one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Graendals favourite]

Surely the other forsaken are greater threats to him. Thinking of Mesaana and Elaida. And Dashiva' date=' later. There are always rumours about any number of attrocities performed by Rand.[/quote']

 

Who says the Finn's see it that way. The greatest threat can be seen as the one that is physically closest. And damage control for something like harbouring a Foresaken would be near impossible.

 

I disagree. If the Finns were to discover what the greates threat was, surely they would have to use their reading of the pattern ability, if the foxes have that. That should give the greatest actual threat.

 

Who would believe the Dragon was a Darkfriend, if it came to rumours? At least any more than he killed Morgase and Elayne. The important folks would realise, say if Cadsuane found out, that he was doing exactly what he was doing. Asmo would still have been a prisoner.

[Graendals favourite]

true, havoc110. Graendal is now so strong and specific, that those thinking Lanfear or Moiraine have to dig deep. There are no more logical flaws with Graendal, so they cannot have, either.

[Guest cwestervelt]

 

You have a talent for over-simplifying things in such a way that it's mildly annoying.

 

I love a good back-handed compliment. (no sarcasm' date=' honest) Hopefully nothing I say will be taken personally. I want to be serious but not overly serious, to keep it fun, as it were.

 

I found it funny/strange/compelling that both you and CW have the same point (at almost the same time) about the public relations mess that Asmo presents. I started thinking about "White Tower Press Secretaries" and the like.

 

Clearly, I am not going to convince either of you that Moiraine is not the killer. I myself, am only reasonably sure that it is not Moiraine, for reasons I have stated.

 

I think progress is being made, however. For our part, we are taking a closer look at the actual evidence. Moiraine's letters, POV's of people who have been to Finnland before, etc.[/quote']

 

If you want to know just how close in time both John and I made our "PR" comments, John's wasn't there when I started typing mine but his was there before I finished.

[Mugah]

Asmo wasn't even the greatest threat to the wine pantry at the time...

I like this comment.

 

To the threorys on the possibility of moirane's with being misunderstood or misderected. Moirane is amaising. All as have spent decades peing precise with the way they word the things they say and she would have been on gaurd when talking to a gienie. Mat got exactly what he asked for and he was being emotional. He got screwed over on the price because he said nothing about what he would offer. They even pointed this out to him. They seem fairly benevolent. They charged him his life but in a way that he could be saved. They even gave him a bonus of the power wrought glaive. I think this is funny as it makes him stand out in a battle and draws more danger but that is beside the point.

 

Back to Moirane, she would get exactly what she asked for and is cunning enough to ask for what she really wants. I think it is likely that she didnt even ask for anything, made no deal. They disaproved and imprisoned her. I am sorry if i am wrong because i havent read all the way and havent seen her get out. I have seen mention of her pov but am unclear as to is she was still there or if she was out. Another thin about Moirane is she anounced to the group in tdr that Sam rules over Illian. Where did that come from? There is almost no was that any eyes and ears knew that so how did she? It is amaising whatever it is.

[havoc110]

I think that this "go through the twisted red doorway and get 3 wishes" concept is the second most misunderstood concept in this mystery. (Behind the aforementioned Asmo opening the wine closet door and his killer waiting in said closet). It just doesn't seem to be all that simple, and of course Mat botched his way through it, so we don't get much understanding of if through him, except that the cost seemed to involve some liberal stretching of his neck. This is no genie in a bottle, folks.

 

It seems clear that Lanfear didn't get any wishes, unless of course she wished herself dead. She also has not seemed to have gotten her heart's desire, which we can assume would be LTT/Rand. Perhaps the cost is always your life, similar to Mat's and Lanfear's experiences. So I would agree with the concept that Moiraine has made no deal, agreed to pay no price, so that her rescue, which she has kinda-sorta foreseen, can take place.

[Jonn_2]

Nice try. I don't think it's quite so safe to make the assumption that Moiraine didn't make a bargain of a sort. It's pretty clear now that she is alive. If the letter to Thom wasn't the sealing of that fact, Min's supposed wrong viewing is.

 

Whatever the details may be, all of the theories we have concerning Moiraine hinge on her rescue, so until then we can only wait. The positive here is that we know we are going to get some answers from this encounter. It has always been part of Moiraine's character to share some new detail or to reveal a mystery. I don't think there will be any disappointment when she makes her dramatic return.

 

To the contrary of what Graendal's fave would like us to think, I think Moiraine is actually looking as strong a candidate as I've ever seen her be in arguing the case over the last couple of years (or however long I've been in the argument. It seems like a long time.) Graendal on the other hand, seems to grow staler by the second and with each turned page without a true answer. Book after book passes by and less and less ground is gained. Moiraine is in her ascendency again since the letter in Knife of Dreams. Despite being only a middling in strength and an absence of 5 or so books, she has proven to be the most deadly foe the Shadow has faced next to Rand himself. Graendal, by contrast, has been content to fade into the background and to "pretend" to lick the hands of most of the other Chosen. Not exactly speaking very well for someone who is useful enough to brazenly go here and there dispatching traitors and playing everyone for fools. Graendal has had all of this time to hit a home run, as we yanks like to say, and finally cash in on being a bada$$ who managed to execute Asmodean. Still we are left begging the question, no more closer to crowning her the killer than we were several books ago.

As it stands now, we have to make no more up about how Graendal commited the murder than we would have to make up for Moiraine to be the killer. I mean really? Cwest and I are stretching? What about all of this malarkey and speculation as to why Graendal is hiding in a cellar? She was there on accident, she had a momentary opportunity...it was all chance, it was planned. She saw Asmodean beforehand and stalked him and then reverse-wove a gateway to appear on the other side of a doorway. (Um...if you can reverse-weave a gateway to appear on the other side of a doorway...why don't you just reverse-weave a spike of air and kill him on the spot without all of the jumping about?) We have people making up whole scenarios as to what would motivate Graendal to risk her neck to take out Asmodean. Why do we have to make it up? Because ther eis no motivation besides what would motivate any of the Chosen who were given an order to kill Asmodean, only...it's unclear that there was an order given by the Dark One to specifically take him out. All of this, we have to make up or have conjecture to make the pieces fit.

Graendal, at this point, is no stronger than Moiraine as a candidate.

[Graendals favourite]

However, it is clear both Lanfear and Moiraine had far greater priorities than Asmodean. It is not even clear Moiraine would have wished Asmo's death. Also, as always, our current understanding is, as RJ has stated, is that the Finns cannot affect the world outside their realm at all. Whatever magical powers they'd have to put either outside, they would not have the powers to yank someone back in from outside. There are so great obstacles in the way that I'm ready to simply state both were unavailable to be anywhere in Randland at the time of murder.

 

Isn't Moiraine rather a character of mysteries? The Cairhienin Aes Sedai? I fear she might not enlighten people much on her stay in Finnland.

 

Graendal is far greater a candidate, since all others have been removed. There can be no doubt she did it. And I have not been looking at further books, I have been looking at Glowing Embers, which the proponents of other candidates conveniently ignore.

 

Graendal hasn't cashed in because she is still in the game without major blunders, like Demandred, Mesaana and Ishamael. You don't settle for trifles when you want to become Nae'blis. Its not many forsaken you can read like a book who can survive the War of Power.

 

Moiraine is stretching. Nothing in Fires of heaven implies her, and if her possibly surviving against all odds is all that speaks for her, then maybe Kadere survived being skinned and got a magical light-skin power to kill Asmodean.

 

Btw, I don't propose that gateway was reversed. I fear there wouldn't have been time to reverse the weave. It was no risk, she could call the thing off any minute if she'd chosen to. Glowing Embers shows us there was no risk, and indeed she did carry it through.

 

Graendal is stronger, because we know only she of all people in Randland could do it, and we don't have to invent new abilities for the Finns.

[Graendals favourite]

Besides, as a Finn myself, I can tell you we have enough ability as it is. And we don't just let people who come here go because they wish it. Just you bring here bright lights and loud music, and see what happens behind the shed :lol: ...

[havoc110]

I have to say that nothing I have seen has shown Moiraine to be a more viable suspect than before.

 

Also, nothing has been shown to diminish Graendal as a suspect.

 

Both light side suspects I have eliminated, Rand thru his POV, Moiraine thru the letter and her current situation (trapped in Finnland).

 

The dark suspects, most are eliminated thru confusion about Asmo's whereabouts in their own POV's. This includes Sammy, and Dem. Graendal only told an untruth during someone else's POV. This can be viewes as lying to cover up that she did it.

 

She has the means, motive, opportunity, and has no substantial evidence to eliminate her.

 

When I mentioned Moiraine as a suspect, I described that as 90/10 against. Looking at the poll results, the DM community feels about the same.

[Guest cwestervelt]

However' date=' it is clear both Lanfear and Moiraine had far greater priorities than Asmodean. It is not even clear Moiraine would have wished Asmo's death. Also, as always, our current understanding is, as RJ has stated, is that the Finns cannot affect the world outside their realm at all. Whatever magical powers they'd have to put either outside, they would not have the powers to yank someone back in from outside. There are so great obstacles in the way that I'm ready to simply state both were unavailable to be anywhere in Randland at the time of murder.[/quote']

 

RJ's comments really are contradictory to the stories. At least in the way you wish to interpret them. By your interpretation Mat was never hung from a spear caught in the branches of Avendesora after his return. After all, the Finn's can't affect "the world outside their realm at all." Well, he was, so obviously they can. So, if they can stick you anywhere they choose when they put you back out after finishing your business, it is just as likely that they can yank you back from anywhere if you aren't finished with them yet.

 

The only reason Graendal is still alive is that she is a minor character. Her dablings have proved nothing more than an inconvenience in a land that was racked by troubles long before she started meddling.

[Jedimuppet]

However' date=' it is clear both Lanfear and Moiraine had far greater priorities than Asmodean. It is not even clear Moiraine would have wished Asmo's death. Also, as always, our current understanding is, as RJ has stated, is that the Finns cannot affect the world outside their realm at all. Whatever magical powers they'd have to put either outside, they would not have the powers to yank someone back in from outside. There are so great obstacles in the way that I'm ready to simply state both were unavailable to be anywhere in Randland at the time of murder.[/quote']

 

RJ's comments really are contradictory to the stories. At least in the way you wish to interpret them. By your interpretation Mat was never hung from a spear caught in the branches of Avendesora after his return. After all, the Finn's can't affect "the world outside their realm at all." Well, he was, so obviously they can. So, if they can stick you anywhere they choose when they put you back out after finishing your business, it is just as likely that they can yank you back from anywhere if you aren't finished with them yet.

 

The only reason Graendal is still alive is that she is a minor character. Her dablings have proved nothing more than an inconvenience in a land that was racked by troubles long before she started meddling.

 

I disagree. I think in RJ's classic reveal slowly method, we're going to see how integral she is to many plots, both on the light and dark side. I think the fact that we're not seeing anything in her POV about Asmo is inconclusive, because she's always keeping secrets, manipulating etc, and RJ doesn't want to come out and say what's happened. It's not proof one way or the other is all that I mean by that.

 

I think we'll find that Graendal is a far more powerful force behind the scenes than we had originally been led to believe.

J

[havoc110]

I think we'll find that Graendal is a far more powerful force behind the scenes than we had originally been led to believe.

J

 

I think the same will be true for Mesaana and Demandred as well. Whatever it is these guys have been up to, I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be inconsequential.

 

Those who revealed their cards for the most part have been toasted by Team Light. But the ones that have kept things close to the vest have been plotting and consolidating power all along. Not coincidentally, these plans will all involve wresting the Nae'blis title from Ishy/Morry. Because for these guys this is the endgame scenario:

 

1) Kill/disable all other Forsaken and win the title of Nae'blis.

 

2) Defeat Rand at the Last Battle.

 

3) Rule forever in the name of the DO.

 

Look at some of the more powerful FS, and look how miserably they have failed at these 3 goals. I don't think any of the remaining participants can be brushed off as "minor characters".

[Paradoxic]

POVs work as such: If it is in a POV, it is truth. If it is not in a POV, it can't be false (because nothing was said). We can make assumptions as to why certain things weren't said in a POV, but we cannot simply say "well, she didn't talk about it, thus she didn't do it". By that logic, it had to be Moiraine because we've had POVs from every other possible subject since the murder and no one has said they killed Asmodean. For example, Lanfear obviously didn't do it because she had that POV about coming out of Finnland and didn't talk about her killing Asmodean during her time there.

 

Mat's hanging from the spear doesn't mean the Finns manipulated the outside world. If I remember correctly, the noose goes from his neck to the spear and the spear is stuck in the branches of the tree. Two possibilities are that the Finns could have come out of the doorway and set it up or the Finns could have sent servants (perhaps other normal people who are paying a price by remaining there) out of the doorway to set Mat up in the tree... or maybe they hooked Mat, spear, and all to some long poles and extended them out of the doorway and hooked the spear up on some of the branches.

 

As for importance to the story: Why should RJ talk about the murderer even if it is inconsequential to the story? Why shouldn't he keep the mystery going? I mean, look at how he completely ignored the identity of who released Fain until it was appropriate to the story for the truth to be released. In all honesty, it didn't have to be Ingtar, it could have been a random DF and we'd simply have never known and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference (even learning about Ingtar doesn't really change anything). I don't think that you can claim a suspect loses validity simply because they have been around a long time and the truth has yet to come out.

 

RJ isn't going to just give us the murderer's name on a silver platter (at least not before the final book) for his own reasons. The fact that he keeps giving out hints (according to him) in subsequent books means that he wants to keep the mystery going. There are zero hints about Moiraine in the subsequent books... not until KoD when we get the second letter from her. That definately goes against the idea that there were enough hints in the books up to TPoD to make the killer's identity obvious. Right?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's good to see some healthy debate again.

 

A lot of things are getting glossed over still.

 

The Graendal supporters keep ignoring her meeting with Moghedien. Jordan gave her an alibi. He reinforces that alibi through her lack of any personal knowledge of Asmo's fate in her later POV's. She not only doesn't know any more about Asmo's death than Demandred told her, she doesn't know anything about what really happened in Caemlyn than Demandred told her either. What she tells Sammael is nothing more than she has been told by Demandred plus the rumors she's heard concerning Lanfear. Then there's the whole laundry list of events and motivations that need to be invented in order to place her in Caemlyn; put her where she can see Asmo; psychically deduce where he's going; get there first; kill him; get away; all without being seen or detected. Pure wishful thinking which totally ignores the realities of the plot. It would take less conjecture to bring Rahvin back from the grave and make him the killer.

 

Lanfear was, from Cyndane's POV, held for some time by the Finns. Subsequently died, and went through the lengthy transmigration process before appearing again. Given her bitterness over that experience and its cost, she would have taken half a sentence to reflect on how killing Asmo was the only bright spot... IF she had done it. Her other obstacles also are the same as Moiraine's.

 

Anything concerning Moiraine being the killer has to be entirely made up on the spot. Proponents need to invent wishes for her. They then need to invent interpretations of those wishes that lead to Asmo's death. They have to invent ways for the Eelfinn to put her behind that door and then haul her back again. Way too much invention by the reader and way too little corroboration by the author.

 

The notion that it could only have been a channeler is entirely false. Vandene stuck a knife through Ceanne's heart while she is shielded and imprisoned in air. If a little old lady can stick a knife through somebody when held by the Power, so could anyone else.

 

The idea that the killer has not been specifically revealed because the revelation will trigger a major plot point is the only thing that makes any sense.

 

That leads to the idea that the killer is someone who is still close to Rand. Most likely either Dark or fanatically Light.

 

From Rand's POV just prior to the killing, we know that the palace IS empty. No cooks, no helpers, no scullery maids, no butlers, no housekeepers, no guards, no Trollocs, no Myrddraal ( so far as anyone can tell; they can hide in the shadows ). It's Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean, until Bashere walks in remarking on how he found nobody to either show him the way or announce him. We have Jordan's specific statement, which I've quoted elsewhere, that the DO did NOT order the killing.

 

So, it's either one of those other six people, or you buy into one set of wishlists or another for somebody else.

[Jedimuppet]

It's good to see some healthy debate again.

 

A lot of things are getting glossed over still.

 

The Graendal supporters keep ignoring her meeting with Moghedien. Jordan gave her an alibi. He reinforces that alibi through her lack of any personal knowledge of Asmo's fate in her later POV's. She not only doesn't know any more about Asmo's death than Demandred told her' date=' she doesn't know anything about what really happened in Caemlyn than Demandred told her either. What she tells Sammael is nothing more than she has been told by Demandred plus the rumors she's heard concerning Lanfear. Then there's the whole laundry list of events and motivations that need to be invented in order to place her in Caemlyn; put her where she can see Asmo; psychically deduce where he's going; get there first; kill him; get away; all without being seen or detected. Pure wishful thinking which totally ignores the realities of the plot. It would take less conjecture to bring Rahvin back from the grave and make him the killer.

 

Lanfear was, from Cyndane's POV, held for some time by the Finns. Subsequently died, and went through the lengthy transmigration process before appearing again. Given her bitterness over that experience and its cost, she would have taken half a sentence to reflect on how killing Asmo was the only bright spot... IF she had done it. Her other obstacles also are the same as Moiraine's.

 

Anything concerning Moiraine being the killer has to be entirely made up on the spot. Proponents need to invent wishes for her. They then need to invent interpretations of those wishes that lead to Asmo's death. They have to invent ways for the Eelfinn to put her behind that door and then haul her back again. Way too much invention by the reader and way too little corroboration by the author.

 

The notion that it could only have been a channeler is entirely false. Vandene stuck a knife through Ceanne's heart while she is shielded and imprisoned in air. If a little old lady can stick a knife through somebody when held by the Power, so could anyone else.

 

The idea that the killer has not been specifically revealed because the revelation will trigger a major plot point is the only thing that makes any sense.

 

That leads to the idea that the killer is someone who is still close to Rand. Most likely either Dark or fanatically Light.

 

From Rand's POV just prior to the killing, we know that the palace IS empty. No cooks, no helpers, no scullery maids, no butlers, no housekeepers, no guards, no Trollocs, no Myrddraal ( so far as anyone can tell; they can hide in the shadows ). It's Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean, until Bashere walks in remarking on how he found nobody to either show him the way or announce him.

 

So, it's either one of those other six people, or you buy into one set of wishlists or another for somebody else.[/quote']

 

I don't understand why you think a POV should contain everything. If you were an author and trying to keep something secret from your readers, you wouldn't spell it out just because you were in that person's head. I don't consider every action I've ever taken at all times, and I dont' know why you should expect that they would be reflecting on a murder gone and done, when there are other things to be though of here and now.

 

You must prove first why RJ *has* to indicate in a POV who the killer was if you want to use that as proof.

 

Further, why do you insist on the meeting with Moggy as being an alibi. You don't know anything about the meeting, except it was to have happened that day. How could a five minute detour effect anything one way or another?

 

I dont' think Lanfear did it, but I'm not going to go into RJ's head and say what *he* would think or say and put into a character's mind because I think he should. It's a murder mystery, and he's not going to spell it out for you. Accept it, and move onto another tact because that one will prove fruitless.

J

[Jedimuppet]

It's good to see some healthy debate again.

 

A lot of things are getting glossed over still.

 

The Graendal supporters keep ignoring her meeting with Moghedien. Jordan gave her an alibi. He reinforces that alibi through her lack of any personal knowledge of Asmo's fate in her later POV's. She not only doesn't know any more about Asmo's death than Demandred told her' date=' she doesn't know anything about what really happened in Caemlyn than Demandred told her either. What she tells Sammael is nothing more than she has been told by Demandred plus the rumors she's heard concerning Lanfear. Then there's the whole laundry list of events and motivations that need to be invented in order to place her in Caemlyn; put her where she can see Asmo; psychically deduce where he's going; get there first; kill him; get away; all without being seen or detected. Pure wishful thinking which totally ignores the realities of the plot. It would take less conjecture to bring Rahvin back from the grave and make him the killer.

 

Lanfear was, from Cyndane's POV, held for some time by the Finns. Subsequently died, and went through the lengthy transmigration process before appearing again. Given her bitterness over that experience and its cost, she would have taken half a sentence to reflect on how killing Asmo was the only bright spot... IF she had done it. Her other obstacles also are the same as Moiraine's.

 

Anything concerning Moiraine being the killer has to be entirely made up on the spot. Proponents need to invent wishes for her. They then need to invent interpretations of those wishes that lead to Asmo's death. They have to invent ways for the Eelfinn to put her behind that door and then haul her back again. Way too much invention by the reader and way too little corroboration by the author.

 

The notion that it could only have been a channeler is entirely false. Vandene stuck a knife through Ceanne's heart while she is shielded and imprisoned in air. If a little old lady can stick a knife through somebody when held by the Power, so could anyone else.

 

The idea that the killer has not been specifically revealed because the revelation will trigger a major plot point is the only thing that makes any sense.

 

That leads to the idea that the killer is someone who is still close to Rand. Most likely either Dark or fanatically Light.

 

From Rand's POV just prior to the killing, we know that the palace IS empty. No cooks, no helpers, no scullery maids, no butlers, no housekeepers, no guards, no Trollocs, no Myrddraal ( so far as anyone can tell; they can hide in the shadows ). It's Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean, until Bashere walks in remarking on how he found nobody to either show him the way or announce him.

 

So, it's either one of those other six people, or you buy into one set of wishlists or another for somebody else.[/quote']

 

Well we either buy into "wishlists" or your peculiar interpretations that don't flow smoothly from point a to b. You use too many words like must and "has to", when you really don't know. You impose your own rules on how RJ must function, much like you imposed your rules on what Fader must've meant. I don't think your starting points are correct, and as you hop down your logic trail, you go farther and farther afield.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not saying Jordan HAS to do anything in any POV. He WILL use a POV to advance the plot.

 

If the killer is one of the Forsaken, why conceal that fact? It makes no sense. Since any Forsaken would be expected to be the killer, concealing their involvement does not serve to advance the plot in any way. Nor does it set up any OMG revelation for later in the series. We already know these guys are BAD. Having killed Asmo is not going to make any Forsaken any more or less bad than what we already know.

 

Somebody we like. Maybe even have come to trust. Now, there's an OMG moment. Especially if it comes out as part of a betrayal of Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well we either buy into "wishlists" or your peculiar interpretations that don't flow smoothly from point a to b.

J

 

Nothing about this flows smoothly from a to b.

 

Inventing things that help smooth out and patch over the holes in the Graendal/Lanfear/Moiraine/MUST be a channeler camps doesn't make them any more logical or likely as the killers. It's just a lot of patching plaster and paint over a rotten structure that cannot stand on it's own. It may look really pretty, but it's still rotten and moldy underneath.

[havoc110]

From Rand's POV just prior to the killing' date=' we know that the palace IS empty. No cooks, no helpers, no scullery maids, no butlers, no housekeepers, no guards, no Trollocs, no Myrddraal ( so far as anyone can tell; they can hide in the shadows ). It's Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean, until Bashere walks in remarking on how he found nobody to either show him the way or announce him. We have Jordan's specific statement, which I've quoted elsewhere, that the DO did NOT order the killing.

[/quote']

 

You're taking statements made by people with incomplete information as fact. We know that Enaila and Somara believe that the palace is empty, but short of them saying "we searched every room of the palace looking for someone to cook you some soup, but we found no-one, so we made the soup", there is no way for them to have that knowledge.

 

Your logic of "since we saw no-one else, no one else must be present" is flawed. Just the same as "because we did not see a forsaken make a gateway, he/she could not have done so" is flawed.

 

If Graedal, Sammy, or any other FS has shown the ability to make a gateway into the palace while on-camera in the past, where is your logic in saying there is no way they could accomplish this while off-camera.

 

Save your breath, there is no such reasoning.

[Jedimuppet]

I'm not saying Jordan HAS to do anything in any POV. He WILL use a POV to advance the plot.

 

If the killer is one of the Forsaken' date=' why conceal that fact? It makes no sense. Since any Forsaken would be expected to be the killer, concealing their involvement does not serve to advance the plot in any way. Nor does it set up any OMG revelation for later in the series. We already know these guys are BAD. Having killed Asmo is not going to make any Forsaken any more or less bad than what we already know.

 

Somebody we like. Maybe even have come to trust. Now, there's an OMG moment. Especially if it comes out as part of a betrayal of Rand.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. You say that you're not indicating what RJ *has* to do, just what he *will* do. You indicate that he *will* use POV's to advance the plot, and then assume that you know exactly how/when he'll do that.

 

That's the part of your reasoning that I find spurious. You can't say that because something hasn't occured, and you know you would've done it that way that that's what RJ would've done.

 

I've noticed a trend where you refer to facts and known quantities that are nothing of the sort. The point is you don't know why something hasn't occured in a POV, just like you don't know who killed Asmo.

 

You say that it makes no sense to conceal the fact, yet you addmitedly don't know all of the Forsaken's plans. Without knowing their plans, how can you say you *know* what makes sense for them to do or not do?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

From all of the books, we "know" two things for certain.

 

1. The Forsaken are dedicated to freeing the DO.

2. They are equally dedicated to knifing each other in the back until they are the only one left standing and thus becoming Nae'blis.

 

How does concealing that *put favorite Forsaken here* killed Asmo make him/her any more likely to accomplish either of those tasks? How does such concealment make the reader any more or less surprised that one of them offed another? How does such concealment give the killer some advantage over any of the others? Or, give them a hidden advantage over Rand? Or, even an overt advantage over Rand?

 

What plot device is served by keeping the identity of the killer secret IF that killer is one of the Forsaken?

 

But, most telling to me - if the killer is one of the Forsaken, why, according to Fader's research into Jordan's statements, have only two people correctly identified him/her?

[Graendals favourite]

You seem to know the Forsaken and RJ quite well, Bob. Why don't you try including a "not" into those questions, and see if you might get further?

 

To the last: The name isn't enough, you have to supply how it happened, and the evidence for it. Going through all the people ever mentioned in the books is not producing a solution, or figuring out the killer.

[Thorum]

Bela is Demandred or Mesaana in disguise; and she had every opportunity wishable to kill Asmodean and a good reason too (Naeblis, betrayel of the DO, ..., you know)

[Jedimuppet]

From all of the books' date=' we "know" two things for certain.

 

1. The Forsaken are dedicated to freeing the DO.

2. They are equally dedicated to knifing each other in the back until they are the only one left standing and thus becoming Nae'blis.

 

How does concealing that *put favorite Forsaken here* killed Asmo make him/her any more likely to accomplish either of those tasks? How does such concealment make the reader any more or less surprised that one of them offed another? How does such concealment give the killer some advantage over any of the others? Or, give them a hidden advantage over Rand? Or, even an overt advantage over Rand?

 

What plot device is served by keeping the identity of the killer secret IF that killer is one of the Forsaken?

 

But, most telling to me - if the killer is one of the Forsaken, why, according to Fader's research into Jordan's statements, have only two people correctly identified him/her?[/quote']

 

Bob, you always argue like this. You state things as fact, thus getting around your "speculation ban", but you're just wrapping your own speculation. I think you'd find people listen to your thoughts more if you admit that they are just that: your thoughts. It seems like you're dealing with educated people here, who are experienced in reading critically. It's hard to take your positions seriously when they tend to be based on a "if I was RJ, I would..." kind of reasoning. I know you haven't come out and said that, but the path of your logic implies it.

 

Of course that might be ok if you weren't so quick to point out our "logical" flaws. Mostly, though, I can't get you to answer any real questions. For instance you claim Graendel should've been meeting Moggy, and thus couldn't have been there, but you don't supply how you know how long that meeting was to be or why both could've have occured. Never one answer to that, but yet you "know".

 

Further, you claim to know why Rj would certainly write a certain way, telling us what the forsaken are all about and what the thoughts we see tell us about the thougths that we don't. You seem to indicate that if we dont' seem them thinking it, then they are not thinking it.

 

Until you can resolve these concerns, I'm not sure how well we can communicate on this topic. You think that people are unwilling to accept your ideas, but it's your methods that we object to.

 

Please carefully consider what you "know" to be true vs what you "think" to be true. Read back and see how you've consistently put forward the latter and called it the former, whether it be Fader's post or that BF always does whatever you think it does independent of the strength of the channeler. None of these ideas are "bad" but when supported on vacuous logic, you can't expect people to lend them much credence.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not just me. Anybody putting forth a suspect has to supply such evidence.

 

Evidence not pure conjecture.

 

All you and the Graendal supporters have is conjecture. Nothing but conjecture for the Moiraine and Lanfear supporters, either.

 

One place such evidence might come from is a POV. There has been no Forsaken POV that even hints at any involvement in Asmo's killing.

 

That doesn't "prove" anything, but it's a fair hint that there's nothing there to be revealed.