Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Suttree]

Wasn't Elayne to become queen according to Andor's own laws?

 

The High Seats had no idea of Elayne's whereabouts and whether she was alive or dead. That is what started the Fourth Succession War.

 

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces.

 

There is nothing to assume, the text makes it very clear what Dyelin's course of action would be. This is no idle threat as Andor can field 200,000+ men. Marne was able to assemble 30,000 when besieging Andor and Dyelin had far more support than her. Another thing to keep in mind is Rand held Caemlyn and nothing more, rebels would be free to operate in the entire rest of the country. Would Rand and the Aiel win? Most likely but it would be the definition of a pyrrhic victory and would cripple the lights forces heading into TG.

[MasterAblar]

 

He did and it likely made things more difficult...

 

LoC

"A reward offered for news of Elayne," Ellorien said flatly, her face becoming even stonier, "who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

What Piotrek said.

 

But that's exactly what he did. He left, Dyelin became regent and then Elayne held the city and went about earning the needed votes.

 

Well yes but he hardly left of his own free will. Elenia and Naean only tried to claim the throne after the Aes Sedai kiddnapped Rand.

[Suttree]

What Piotrek said.

 

See above.

 

But that's exactly what he did. He left, Dyelin became regent and then Elayne held the city and went about earning the needed votes.

 

Well yes but he hardly left of his own free will. Elenia and Naean only tried to claim the throne after the Aes Sedai kiddnapped Rand.

 

As has been stated many times in this thread, it would have been a far greater disaster for Rand to be seen to hand the throne to Elayne.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Wasn't Elayne to become queen according to Andor's own laws?

 

The High Seats had no idea of Elayne's whereabouts and whether she was alive or dead. That is what started the Fourth Succession War.

 

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces.

 

There is nothing to assume, the text makes it very clear what Dyelin's course of action would be. This is no idle threat as Andor can field 200,000+ men. Marne was able to assemble 30,000 when besieging Andor and Dyelin had far more support than her. Another thing to keep in mind is Rand held Caemlyn and nothing more, rebels would be free to operate in the entire rest of the country. Would Rand and the Aiel win? Most likely but it would be the definition of a pyrrhic victory and would cripple the lights forces heading into TG.

 

Of course any fighting would be tragic and unnecessary. I only think Elayne's proud defiance had a wrong adressee, that's all.

 

Still, to discuss the hypothetical rebellion scenario, I think Rand would have little problem with crushing it.

First, the rebels would not be able to raise all these 200,000 soldiers, because their armies would be destroyed faster then they could amass. Aiel, Saldean cavalry and Asha'man make not only elite strike force, but are all prepared for very fast offensive operations, something Andor's levee en masse would have no chance against. They would be like Poland's army in 1939, confronted with blitzkrieg.

Second, most of Andor's soldiers are not regulars, while Rand has elite, regular and experienced soldiers. And channelers with battle experience. It would be a massacre for the rebels.

Third, probably not all the important nobles would rebel. Maybe not even the majority. Take into account that Elayne had trouble with Arymilla despite having queen's guards, help from the kin, control over Caemlyn etc.

Forth, the commoners would probably take an equivocal stance. On one hand traditions and pride of Andor, on th other their tirednes with Trakands and various other nobles. If Rand could try to play "people's champion" card against the nobles, maybe also exploiting popular antypathy towards Aes SEdai, he could have most of Andor's populace behind him.

 

But all these are just speculations. It would be a bad thing for everybody.

[MasterAblar]

Wasn't Elayne to become queen according to Andor's own laws?

 

The High Seats had no idea of Elayne's whereabouts and whether she was alive or dead. That is what started the Fourth Succession War.

 

What started it is Rand being kiddnapped by the Aes Sedai. Had that never happened, no one would have rebelled and Elayne would have had no war to fight.

 

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces.

 

There is nothing to assume, the text makes it very clear what Dyelin's course of action would be. This is no idle threat as Andor can field 200,000+ men. Marne was able to assemble 30,000 when besieging Andor and Dyelin had far more support than her. Another thing to keep in mind is Rand held Caemlyn and nothing more, rebels would be free to operate in the entire rest of the country. Would Rand and the Aiel win? Most likely but it would be the definition of a pyrrhic victory and would cripple the lights forces heading into TG.

 

200 000 men (many of whom would be farmers), are not fielded in a day. It would take quite a bit of time for Andor to gather it's armies, and 200 000 is the maximum the whole of Andor can field on a good day, and not all nobles are like Dyelin and those who supported her. Rand would not wait for that army to gather together. He would destroy it piece by piece, and he has the huge advantage of having travelling which means distance would mean nothing to him. And with the Ashaman, it wouldn't be a battle, it would be a slaughter, just like with the shaido (who are quite a bit more skilled than farmers).

[Suttree]

The High Seats had no idea of Elayne's whereabouts and whether she was alive or dead. That is what started the Fourth Succession War.

 

What started it is Rand being kiddnapped by the Aes Sedai. Had that never happened, no one would have rebelled and Elayne would have had no war to fight.

 

Not true, it was Elayne's absence(fixing the weather in Ebou Dar). Dyelin made clear what would happen had Rand stayed and Elayne not arrived.

 

On one hand traditions and pride of Andor, on th other their tirednes with Trakands and various other nobles. If Rand could try to play "people's champion" card against the nobles, maybe also exploiting popular antypathy towards Aes SEdai, he could have most of Andor's populace behind him.

 

Wrong, RJ has given us the public's sentiment and it is very anti Rand.

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

“Oh, it’s true, my lady, so it is; Elayne’s alive,” a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. “The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself,” he allowed. “The news is all over. ’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self.

Elayne heard a great deal about Rand, rumors ranging from him swearing fealty to Elaida to him being the King of Illian, of all things. In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

As to your and Mastar Ablar's point of destroying Andoran forces before they could assemble, I believe a guerilla war such as Ituralde(they did fine facing damane and ashaman are much the same) waged against the Seanchan would be the way to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they would have defeated him. Once again however it would have been a classic phyrric victory for Rand and the Light.

[MasterAblar]

As has been stated many times in this thread, it would have been a far greater disaster for Rand to be seen to hand the throne to Elayne.

 

Of course, but if there is no rebellion, then no one is contesting Elayne's right to the throne. Elayne arrives in Caemlyn and claims the throne as hers by right of succession. Rand then leaves having ensured that no one has usurped Elayne's throne. Officially he hasn't given her the throne (only stopped others from trying to rebel), just like officially no one has contested Elayne's right to the throne (whereas some nobles, such as those who were with Dyelin, did not really want Elayne as Queen. They just wouldn't officially rebel against her while Rand was in Andor).

[Suttree]

Of course, but if there is no rebellion, then no one is contesting Elayne's right to the throne. Elayne arrives in Caemlyn and claims the throne as hers by right of succession.

 

You keep forgetting that Dyelin and the nobles placed a time limit on Rand's stay, Elayne was in Ebou Dar fixing the weather and not returning anytime soon. It was over two months from the time Rand left for Cairhein to Elayne returning to Caemlyn.

[MasterAblar]

The High Seats had no idea of Elayne's whereabouts and whether she was alive or dead. That is what started the Fourth Succession War.

 

What started it is Rand being kiddnapped by the Aes Sedai. Had that never happened, no one would have rebelled and Elayne would have had no war to fight.

 

Not true, it was Elayne's absence(fixing the weather in Ebou Dar). Dyelin made clear what would happen had Rand stayed and Elayne not arrived.

 

Bashere says that Elenia and Naean tried to claim the throne when they heard that Rand was going to Tar Valon. Before then there was no rebellion. Not that much time passes between the end of LoC and Elayne's return to Andor in PoD.

 

Eventually had Elayne taken too long to return, Dyelin would surely have rebelled. But Elayne would have returned before that happened.

 

On one hand traditions and pride of Andor, on th other their tirednes with Trakands and various other nobles. If Rand could try to play "people's champion" card against the nobles, maybe also exploiting popular antypathy towards Aes SEdai, he could have most of Andor's populace behind him.

 

Wrong, RJ has given us the public's sentiment and it is very anti Rand.

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

“Oh, it’s true, my lady, so it is; Elayne’s alive,” a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. “The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself,” he allowed. “The news is all over. ’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self.

Elayne heard a great deal about Rand, rumors ranging from him swearing fealty to Elaida to him being the King of Illian, of all things. In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

As to your and Mastar Ablar's point of destroying Andoran forces before they could assemble, I believe a guerilla war such as Ituralde(they did fine facing damane and ashaman are much the same) waged against the Seanchan would be the way to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they would have defeated him. Once again however it would have been a classic phyrric victory for Rand and the Light.

 

Ashaman can go under cover. Damane can not.

[MasterAblar]

Of course, but if there is no rebellion, then no one is contesting Elayne's right to the throne. Elayne arrives in Caemlyn and claims the throne as hers by right of succession.

 

You keep forgetting that Dyelin and the nobles placed a time limit on Rand's stay, Elayne was in Ebou Dar fixing the weather and not returning anytime soon. It was over two months from the time Rand left for Cairhein to Elayne returning to Caemlyn.

 

2 months? Elayne returned to Andor (not Caemlyn) 25 days after Rand's kiddnapping.

[Suttree]

Bashere says that Elenia and Naean tried to claim the throne when they heard that Rand was going to Tar Valon. Before then there was no rebellion. Not that much time passes between the end of LoC and Elayne's return to Andor in PoD.

 

Per Steven Cooper Rand leaves for Cairhein on Dec 5 and Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8.

[MasterAblar]

Bashere says that Elenia and Naean tried to claim the throne when they heard that Rand was going to Tar Valon. Before then there was no rebellion. Not that much time passes between the end of LoC and Elayne's return to Andor in PoD.

 

Per Steven Cooper Rand leaves for Cairhein on Dec 5 and Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8.

 

Rand leaving for Cairhien isn't what led to Elenia and Naean trying to claim the throne. He did that all the time. It's the news that Rand was going to Andor which caused them to act. That happened on Dec 30th.

 

Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8th although it's possible that Rand might have learned she was in Andor before then. Still considering LoC lasted 2 months, there's no reason to suspect that Dyelin would have rebelled against Rand within 1 more month.

[Guest PiotrekS]

On one hand traditions and pride of Andor, on th other their tirednes with Trakands and various other nobles. If Rand could try to play "people's champion" card against the nobles, maybe also exploiting popular antypathy towards Aes SEdai, he could have most of Andor's populace behind him.

 

Wrong, RJ has given us the public's sentiment and it is very anti Rand.

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

“Oh, it’s true, my lady, so it is; Elayne’s alive,” a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. “The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself,” he allowed. “The news is all over. ’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self.

Elayne heard a great deal about Rand, rumors ranging from him swearing fealty to Elaida to him being the King of Illian, of all things. In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

Can't argue with that.

 

As to the guerilla warfare, I don't think it would be possible. Not good enough soldiers, not good enough generals, also Andor is probably too "civilized" (meaning big cities connected with roads, river ways etc.) to be accommodating ground for guerilla warfare.

[Suttree]

Bashere says that Elenia and Naean tried to claim the throne when they heard that Rand was going to Tar Valon. Before then there was no rebellion. Not that much time passes between the end of LoC and Elayne's return to Andor in PoD.

 

Per Steven Cooper Rand leaves for Cairhein on Dec 5 and Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8.

 

Rand leaving for Cairhien isn't what led to Elenia and Naean trying to claim the throne. He did that all the time. It's the news that Rand was going to Andor which caused them to act. That happened on Dec 30th.

 

Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8th although it's possible that Rand might have learned she was in Andor before then. Still considering LoC lasted 2 months, there's no reason to suspect that Dyelin would have rebelled against Rand within 1 more month.

 

They were imprisoned on Dec 30, they obviously started planing/maneuvering for their rebellion before then. One other thing no one has brought up are the other lesser lords and ladies that tried to start the rebellion for Dyelin out in Aringill. That happened while the DR held control so out goes the theory that his mere presence would stop it.

 

Also the fact remains Rand left on that date(Dec 5) and never returned.

 

As for Dyelin the reason we have to suspect is the oft quoted speech to Rand where she flat out told him her intentions had he stayed, that is combined with the anti-DR sentiment of the general populace that was bubbling over. With travelling there is no way it should have taken over a month to return Elayne to her proper place had Rand not disappeared. I feel strongly she would have acted during that time.

[MasterAblar]

Bashere says that Elenia and Naean tried to claim the throne when they heard that Rand was going to Tar Valon. Before then there was no rebellion. Not that much time passes between the end of LoC and Elayne's return to Andor in PoD.

 

Per Steven Cooper Rand leaves for Cairhein on Dec 5 and Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8.

 

Rand leaving for Cairhien isn't what led to Elenia and Naean trying to claim the throne. He did that all the time. It's the news that Rand was going to Andor which caused them to act. That happened on Dec 30th.

 

Elayne returns to Caemlyn on Feb 8th although it's possible that Rand might have learned she was in Andor before then. Still considering LoC lasted 2 months, there's no reason to suspect that Dyelin would have rebelled against Rand within 1 more month.

 

They were imprisoned on Dec 30, they obviously started planing/maneuvering for their rebellion before then. Also the fact remains Rand left on that date and never returned.

 

As for Dyelin the reason we have to suspect is the oft quoted speech to Rand where she flat out told him her intentions had he stayed, that is combined with the anti-DR sentiment of the general populace that was bubbling over. With travelling there is no way it should have taken that long to return Elayne to her proper place had Rand not disappeared. I feel strongly she would have acted during that time.

 

That doesn't change the fact that Dec 30 is when they acted and therefore when Dyelin acted and was declared regent. Up until Dec 30 she showed no sign of rebelling. Then she was put as regent because Rand had seemingly left, not because she was done with waiting for him to bring back Elayne.

 

Travelling is only good if you know where to go. Personally I feel that if she waited 2 months there's no reason she couldn't have waited a third, especially if Rand tells her he's located Elayne and is only waiting for her to be brought back. While Dyelin is willing to fight the Dragon Reborn if she must, I doubt she is eager to. Also I don't see what the general populace matters. They rarely saw Rand himself, they saw the Aiel, which to them meant Rand was still there, which we can see in the Elayne chapter from PoD where the people are talking about forcing Rand out. And they never acted before Elayne arrived in Caemlyn.

[MasterAblar]

Also the fact remains Rand left on that date(Dec 5) and never returned.

 

Rand did that all the time. They had no reason to believe that it would be permanent this time. After all his armies were still there.

 

One other thing no one has brought up are the other lesser lords and ladies that tried to start the rebellion for Dyelin out in Aringill. That happened while the DR held control so out goes the theory that his mere presence would stop it.

 

I don't remember it being specified when that happened.

 

Regardless it's Dyelin who matters, and clearly she was still waiting for Rand to bring Elayne back.

[LeeM.Erickson]

You're right, it was Egwene who told her. She also tells Elayne that she didn't think Rand meant it that way, which I think is correct. When Rand first meets Bashere, he tells him that as Elayne was the daughter heir, she is queen now, so it seems to me that he believes Elayne has a right to the throne. I really think it is just a misunderstanding (not that those are uncommon in this series).

 

Yeah, I guess it came down to a failure of communication. And maybe I was too hard on Elayne, being a reader with knowledge she didn't possess, I suppose I can't blame her for being upset with Rand. She still had very little chance of getting the throne without him, though.

 

It's not the first time that mixed messages cause a lot of impact though. Like the way every single person who saw Rand's display of the Lion Throne misinterpreted it as him keeping it there as a trophy. It had the total opposite effect that he wanted it to have.

[XXX]

The bottom line and something obvious to everyone reading the series is that if Rand wanted to keep Andor for himself..he could have.

With the Aiel,the Ashaman,Bashare and himself on one side..he would have crushed any resistance Andor could muster. I mean 4 clans of the Aiel could be forced to a draw only by all the armies fo Randland. What could Andor do against 11 clans along with the most powerful users of the OP in the Ashaman, commanded by a great general and headed by the most powerful channeler ever born? It would not even be a contest.

 

Once we have that scenario...the declarations by Elayne that "Rand cannot hand her the throne" seem weird. The throne was his if he wanted..he would have just taken it by force. So in a way he did give it to her by not taking it for himself.

[Suttree]

The bottom line and something obvious to everyone reading the series is that if Rand wanted to keep Andor for himself..he could have. With the Aiel,the Ashaman,Bashare and himself on one side..he would have crushed any resistance Andor could muster. I mean 4 clans of the Aiel could be forced to a draw only by all the armies fo Randland. What could Andor do against 11 clans along with the most powerful users of the OP in the Ashaman, commanded by a great general and headed by the most powerful channeler ever born? It would not even be a contest.

 

Once we have that scenario...the declarations by Elayne that "Rand cannot hand her the throne" seem weird. The throne was his if he wanted..he would have just taken it by force. So in a way he did give it to her by not taking it for himself.

 

Just as a point of clarification there were 170,000 troops in the Grand Alliance during the Aiel war. That is no where near "all the armies in Randland" and actually less than Andor can muster.

 

Regardless no one anywhere has said Andor would win the fight. Most importantly however your scenario was never even in the slightest bit an option. First off Rand only ever liberated Caemlyn, he had zero control over the rest of Andor. Also as has been mentioned many times it would have been an utterly phyrric victory for Rand. Why decimate the country with the largest army in Randland and one of the major powers for the light in the days leading up to TG?

[XXX]

The bottom line and something obvious to everyone reading the series is that if Rand wanted to keep Andor for himself..he could have.

With the Aiel,the Ashaman,Bashare and himself on one side..he would have crushed any resistance Andor could muster.

 

Once we have that scenario...the declarations by Elayne that "Rand cannot hand her the throne" seem weird. The throne was his if he wanted..he would have just taken it by force. So in a way he did give it to her by not taking it for himself.

 

Just as a point of clarification there were 170,000 troops in the Grand Alliance during the Aiel war. That is no where near "all the armies in Randland" and actually less than Andor can muster.

 

Regardless no one anywhere has said Andor would win the fight. Most importantly however your scenario was never even in the slightest bit an option. First off Rand only ever liberated Caemlyn, he had zero control over the rest of Andor. Also as has been mentioned many times it would have been an utterly phyrric victory for Rand. Why decimate the country with the largest army in Randland and one of the major powers for the light in the days leading up to TG?

 

Totally agree...but that he could have taken it over makes Elayne whining about how he has no right to give her the throne look foolish. It was his if he wanted it..nothing anybody could do. The fact that he did not take it for himself pretty much means that he in a way handed it over to her.

 

There is a great line in WoT from Bashere I think..where he says that all royals if you look back far enough started from a commoner.

 

Edit:- Just got me thinking about the amount of forces Rand personally commands which is staggering. 11 clans of Aiel, Ashaman, 3 Great captains, The greatest general of them all, Mat and his army plus Perrin and his rag tag army and the borderlander armies. The DO better bring it in force!!!

[Suttree]

There is a great line in WoT from Bashere I think..where he says that all royals if you look back far enough started from a commoner.

 

That was an awesome line...

[Rose]

As I said before, the question I think is not whether or not Rand could have kept the throne to himself, or whether he indeed "gave" it to her or not. My opinion is that he probably did and that's fine with me. The problem is the perception people have of it, and whether or not it lends credibility to Elayne's rule. She did not want to be seen as a puppet, which is understandable, so she was upset that Rand's actions made her look like one in the eyes of some people, and gave them grounds to rebel against her. Of course, it's not fair of her to blame Rand for that, as he meant well and didn't think about that problem. But that type of miscommunication and failure to understand each other's motivations happens so often in tWoT that I don't think this one is particularly notable. Yes, it was annoying. But hey, they got over it! Heck, they even made a baby! So maybe we should do so as well (get over it, not make a baby, in case someone was wondering *goes into hiding*)

[ElusiveAthena]

I'm a little confused as to whether people are arguing that so-and-so is a bad character - as in a one-dimensional and unbelievable character - or a person that they dislike for passionate reasons of their own. If the latter, then clearly the character is so well created and fleshed out that you start arguing their pros and cons like real people. For instance, Elayne. I don't think I'd be a particularly good friend of her's in real life, but I think she's a good character. Her relationship with Rand, however - that I cannot believe as anything more than a crush. I appreciate (and enjoy reading about) her relationship with Birgitte, Nynaeve (oh yes), Thom and Aviendha, because they are complicated and human, but with Rand? Please. Don't tell me that's love. The closest Rand comes to real love is with Min.

 

The characters I "hate" because they aren't believable are - yes Gawyn - but also Galad, Dain Bornhald (he is too revenge driven, as is Byar). I don't understand the motivations behind Sheriam being Black Ajah, but I'll let that pass, (I love Verin though). Cadsuane and Sorilea are too wrapped up in themselves - I wonder if they are meant to be indications of what Nynaeve could have turned into, if she'd continued her bullying ways.

 

Another relationship I don't believe is Moiraine and Thom. I don't know where they would have found the time to get to know eachother, much less get engaged, especially if you've read New Spring.

 

The characters I feel the most personal empathy for (partly because they are so deliciously flawed) are Nynaeve (I love how she perceives the world in such a biased way - we all do it to some extent or another, but Nynaeve is the best), and Siuan Sanche (for the same reason). I think there is a lot to admire in both characters, but I can see some of my own flaws reflected in them endearingly, and so I forgive them, and love them. I admire Egwene in the White Tower, yet I don't like her personally as a character because she is so smug about her superiority. I stop feeling empathy for Rand around CoS, but I sympathise with him, and appreciate the hard choices he has to make.

 

My favourite relationships are Perrin and Faile (who I pronounce for some reason as "faylee") - not so much for Faile's side of it but for Perrin, because I like his bemused-ness and subborn protectiveness. Lan and Nynaeve for obvious reasons, but I also like Tallanvor and Morgase simply for the moment where he kisses her closed eyelids. I don't care. It's romantic.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm a little confused as to whether people are arguing that so-and-so is a bad character - as in a one-dimensional and unbelievable character - or a person that they dislike for passionate reasons of their own. If the latter, then clearly the character is so well created and fleshed out that you start arguing their pros and cons like real people. For instance, Elayne. I don't think I'd be a particularly good friend of her's in real life, but I think she's a good character. Her relationship with Rand, however - that I cannot believe as anything more than a crush. I appreciate (and enjoy reading about) her relationship with Birgitte, Nynaeve (oh yes), Thom and Aviendha, because they are complicated and human, but with Rand? Please. Don't tell me that's love. The closest Rand comes to real love is with Min.

 

The characters I "hate" because they aren't believable are - yes Gawyn - but also Galad, Dain Bornhald (he is too revenge driven, as is Byar). I don't understand the motivations behind Sheriam being Black Ajah, but I'll let that pass, (I love Verin though). Cadsuane and Sorilea are too wrapped up in themselves - I wonder if they are meant to be indications of what Nynaeve could have turned into, if she'd continued her bullying ways.

 

Another relationship I don't believe is Moiraine and Thom. I don't know where they would have found the time to get to know eachother, much less get engaged, especially if you've read New Spring.

 

The characters I feel the most personal empathy for (partly because they are so deliciously flawed) are Nynaeve (I love how she perceives the world in such a biased way - we all do it to some extent or another, but Nynaeve is the best), and Siuan Sanche (for the same reason). I think there is a lot to admire in both characters, but I can see some of my own flaws reflected in them endearingly, and so I forgive them, and love them. I admire Egwene in the White Tower, yet I don't like her personally as a character because she is so smug about her superiority. I stop feeling empathy for Rand around CoS, but I sympathise with him, and appreciate the hard choices he has to make.

 

My favourite relationships are Perrin and Faile (who I pronounce for some reason as "faylee") - not so much for Faile's side of it but for Perrin, because I like his bemused-ness and subborn protectiveness. Lan and Nynaeve for obvious reasons, but I also like Tallanvor and Morgase simply for the moment where he kisses her closed eyelids. I don't care. It's romantic.

 

The perfect character I dislike because she is not believable is Egwene. I also don't get Sheriam's motivations.

I feel the most sympathy for Rand, Nynaeve, Siuan, Moiraine and Aviendha. I enjoy reading about Mat.

 

Agree about Elayne/Rand and Moiraine/Thom relationships. It is a shame, because I like all these characters and the relationships could be better fleshed out.

 

I have trouble with finding main characters who are imo well written but who I would dislike as a "real person". I'm indifferent to Perrin, but I don't really dislike him. Ok, maybe Gawyn.

[Mr Ares]

 

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

Actually, that is quite justifiable on her part. If it's hers, why should he be giving it to her? If he gives it to her, it undermines her. She is seen as the Dragon's puppet. Him maintaining order is a different point - he could do that without having to give her the throne. Giving her the throne is a problem that comes solely from Rand's poorly worded statements. People often conflate the two points, but her being given the throne and him maintaining order should be seen as separate. Maintaining order in the capital and its environs is a far cry from occupying the country, and therefore being in a position to hand it over to someone else.

 

I agree that Rand's statements were poorly worded. But the fact of the matter is, he was in a position to do with Andor's throne what he wanted and he decided to give it to Elayne. Even if he left and allowed her to fight for it herself, it was he who removed the most serious obstacle she would have no chance of surmounting i.e. Rahvin and his forces. The fact of the matter is, Morgase Trakand gave Andor away to one of the Forsaken and both Elayne and Gawyn were away. Rand gained control over Andor which was based on two factors:

1) his removal of the Forsaken from power over the country;

2) his absolute military advantage over any other force in Andor.

 

Elayne indignation over the matter, although coming from a noble sentiment, is in fact pretty childish in my opinion. If Rand had decided that the throne of Andor should belong to Deylin, Arymilla, Mat or Cenn Buie, Elayne would have been able to do nothing about it.

Rand's ability to do as he wished with the throne is highly dubious. The nobles and commoners both have expressed the view that they won't sit by and let Rand do as he wills. Yes, things were peaceable for a time, but had Rand tried to "give" the throne away, it would have caused a lot of fighting - and while Rand has the military resources to crush any rebellion, he also has to keep his eye on TG. Yes, Rand made it easier for her to claim the throne by removing Rahvin - his presence would have made things much harder for her, but not impossible. However, he also caused her problems. Annoyance is justified. I also think it's a little unfair to say Morgase give Andor to Rahvin - he took it from her, against her will.

 

I think it was much more likely Rand would have hardly any problems with most of Andorans had he decided to alter Andor's traditions and take the throne or give it to somebody, than that Elayne or Morgase would be able to free Andor from Rahvin's grip. Rand needed a lot of luck to do it, while Morgase and Elayne simply did not have adequate resources, both on channeling and military fronts.

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces. Not to mention the channeling. Arymilla and her sort would lick Rand's boots and as we have seen, commoners don't care which noble actually sits on the throne as much as said nobles like to think. Morgase wasn't unequivocally loved by Andorans even in EotW.

But the commoners have expressed the view that they don't want Rand. Also, Rand would have to draw on forces that would be better spent elsewhere, a guerilla campaign would be a large drain on his resources, some of the Asha'man are Andorans (and so wouldn't necessarily agree to the slaughter of their countrymen - Rand hasn't really done much to earn their loyalty). I doubt Bashere would follow him unequivocally either. So Rand has to expend his Aiel soldiers on such a pointless endeavour as crushing the forces of the Light? Yes, it would be a problem for him, but not an insurmountable one.

 

 

So Mat can hardly be praised for something which is only of dubious benefit to the Light's efforts at TG.

 

Dubious benefit? The single greatest power on the open seas is "dubious" benefit? Are you thinking in terms of tactics or anything besides a few replaceable people?

Tactics, of course - the Seanchan are the greatest naval power in the world, and starting a battle that damages Seanchan naval forces is hardly to be advised when you need these people as allies. In return, the only benefit is that it makes it slightly easier to bind the Sea Folk to Rand. That could be done anyway. As I said, dubious benefits.

 

I'm not sure why you feel the Sea Folk need to be "trained" other than to ensure their loyalty.

I'm not sure why you think damane don't need to be trained

 

I'm not sure why you think someone needs to be a damane to be skilled and useful.

I don't. I think you've lost track of the point.

 

Then that's why you don't bother with a ta'veren. Most people who deal with the Sea Folk manage just fine without one.

 

Are we talking about the same Sea Folk whose bargaining won unprecedented land concessions in Andor, and have a reputation of being traders of such surpassed skill that one cannot expect to come to advantage in a trade with one, and that even the Aes Sedai are believed to come up short against them and mocked in jokes for it?

We're talking about the Sea Folk that Elayne managed to bargain just fine with. Yes, they're experienced and tough negotiators. So what? So are a lot of people (Saldaean merchants have that reputation as well).

 

Aludra designed and built the weapons, Mat was simply the person who saw their battlefield potential. If you show those same weapons to any other general worth his salt, they'll see the benefits. Which is no different to showing them to Elayne and her seeing the benefits. Both Elayne and Mat can be easily replaced in this situation, save for the trust they have built up between themselves and Aludra. Elayne is trustowrthy and can provide facilities. Mat is trustworthy and can demonstrate their battlefield potential. Really, how are they any different?

 

The difference here is a matter of access. Aludra, by herself, little more than a commoner claiming to be from a dead guild of Illuminators, has no access to the resources Mat does. By resources, I include people. How's she going to get access to -any- of those people? You answered this, but without explanation...

The same way any other commoner would - by petitioning someone in power. Kings and nobles listen to petitions from commoners. Yes, it would take time (although her being an Illuminator could help speed things along - having access to fireworks might not be of military benefit, but in thelong term it could always be good to be the only monarch with an Illuminator).

 

Or Agelmar Jagad, Gareth Bryne, Davram Bashere, Rodel ituralde, and probably a lot of others as well (I don't think it's only Great Captains who could see the benefits of such a weapon). As long as she can show it to someone who will see the potential (and it was her good fortune to meet with Mat, a man who could most definitely see their potential, making the whole thing much easier than it might otherwise have been.

 

How many of those can she legitimately get access to in war-time?

Allof them, if she's prepared to wait long enough. Sure, being in the field makes it harder, but then I did specify that probably a lot of other commanders would be able to see the benefits and not all of them are in the field.

 

At which point her dragons become absolutely worthless in the books for anything other than revolutionizing warfare. Which isn't a small thing, but fame's not what Aludra is after. Nor is the TG, but her bargain with Mat gives her something to her own ends. What other leader is guaranteed to negotiate in good faith with her, even if she could get access to them? Yeah, sorry little sparkler girl, we have other priorities than helping you with your Seanchan problem. But we'll take your world-breaking weapons anyway! Maybe later...

Well, you still need her expertise to manufacture gunpowder to use the bloody weapons. And unless there is some sort of long term accord with the Seanchan, having a weapon to use against them is an attractive possibility (and there is always the possibility of using them against other enemies).

 

Note, though, that while Mat makes things easier he does not make them possible.

 

Being ta'veren doesn't make things "easier" by any stretch of the imagination. That purpose of it is to make acquiring that which he needs possible. A somewhat general need, but the dragons are included in that.

Ta'veren affects chance - it makes the improbable probable, not the impossible possible.

 

 

It's a shame that's not what I was doing, else you might have had a point. As it is, I was simply pointing out that Elayne's achievements (or lack of) over a given period are in line with the achievements (or lack of) or most other major characters over the same period. There is a lot of time over those books spent laying the groundwork for what is to come, and that is not unimportant. Why single out Elayne?

 

I'm not singling out Elayne for anything; that is solely your need to defend her talking. I'm simply establishing hierarchy, and you perceive being placed lower in a hierarchy as "being singled out" or an attack on Elayne, then that is a problem with your perception. I've already established that Mat's role in this isn't worth anywhere near as much as Aludra's either. If you disagree with my arguments on why his role is slightly greater than Elayne's, then feel free to do so, but don't expect that aggrieved complaint that I'm "singling Elayne" out when I am doing NO such thing to get you any purchase on the argument.

This doesn't actually relate to the initial point you were responding to.

 

The characters I "hate" because they aren't believable are - yes Gawyn - but also Galad, Dain Bornhald (he is too revenge driven, as is Byar). I don't understand the motivations behind Sheriam being Black Ajah, but I'll let that pass, (I love Verin though). Cadsuane and Sorilea are too wrapped up in themselves - I wonder if they are meant to be indications of what Nynaeve could have turned into, if she'd continued her bullying ways.

Nynaeve could only become like Cadsuane and Sorilea if she abandoned her bullying. After all, she had to bully people in order to get them to listen, while Cadsuane doesn't bully people, for the most part - she treats them as they deserve, giving respect where it is due. Look at her varied attitudes to Verin, Samitsu, Daigian, Sorilea, and Harine. I don't see why Byar and Borhald are too revenge driven, but then I can't speak to the quality of the fanatics you know. I don't see what's hard to understand about Sheriam's motivations - she joined because it represented a chance at personal advancement, not because she was a true believer. She probably didn't expect TG to come up.