one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Maj' date=' his statements read as fact. I have to take them as facts.

 

Perhaps you might persuade the man to clarify what he wrote? I'd prefer to hear from him that he mispoke.[/quote']

 

All the facts you need are that RJ never said that. Fader is inferring those conclusions from the text. He comes right out and says it when he says

 

"More on this, using the wording from the books, later. "

J

[Jedimuppet]

:) ' date=' Graendal was in that pantry, because she saw him, decided to try to kill him, and followed him there. When she saw him approach the panty door, she saw a good opportunity, and Travelled behind the door to both surprise Asmo and deliver a close quick killing weave.

 

If we're now allowed to speculate, I say she used reversed compulsion, in the fine degree Sammael thought Graendal was perhaps the best ever, to induce in Asmodean the sense of boredom that made him leave and wander off alone.[/quote']

 

So do you think she was there because she wanted to look for some of Rahvin's stuff?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly. Nuff said..

 

Anyway' date=' Graendel is still in it...

J[/quote']

 

No, she isn't. Just because you want to believe a person meant something other than what they plainly wrote does not make your wish true.

 

That's the whole trouble with this "debate." Everybody wants Jordan to have really meant something other than what he wrote. What he "really meant" for each of you is something different, of course, depending on which wishful suspect you favor.

 

Why can't you guys just deal with what the author put on the page? Jordan seems to have a thorough grasp of the English language. Each word he uses has a plainly understood meaning.

[Graendals favourite]

So do you think she was there because she wanted to look for some of Rahvin's stuff?

 

Not, really, I think she was there to get first-hand info of events on that very special day.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, Jedi, but unless you or Maj is really fader posting under a separate account, I don't think you're qualified to tell us what he meant.

 

Until he tells us differently, what he stated as fact has to be taken as fact.

[Guest Majsju]

So do you think she was there because she wanted to look for some of Rahvin's stuff?

 

Not' date=' really, I think she was there to get first-hand info of events on that very special day.[/quote']

 

Which is the scenario that makes most sense. She was supposed to meet Rahvin somewhere, and must have wondered what the heck is keeping him.

[Jedimuppet]

Sorry' date=' Jedi, but unless you or Maj is really fader posting under a separate account, I don't think you're qualified to tell us what he meant.

 

Until he tells us differently, what he stated as fact has to be taken as fact.[/quote']

 

But you are? You're categorically stating what he said, and hitting us over the head with it. It's in plain English, read it again..

 

This is a pointless sidetrack..

J

[Guest Majsju]

Bob, it is easier to understand what someone means if you read the entire post, and not only the one or two sentences you want to use to try to make a claim.

[Jedimuppet]

So do you think she was there because she wanted to look for some of Rahvin's stuff?

 

Not' date=' really, I think she was there to get first-hand info of events on that very special day.[/quote']

 

Which is the scenario that makes most sense. She was supposed to meet Rahvin somewhere, and must have wondered what the heck is keeping him.

 

I like that, and it also fits the whole intuitively obvious thing.

J

[Paradoxic]

As odd as this sounds, my personal suspect for Asmodean's killer is Avihenda.

 

Yes, I'm serious.

 

I can write out a REALLY long thesis on this topic, which I have been meaning to do for a LONG time, but I've just never gotten around to it.

 

I began by reading RJ's quotes on the killer. The FIRST one that jumped out to me was that over the course of the series, only TWO people have sucessfully guessed who it was, and had evidence to prove it. Now, RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him. RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.

 

I have read numerous theories that proposed that Asmo's death was not planned. The "He walked in on a maid stealing wine" theory. I believe this theory (and it's many variants) to be flawed. Would a maid hide the body in a way to so completely conceal his death? Could she have done it? It is quite obvious to the forsaken that Asmodean was dead, but Rand's crew didn't seem to know. TO me, this indicates that the disposal of the body was key to concealing a planned hit, not a murder done in the heat of the moment.

 

Rj has stated that it is possible to tell, at the moment of Asmo's death, who the killer is. In TFoH, we did not know the DO was giving people new bodies. Shaidar haran hadn't shown up yet.

 

More on this, using the wording from the books, later. I need a nap right now.

 

That is Fader's original post refered to by Bob, I imagine?

 

Well, I can say that I've never seen these RJ quotes. There is this famous quote (from a CNN online Q&A with RJ) -

 

 

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

 

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

This does NOT indicate RJ saying either way regarding Graendal as killer. He is addressing only the 'question' part of Vercingetorix's question. I've never ever seen a quote that lists the number of people who had guessed right. Even if it did exist, it is useless now because it happened awhile ago (I know there hasn't been anything in the last few years).

 

On a side note, RJ's quote above does support my "the murderer isn't important, he's staying silent to screw with us" hypothesis.

[Jedimuppet]

As odd as this sounds' date=' my personal suspect for Asmodean's killer is Avihenda.

 

Yes, I'm serious.

 

I can write out a REALLY long thesis on this topic, which I have been meaning to do for a LONG time, but I've just never gotten around to it.

 

I began by reading RJ's quotes on the killer. The FIRST one that jumped out to me was that over the course of the series, only TWO people have sucessfully guessed who it was, and had evidence to prove it. Now, RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him. RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.

 

I have read numerous theories that proposed that Asmo's death was not planned. The "He walked in on a maid stealing wine" theory. I believe this theory (and it's many variants) to be flawed. Would a maid hide the body in a way to so completely conceal his death? Could she have done it? It is quite obvious to the forsaken that Asmodean was dead, but Rand's crew didn't seem to know. TO me, this indicates that the disposal of the body was key to concealing a planned hit, not a murder done in the heat of the moment.

 

Rj has stated that it is possible to tell, at the moment of Asmo's death, who the killer is. In TFoH, we did not know the DO was giving people new bodies. Shaidar haran hadn't shown up yet.

 

More on this, using the wording from the books, later. I need a nap right now.[/quote']

 

That is Fader's original post refered to by Bob, I imagine?

 

Well, I can say that I've never seen these RJ quotes. There is this famous quote (from a CNN online Q&A with RJ) -

 

 

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

 

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

This does NOT indicate RJ saying either way regarding Graendal as killer. He is addressing only the 'question' part of Vercingetorix's question. I've never ever seen a quote that lists the number of people who had guessed right. Even if it did exist, it is useless now because it happened awhile ago (I know there hasn't been anything in the last few years).

 

On a side note, RJ's quote above does support my "the murderer isn't important, he's staying silent to screw with us" hypothesis.

 

Yeah, I think it's funny that Bob's authoratative source thinks Avi did it. No disrespect intended towards him, but that's a pretty out there theory.

 

As far as being screwed with by RJ, I think you hit it on the head. He's messing with us.

 

So, how did Graendal know what was going down in Caemlyn again? I thought Rand had hidden his tracks fairly well..Didn't everyone think he was moving on Sammael?

J

[havoc110]

She was supposed to meet Rahvin somewhere' date=' and must have wondered what the heck is keeping him.[/quote']

 

I thought she was supposed to meet Moggy. After all, she was with Rahvin, Sammy and Lanfear in Illian the previous night waiting to link and ambush Rand after Mat's assassination.

[Guest Majsju]

She was supposed to meet Rahvin somewhere' date=' and must have wondered what the heck is keeping him.[/quote']

 

I thought she was supposed to meet Moggy. After all, she was with Rahvin, Sammy and Lanfear in Illian the previous night waiting to link and ambush Rand after Mat's assassination.

 

I highly doubt they spent the night together waiting in Illian. Especially not since we know that both Lanfear and Rahvin were elsewhere the day after.

 

 

Now, to return to fader's post, and lift out the entire passage that is elevant, and not just a few sentences ripped out of context like Bob prefers to do...

 

I began by reading RJ's quotes on the killer. The FIRST one that jumped out to me was that over the course of the series, only TWO people have sucessfully guessed who it was, and had evidence to prove it. Now, RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him. RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.>

 

What fader actually says, is that he first interprets RJ's atuthentic quote about only two people having got it right as only two people having actually been able to pick the killer. This is most likely an incorrect interpretation in itself. RJ has a background in physics, which means that he has the physicists view on solving a problem. Coming up with the correct answer is not enough, you must also be able to show how you came up with that answer, show what information you used, and how you used it.

 

Now, because of fader's incorrect interpretation of that quote, he draws the conclusion that it can't be one of the more obvious candidates, which rules out all Forsaken, including Graendal. That's how he found a quote saying Graendal didn't do it.

[havoc110]

On the contrary, I think that they all were in Illian, and probably all night.

 

For example, how would they know when Melindhra would have the opportunity to kill Mat? Synch their watches? No, I think they had to wait. They had worked up this plan for a while, so you'd think they'd all be ready.

 

Of course Lanfear and Rahvin are in different places the following day: Lanfear is looking for intel. Clearly, the trap did not go as planned, and she is trying to find out what Rand is doing.

 

Rahvin, on the other hand, he has an pretty good idea what Rand is doing...

Logic says, Rand didn't come after Sammy, Mat is therefore probably alive, so Rand is coming after me (for allegedly killing Morgase).

 

I only stress this stuff because I think it is meaningful, only I just don't know how yet.

[havoc110]

I do agree that RJ has left a big tangle of quotes that are open to interpretation (and mis-interpretation).

 

So I don't think that it is realistic to use stuff like "2 people", "roadkill", or the infamous "Graendal did it" quote to build a case around.

 

Of course I have my own interpretations of all those quotes, too. I just try to keep them out of the pool of available evidence.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj,

 

Would you at least do fader the courtesy of allowing him to speak for himself? So far as I know he needs neither an interpreter nor a spin doctor.

 

Two with evidence means "two with evidence". Confirmed means "confirmed"

[havoc110]

"Confirmed" doesn't mean squadoosh.

 

I could say that in the CNN interview, RJ "confirmed" that Graendal was the killer.

 

That is ME, interpreting RJ's words, and using the word "confirmed."

 

To my knowledge, RJ has never said anything resembling: "Graendal didn't kill Asmodean". And for me, that is the only way RJ could confirm that Graendal didn't do it.

 

And I still wouldn't treat that "confirmed" as a stone-cold-lead-pipe-mortal lock.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Agreed. But, you're not the one with the credibility of the site resting on your shoulders. Fader, as a site admin, is. That tends to limit how loosely he can allow himself to speak.

 

Returning to fader's exact words: RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.

 

Note the lack of any qualifiers. It's "confirmed." Not, "confirmed for me," or "decided me that," or "convinced me," or anything other than "confirmed."

[Jedimuppet]

Agreed. But' date=' you're not the one with the credibility of the site resting on your shoulders. Fader, as a site admin, is. That tends to limit how loosely he can allow himself to speak.

 

Returning to fader's exact words: [b']RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.[/b]

 

Note the lack of any qualifiers. It's "confirmed." Not, "confirmed for me," or "decided me that," or "convinced me," or anything other than "confirmed."

 

Notice your lack of qualifiers when discussing "facts". This sophistry is getting tedious.

J

[havoc110]

I think Fader is just posting a theory, just like everyone else. It's not like he knows Avi did it (heck, maybe he does, but he doesn't present it that way).

 

I PM'd Fader and asked him to give more on his theory, especially these quotes that "confirm" things. If he is talking about the quotes in the public record, IIRC, IMHO there are no quotes "confirming" what he said.

 

If you, Fader, or anybody else posting, or lurking on this thread has RJ quotes that read like "Graendal didn't do it" or "(Any other character) didn't do it", then post 'em up here and we can discuss them.

 

It's not like if he would post a theory later proven to be wrong, that it would discredit the site in some way.

[Jedimuppet]

I think Fader is just posting a theory' date=' just like everyone else. It's not like he knows Avi did it (heck, maybe he does, but he doesn't present it that way).

 

I PM'd Fader and asked him to give more on his theory, especially these quotes that "confirm" things. If he is talking about the quotes in the public record, IIRC, IMHO there are no quotes "confirming" what he said.

 

If you, Fader, or anybody else posting, or lurking on this thread has RJ quotes that read like "Graendal didn't do it" or "(Any other character) didn't do it", then post 'em up here and we can discuss them.

 

It's not like if he would post a theory later proven to be wrong, that it would discredit the site in some way.[/quote']

 

Well the part that Bob refuses to read is the part where Fader straight out says that he bases his opinions on the text. What he very clearly states is given his reading of the text, RJ's quotes confirm it can't be Graendal. It's obvious RJ never said any such thing and if Bob wasn't being so stubborn, it would be clear.

 

Generally if someone knows how to write, they don't need an interpreter. Reading someones words and understanding the meaning is neither "spin doctoring" or interpreting. It is called reading comprehension.

 

Bob's reaction is a classic example of why we have rumors in our society. Because one person says somebody said something, Bob feels he can go around and quote the original person as if it was a "fact" without looking into it himself. Then he tells us that we're intellectually lazy, when we're not the ones that are confused.

 

This is silliness, and I still think Graendal did it :P

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's try to separate out all the things you've lumped together here.

 

1. Aviendha is fader's theory. It is clearly presented as theory.

 

2. "I began by reading RJ's quotes on the killer. The FIRST one that jumped out to me was that over the course of the series, only TWO people have sucessfully guessed who it was, and had evidence to prove it.", is a statement of fact. Whether fader is correct or not isn't an issue with this statement. It is clearly presented as fact.

 

3. "RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.", is also a clear presentation of fact. Nothing the least bit theoretical about this statement.

 

4. I can only presume that since fader helps administer this site that he would be very careful about what he presents as fact. A responsible admin would not use a word like "confirmed" as loosely as you seem to believe he did.

[Bob T Dwarf]

This is silliness' date=' and I still think Graendal did it :P

J[/quote']

 

You and everybody else. So how come Jordan has only found two people who are right, and have the evidence to back it up?

[Jedimuppet]

This is silliness' date=' and I still think Graendal did it :P

J[/quote']

 

You and everybody else. So how come Jordan has only found two people who are right, and have the evidence to back it up?

 

I don't know, and I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know. I don't parse his words like you do. I don't feel the need to go back to page five and rehash some guys opinion as fact to bolster my case, when it's obvious to everyone but you that it's an opinion. You're hung up on the fact that Fader used the word confirm. I wouldn't even care, except you're using it to beat down other people on the forum, and you're wrong about it.

 

If you look at your reasoning in your first post, it's all based on tenuous speculation on your part about somebody else's speculation. Then you have the never to tell us we don't think things through using your tenuous speculation as fact to prove your point. It's circular, and it's flawed logic.

 

As far as only two people getting it right, I think *you* should read the previous posts, and you'll find that Maj gave that a credible response. I won't rehash it for you; you can find it on the last page.

 

Avi really has nothing to do with this disucssion, except that that's where his "facts" took him. I don't think he presented them as facts, but since you're taking them that way, that's how I'll label them. You have to ask yourself how you can say that one part of what he says is factual when it was contrived to support a theory. Or maybe you don't; I don't care.

J

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, but on this issue, I haven't speculated a bit.

 

I've reproduced what fader posted. I've done him the courtesy to believe he meant exactly what he said. I've asked that others also extend him that same courtesy. To not reinterpret his words to suit their own preconceptions.

 

Nothing tenuous. No speculation.