thing I find most annoying are posters that lack diplomatic posting skills. These boards are very well mannered for the most part but some posters are very condescending. I find it satisfying when people make the concession in their post - that their theory/reply is their opinion, even if it is somewhat redundant, because it reiterates that they understand they didn't write the series and they aren't infallible. Its great that there are strong opinions out there. If you took the time to post about something I understand it must be a fairly strong opinion. Toning down the rhetoric and finding common ground amid disagreements is even more satisfying. After all, anyone that comes here regularly is ultimately here to celebrate the series, author and fellow fans.

[Jonn]

It goes right back down to M.O. though. If you can compel him using the power that subtly, why kill him so abruptly? He would have tons of information that could help your cause, if you were able to capture him. he could be used as leverage against Lanfear because that early on, no one knew that she was dead yet. That's quite useful. If you can take the time to use such a subtle form of Compulsion, you could easily shield him, capture him, interrogate him and then serve him up on a platter to the Great Lord himself.

 

Except that tiny little detail that it's basically impossible for a woman to compel a man if he is holding the power. And as far as we know, there is no way for women to detect if a man is holding Saidin, only if he is actively channeling.

 

Yeah, I was actually pointing out how unlikely it was that Graendal could have compelled Asmodean to do anything, but your explanation actually works better.

 

Then again, we as an audience didn't know much about women Compulsing men at that point either, so it's actually a decent thought, though fundamentally misguided as far as Graendal's motivation goes.

[icspots]

Except that tiny little detail that it's basically impossible for a woman to compel a man if he is holding the power. And as far as we know, there is no way for women to detect if a man is holding Saidin, only if he is actively channeling.

 

I don't think we have any examples of female channelers using compulsion on male channelers, or if holding Saidin has any effect on it. We do have examples of using the warder bond to compell an Asha'man/Warder being completely ineffective. They have similar results, however we have no evidence to suggest that actual compulsion would be as limited as that in the Warder bond.

[Jonn]

If you were paying attention in the Asmodean thread, you would have seen we went over that possibility and mostly abandoned it.

 

Actually, you should replace the "we" in that sentence with "I". Don't pretend your opinions are universally accepted, Jonn.

 

Actually "we" refers to those of us who participated in the original Asmodean thread, and yes, we as a larger portion of the posters in that thread, mostly veered away from that accidental/surprise killing scenario. I do acknowledge that there are still some holdouts for this theory, hence my use of the word "mostly". Mostly, people had their serious doubts about the coincidental meeting scenario.

Graendal's Favorite explains the rationale rather eloquently, even though I do disagree with the stalking scenario as well.

[Graendals favourite]

Cybertrolloc and RAW, you hit the nail as it is, but it goes the other way.

 

Cybertrolloc, perhaps that is so about the Darkhounds, though could be otherways too, not certain.

 

That is not what happened. It was quicker than that. Even there, you allow the murderer more time than the murder scene paragraph grants. Unless the murderer knew Asmo was coming, she was surprised by his coming. There is no time there to consider, no time to hesitate, let alone be unprepared to act.

So the series ended in LoC when Bashere's thrown dagger hit Rand in the vitals?

That's exactly it, Rand didn't die.

Seriously, channeling is as quick as thought. The time taken up by saying, "You? No!" is enough to create balefire, or any of a half dozen other killing weaves we've seen, and probably dozens we haven't.

Yes, it is time enough, and the murderer had to have to time to do it.

 

You see, being surprised the killer would have no more time than Asmo! Or near enough, makes no difference. And the murder scene is:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. “You? No!†The word still hung in the air when death took him.

It does not say there that Asmo opened a door and was killed, but it says more. Whatever unleashing there was, had to have happened when Asmo said "You?," and even his reaction "No!" was cut short. It would be different if it said:

"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You?" Frantically reaching for the little saidin that was available to him, he set to duck out, but saw death coming. "No!" He was dead even as he fell on the floor behind."

 

See? There's none of that, no time to be surprised. No time for what happened with Semirhage and Rand, Rand uttering "Semirhage," Semirhage's mouth tightening in anger, and only then Semirhage raising her hand and channelling, and then Rand realising she might actually attack him.

 

 

Cybertrolloc, which questions did I not answer? I thought I did, but perhaps I forgot or didn't see what you were aiming at.

[Graendals favourite]

Mightisright, I agree with your sentiment. I might be seen as using strong rhetoric myself, but not without reason. Earlier on, I included I thinks and such in who killed Asmodean, but as I grew more certain, I stopped that. And right that is, were I to say I think Graendal killed Asmo, I'd be lying by implication. Also, there's speculative parts for which I prefer to leave the 'I thinks.' Makes things clearer, when I speak definitely I'm speaking about the solution, when I think I'm speaking about what the solution and other related things imply. Who killed Asmo has a solution, so someone is right, I'm convinced it's me, and as I've grown to trust my own deductions, I do not give in to find the common ground. Another question is that I cannot claim to have thought of everything, which would be ridiculous to say the least, only I'm certain about the core issue.

[Jonn]

Oh, Jonn, you wrote a long post. Long enough, that I can't fully answer now. However, I consider myself free to speculate what it was Graendal did before the murder, that is with less need for proof or evidence. Of course what she did does have to have support from the books, but only enough to make a likely guess. As far as I'm concerned, none of that stuff makes anyone a killer; without knowing who the killer was, the Forsaken's plans, even if they were written out on a list, would not dictate what happened that day in Caemlyn. Since I don't use any of that stuff in establishing the killer to be Mesaana, Semirhage or Graendal, I have that freedom to speculate. The proof of who did it lies solely on the murder scene, and on the impossibility of Asmodean to have walked in on the killer by accident.

 

While you are free to speculate, you have to agree that that is all it is really. It's a scenario constructed to back up your guess. It doesn't require much evidence and that is why it's vulnerable and can be freely seen as unreliable.

 

If we go to the issue about what is known to us by the time of Asmodean's death, not much is known about Graendal at all given the text. My argument is that this speculation comes as rather labored and tainted by the passage of time and hindsight hypotheses.

 

If we try to go back to what we were supposed to know prior to the murder, it's increasingly hard to possibly see these speculative scenarios involving Graendal because we simply don't know much about her at the time. We aren't meant to know much about her. What hurts her is that we find out so much about her in the following books. Much is revealed about her MO and her personality and capabilities, yet the details of what she was doing that would lead her to the end of the smoking gun are curiously absent.

 

You are free to speculate, but it's not as strong in proving your case as you might want it to be.

 

I'll concede that this is largely why Moiraine theorists stay away from specualting about her captivity in the Finniverse.

 

We do hold that there is enough prior to her captivity and towards the actual murder sequence to strongly put forth our suspicions.

 

Still that fact that there is a guaranteed reveal ahead of us gives us hope that an answer will be forthcoming on our end. I'm not sure how fluidly a Graendal reveal would play out, or even if it should. It would be rather besides the point if that's the case and ultimately...not worth mentioning, so far as the narrative goes. It basically plays out as a distraction.

[Graendals favourite]

Yes and no, I agree the speculation is speculation. A rational try at explaining matters, what were the events that led to Graendal killing Asmo. After reaching the Semirhage-Mesaana-Graendal stage in the deductions, a glimpse at the background reveals Graendal as the killer. So it is interesting to find out why it was that Graendal ended up stalking up and ambushing Asmo. While ultimate why's are as impossible as the question "Why do I exist?", surely all the left-over info can be used to build a reasonable explanation to events.

 

But this is the catch, the explanation is not necessary to the question, which is "Who killed Asmodean?". The questions "What led to Asmodean dying that way?" and "What were the circumstances of his death?" are interesting, and if an answer is found, they may even inspire theories about other things. They have, in my case, at least the one about Graendal and Mat, and also my Graendal and Taim theory. Those theories would also have to obey the latter two questions. Also, the explanation I guess is what we as readers want to know, not just a blunt "Graendal," but some story behind it. Well, the story has never been promised, RJ has promised us the name. However, as with everything in the books, there are clues to what happened here and there, so putting these things together with what we know, we may construct the full story, which RJ has as usual hidden. No one knows everything, Rand least of all.

 

The solution is so compact, that's why it requires little evidence. Essentially three steps, each of them vital, one of which is difficult to explain, and then at least two explanations clearing up negative evidence, that is Graendal could end up in Caemlyn and behind that door. Certainly it is difficult to explain... And I can't agree with anyone else's theories, because my first vital step contradicts all of them.

 

I concur that Graendal killing Asmodean is more of a curiosity in aMoL. I'm not sure it needs to be there at all, but then it's plain enough anyway, best to keep the mystery as tight as possible. There is some chance that the Mat-Graendal or Taim-Graendal theories would have a narrative significance in aMoL if proven true, both of which are tied to Asmodean also, so perhaps it wouldn't be completely irrelevant. But a good puzzle is always worth it, there aren't too many of them around anywhere.

 

So, I can't agree with what you say, though I find I concur on surprisingly many things there. *shakes his head*

[Luckers]

It does not say there that Asmo opened a door and was killed, but it says more. Whatever unleashing there was, had to have happened when Asmo said "You?," and even his reaction "No!" was cut short. It would be different if it said:

"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You?" Frantically reaching for the little saidin that was available to him, he set to duck out, but saw death coming. "No!" He was dead even as he fell on the floor behind."

 

Except we know Asmodean has bad reflexes, and we know that whoever was in that pantry was in danger simply being in Randland. The hesitation came not from being walked in on, but from recognising the person that had walked in on her. She was startled that it was Asmodean, and the held her for an instant. Asmodean was equally startled to find Graendal, but whilst Graendal was in an enemy territory, Asmodean thought the battle was over and had gone looking for a nice drop of wine.

 

I don't think we have any examples of female channelers using compulsion on male channelers, or if holding Saidin has any effect on it. We do have examples of using the warder bond to compell an Asha'man/Warder being completely ineffective. They have similar results, however we have no evidence to suggest that actual compulsion would be as limited as that in the Warder bond.

 

In LoC Sammael states that being wrapped in saidin makes you immune to compulsion.

[Graendals favourite]

It does not say there that Asmo opened a door and was killed, but it says more. Whatever unleashing there was, had to have happened when Asmo said "You?," and even his reaction "No!" was cut short. It would be different if it said:

"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You?" Frantically reaching for the little saidin that was available to him, he set to duck out, but saw death coming. "No!" He was dead even as he fell on the floor behind."

Except we know Asmodean has bad reflexes, and we know that whoever was in that pantry was in danger simply being in Randland. The hesitation came not from being walked in on, but from recognising the person that had walked in on her. She was startled that it was Asmodean, and the held her for an instant. Asmodean was equally startled to find Graendal, but whilst Graendal was in an enemy territory, Asmodean thought the battle was over and had gone looking for a nice drop of wine.

 

That still does not do it. I don't know where comes the assumption about reflexes being slow or being in danger anyway, but it still doesn't do. No time. Humans are not machines. Even if whoever would've been inside saw Asmo the instant his head came in clear view, it still doesn't do. The clock starts ticking, and when the You? is done, it is way too late. It was one step. Asmo wasn't visible but for the latter part of it, as in any doorway where you pull open a door. No, no time to be surprised at all.

 

I won't even go into coincidences, because that is enough.

[Luckers]

So what you are arguing is that someone planned on killing Asmodean, waited for him to enter the room, paused giving him time to channel, then killed him, all intentionally?

 

The time frame is fine. She goes to kill him. She recognizes him and is startled. She hesitates. she kills him.

 

I'm sorry, but the question of time if she planned to kill him is even more incongruent. Channeling is near to instantaneous, its peoples thought processes that have to catch up. If she was prepared he should have been dead before he saw her.