A new mystery to solve...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Being dismissive doesn't mean being ignorant.

 

Logain was a far more famous and successful false Dragon than Taim. Unless Taim is an utter fool, he won't make the mistake of ignoring Logain.

 

Being dismissive is just Taim's way to try not to be intimidated. Logain had been captured, taken to the White Tower in a cage, and gentled. Yet, here he is big as life and twice as ugly - and he can channel at least as strongly as Taim can. Not only that, but he's invented something entirely new - a way to bond Aes Sedai. Pretty impressive stuff.

 

That's gotta make at least a small dent in even Taim's self-image. He probably sent Logain off mostly so he wouldn't have to be reminded on a daily basis that Logain still exists.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's the prologue to CoT, the timeline is all over the place even though it's only a few scenes.

 

Not necessarily. It's merely convenient and comfortable to choose to believe that the timeline is all over the place.

 

In case it's escaped your notice, the one thing we're never supposed to be is comfortable. Jordan wants us as uncomfortable and on edge about everyone and everything in this series as the characters are.

 

We can't even be sure that characters we saw die are really dead.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're making unwarranted assumptions about the timeline again Bob.

 

The scenes are presented in order in the prologue for a reason. The order that makes MUCH more sense is this:

 

Day 1 - morning: Logain gets clearance to go recruiting. He immediately sets off for parts unknown. He's waiting for no one at the Tower.

 

Day 1 - later in the day: Some unknown man (probably on of Logain's followers) approaches Bashere with a proposal. He leaves a location at which he can be contacted if Bashere decides to accept, implying he's prepared to wait for some period of time.

 

Day 2 - early afternoon: Bashere discovers his tent has been ransacked. He then - and only then - decides to accept whatever was proposed the day before. Logain (or his representative) is still waiting in the relatively close vicinity.

 

Day 2 - very late: Bashere and Logain meet and Travel to the outskirts of Cairhien.

 

Day 3 - early morning: Logain and co. ride into the Palace at Cairhien.

 

You've made much of the descriptions of the time of day, but nothing says that the morning on which Logain got his permission to leave is the SAME day that Bashere's tent gets ransacked. Indeed, the order in which they are presented in the prologue suggests the very order of occurence I've outlined.

 

I agree about Taim's seeming dismissiveness being a front though. He knows that Logain is his only signifigant opponent in the Black Tower. He's more likely to actually dismiss Rand than Logain. But his hidden suspicion does not make him omniscient. Logain could manage to keep a meeting with Bashere secret.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sure. The order of events could be as you suggest. In fact it has to be the way you suggest in order for your theory to hold even a thimbleful of water.

 

The problem, for me, is that nothing in the text says these things happened on different days. That's merely an assumption you're making so that your theory will work. Convenient. Comfortable. But, an assumption on your part, nonetheless.

 

I see the prologue as a succession of events that happen in the same day.

 

Remember that the main body of "Crossroads of Twilight" is a jumble of events that all happen in a single day. The most logical assumption that we can therefore make, is that the Prologue is also a jumble of events that also happened in a single day sometime before the main book starts.

 

Way too much temporal dissonance within a single volume otherwise.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The problem, for me, is that nothing in the text says these things happened on different days. That's merely an assumption you're making so that your theory will work. Convenient. Comfortable. But, an assumption on your part, nonetheless.

 

I see the prologue as a succession of events that happen in the same day.

 

Nothing says they happened on the same day either! That is equally an assumption on your part, made for the exclusive purpose of supporting your theory. The thing is, the things we do know from the text support the rest of my theory too. After the prologue, they arrive at the next place we see them together.

 

Remember that the main body of "Crossroads of Twilight" is a jumble of events that all happen in a single day. The most logical assumption that we can therefore make, is that the Prologue is also a jumble of events that also happened in a single day sometime before the main book starts.

 

There is, literally, no logical reason to make that assumption. Just because the rest of the book is like that, there is no reason to assume that the prolgue is the same, since there are no textual clues on which to base that assumption.

 

Way too much temporal dissonance within a single volume otherwise.

 

One extra day? I would say, rather, that the series of unlikely events necessary to introduce a mysterious stranger who serves no other purpose into the mix is a much more serious (not to mention unnecessary) "dissonance".

 

No, Bob, the fact is, you cannot show any evidence from either the book or logic that shows any problem with the events in the timeline as I have proposed it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The first person we meet in the Prologue is Ituralde: "...the sun stood halfway to its peak..."

 

Then we move on to Eamon Valda: "...scudding gray clouds hid the noonday sun..."

 

Then Gabrelle: "...the morning air was crisp..."

 

Then Yukiri: "...the morning was still dim, first light darkened by the snow falling heavily on Tar Valon..."

 

Then Gawyn: "...The barn's thick walls normally kept out the worst of the night's chill..."

 

Then Bashere: "The sky above Caemlyn was clear, the sun a pale golden ball near its noonday peak."

 

Then Samitsu: "The light feathery snow falling on the city of Cairhien dimmed the morning sunlight only a little..."

 

Ultimately, whether those are all snippets from the same day or a number of different days really doesn't matter, because of how the Prologue ends -

 

Samitsu's passage ends thusly: ... "A party of sisters has entered the city, Samitsu. I rode like a madwoman to get here ahead of them, but they could be riding in this moment. There are Asha'man with them, and one of the Asha'man is Logain!"

 

This is just after the attack on Dobraine. Samitsu is still in the anteroom to his chambers after healing him.

 

There is no mention of Bashere, nor 100 Saldaean Light Cavalry. While Logain would be the main sensation, Rosara Medrano wouldn't fail to report the presence of Bashere, since she would know that the rest of her report would make Samitsu ready to chew nails... or the hind parts of any sister who gave her cause to be displeased. Therefore, Bashere wasn't with Logain when he arrived in Cairhien.

 

Whatever agreement they reached to travel to Rand together was only made after Bashere arrived in Cairhien independently.

 

Therefore, the man who came to Bashere outside Caemlyn wasn't Logain. The proposal that Bashere agreed to had nothing to do with finding Rand.

 

Whatever that meeting and that agreement are about is yet to be revealed.

[KaptainKaos]

So, you are sending the message out there do not assume only relate the facts. Yet you are assuming that since Bashere wasn't mentioned he wasn't present. There are many places Bashere could have been at the time while still playing the role almost everyone else in the world has given him except you. The point is Bob go to any Wheel of Time related resource and it will reference Logain and Bashere having an agreement.

 

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ Crossroads of Twilight Prologue Glimmers of the Pattern:

"Bashere tells Tumad to find the man who came to him yesterday and tell him that Bashere agrees.

(further down the explanation: Bashere is agreeing to help Logain find Rand. This will also delay an awkward confrontation with Queen Tenobia.)(CoT,Ch24)"

 

From Tellings of the Wheel The Wheel of Time Timeline:

"702 Saban-8 (Feb-23) COT:Pro Out riding near the Black Tower with Toveine and Gabrelle, Logain encounters Mishraile, a Taim supporter, who gives him Taim's permission to go on a "recruiting trip."

710 Saban-16 (Mar-02) COT:Pro In his camp outside Caemlyn, Davram Bashere is contacted by Logain.

724 Aine-2 (Mar-16) KoD: At the manor estate in Tear near the Spine of the World where Rand is staying, the Warders of the Dragonsworn sisters arrive from Cairhien, along with Bashere, Logain, and Loial. Rand confronts Logain and forbids the bonding of any more sisters. Bashere tells Rand of the hunt for the Seals. Rand decides to seek a truce with the Seanchan."

 

Besides these sources that are generally considered reliable for most information both agree that Logain was the 'mystery' man that Bashere refers to and more than strongly suggests this should be obvious due the events that followed those in the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight. Come on Bob, its so simple Bashere makes a 'mystery' agreement with someone that he doesn't sound to keen to have an agreement with and the very next time he is seen with any significance is in the company of a once gentled now channeling false Dragon with several Asha'man, how much more obvious does Robert Jordan have to make it. Not only that but whatever timeline you are trying to concoct to fit your statements is null and void because the above timeline has the correct times listed and clearly they match the way almost everyone including those who took the time to make these sites envisioned this to go it looks like you are just a step behind so come on brother catch up and lets move on.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jordan has also said quite clearly that 2/3's of the stuff on the web is wrong. Half of that ridiculously wrong.

 

If you choose to accept the well intentioned musings of some web site author as truth, that is your choice.

 

When I read the words Jordan wrote - and those words flatly contradict the web site - then I have to go with Jordan.

 

This is what Jordan wrote:

"A party of sisters has entered the city, Samitsu. I rode like a madwoman to get here ahead of them, but they could be riding in this moment. There are Asha'man with them, and one of the Asha'man is Logain!"

 

Karldin barked a rough laugh, and suddenly Samitsu wondered whether she was going to live long enough for Cadsuane to have her hide.

 

Thus endeth the Prologue. Does the report mention Bashere? Who would be more likely to get a sympathetic hearing from the sisters in Cairhien, Bashere, or Logain, his Asha'man, and a bunch of bonded sisters? Would both men realize this? So, who would be first to appear, Bashere or Logain?

 

Since it is Logain who appears first, it is because he and his group are the only ones there as yet. Bashere did not travel with them. Bashere is making his own way to Cairhien. The agreement did not involve Logain.

 

It's all right there in the book, despite whatever theory some website might have published as "fact".

 

Those same websites will tell you that the attacks on Dobraine and Bashere's tent happened near simultaneously. If that is true, then Logain is arriving in Cairhien at about the time we first see Bashere outside of Caemlyn.

 

Point being that both versions can't be true. If the attacks are simultaneous, and Logain arrives just after they happen, he can't be anywhere near Caemlyn for Bashere to contact. If he's still near Caemlyn when Bashere sends Tumad off to make contact, then he can't arrive in Cairhien immediately after the attack on Dobraine.

[Cybertrolloc]

Jordan has also said quite clearly that 2/3's of the stuff on the web is wrong. Half of that ridiculously wrong.

So you have a 1/3 chance of being right? ;)

[KaptainKaos]

Funny, but Bob is actually implying that I have a 1/3 plus chance of being right since I cited the stuff from the web although I previously knew Jordan's comments on Web Site content and I knew this weapon would be brought to bear especially when discussing with Bob watching the posts I just figured information from two completely different sites that still said the same thing would jiggle some screws loose but Bob seems to think that one quote showing Logain arriving in Cairhien proves that Bashere couldn't have been traveling with him even though it would make much more sense for Bashere to not publicly be seen with Logain. Come on Bob Bashere could have been anywhere, maybe Logain left behind an Asha'man while Bashere got his 100 men around or maybe Bashere thought it better to wait with his men in a camp outside the city. You can't expect to convince anyone with one quote like that when you won't be convinced by several that actually mention both parties involved.

 

By the way I fail to see where this quote that is cited by Bob:

"A party of sisters has entered the city, Samitsu. I rode like a madwoman to get here ahead of them, but they could be riding in this moment. There are Asha'man with them, and one of the Asha'man is Logain!

Karldin barked a rough laugh, and suddenly Samitsu wondered whether she was going to live long enough for Cadsuane to have her hide."

 

has anything to do with where exactly Bashere is besides telling us that he didn't come into the city of Cairhien with Logain. It doesn't say anything about Bashere unless you are confusing Karldin with Bashere, no he is the Asha'man sent with Loial to set guards on the Waygates so any other statements you may have about Bashere's whereabouts are complete assumptions which you preach so fervently against and yet we continue to read them in your posts.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not convinced by any quote from a website that didn't originate with Robert Jordan.

 

The bulk of the stuff on websites is nothing more than a compendium of prevailing theories. Websites also get ideas from each other. It's a lot easier than researching the topic yourself. Putting together a complete website is more than enough work by itself, so websites cribbing each other's material isn't the least bit surprising. Serious scholars do it all the time, so why should a website be more thorough than academia.

 

The Prologue clearly contradicts the conclusions posted on the web. Logain clearly arrived without Bashere. He also clearly arrived before Bashere decided to accept whatever had been proposed on the previous day. Logain is not the mystery man.

[KaptainKaos]

Once again your version of 'clearly' is an assumption, unless if by some unknown Bob T Dwarf rule system Bashere could only have been in Cairhien if he was within 100 feet of Logain and with what I have seen of your mind could very well be the case.

[Cybertrolloc]

"702 Saban-8 (Feb-23) COT:Pro Out riding near the Black Tower with Toveine and Gabrelle' date=' Logain encounters Mishraile, a Taim supporter, who gives him Taim's permission to go on a "recruiting trip."

710 Saban-16 (Mar-02) COT:Pro In his camp outside Caemlyn, Davram Bashere is contacted by Logain.

724 Aine-2 (Mar-16) KoD: At the manor estate in Tear near the Spine of the World where Rand is staying, the Warders of the Dragonsworn sisters arrive from Cairhien, along with Bashere, Logain, and Loial. Rand confronts Logain and forbids the bonding of any more sisters. Bashere tells Rand of the hunt for the Seals. Rand decides to seek a truce with the Seanchan."[/quote']

Hadn't noticed that it was 8 days on the other chronology too. Logain could go anywhere in the world at the time, level 10 cities that don't have channelers...what else could he have done?

 

We can place the Wolf's segments through reports of what he does elsewhere and how long it takes him to get from place to place (no Traveling). We know that Logain left at least after an Elayne visit to the Black Tower and some other events he knows about...but 9 days between his leaving the tower and showing up in Carhein (and he did arrive in Carhein before the Cleansing)?

 

Bob--the Aes Sedai not mentioning Bashere or a legion of soldiers isn't a big deal: Logain, especially in company of other Aes Sedai is huge from her point of view.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, it is.

 

But so would Bashere and 100 Saldaean's be. That's a lot of horses to stable and mouths to feed. That many additional people, all showing up together makes for huge complications even if none of them were Logain.

 

Samitsu is nominally in charge of things in Cairhien. She needs to know ALL of the facts. Leaving out that many additional people also arriving at this time would not be wise under the circumstances. Rosara Medrano is Aes Sedai. She'd know better than to step in it that thoroughly.

 

If Bashere and Logain were traveling together at that point, Bashere would have been the first to arrive, so as to smooth over all the furor Logain's arrival would engender. Logain showing up unannounced tells us that Bashere wasn't there.

 

Believe what you like. All I'm saying is that what Jordan wrote does not support the assumptions upon which you base your belief. The circumstances of Logain's arrival don't fit those assumptions. Nothing but pure wishful thinking puts Logain and Bashere in company when the Prologue ends.

[KaptainKaos]

Quote from Bob T Dwarf: "If Bashere and Logain were traveling together at that point, Bashere would have been the first to arrive, so as to smooth over all the furor Logain's arrival would engender. Logain showing up unannounced tells us that Bashere wasn't there."

 

I'm still confused how you can make these types of statements which are assumptions, use them as facts, and then persecute anyone else that tries to use assumptions all the while expecting people to agree with your thought process. Why would they need or want Bashere to smooth anything over when Aes Sedai are involved? Bashere has not proven to have any authority over the dealings of Aes Sedai and Warders, Asha'man are blatantly showing their authority by having the Aes Sedai with them in their custody. Why does Logain showing up unannounced lend any weight to your arguement that Bashere isn't with him? Because if Bashere were there he would have sent a scout to the city to announce himself after coming through the gateways with Logain had he been there, why would he have done that?

 

Believe it or not Bob your arguments are not fact especially when the way you are rationalizing your statements makes no sense when you compare to the events that are actually happening, come on Bob you started out your statement "If Logain and Bashere were traveling together..." that sets up everything you said after as an assumption and one that makes no sense at that, seriously Davram Bashere going ahead and trying to explain to the Aes Sedai in Cairhien that Logain was coming channeling able with other Asha'man not to mention bonded Aes Sedai against their will all the while trying to, what did you say, oh yeah "smooth over all the furor." I really am sorry that you aren't used to admitting you are wrong but come on...

[Bob T Dwarf]

How does having Logain go in first make more sense?

 

All that will do is to kick over an anthill. Which is exactly what Samitsu's reaction tells us is going to happen. Why do that when Bashere could go in first and at least lay a little groundwork?

 

Logain showing up unannounced has the potential for things to get really nasty. Bashere is known to everyone in Cairhien. He's established as one of Rand's primary advisors. If he shows up and says, "Logain Ablar and some Asha'man and Aes Sedai will be arriving shortly. They're with me." He damps down all the furor and lessens the potential for drastic misunderstanding.

 

The AS already in Caihien aint gonna like it, but they aren't going to go off half-cocked either.

[Cybertrolloc]

Because the Aes Sedai saw them approaching?

 

Think about your other statement about Bashere plus army should cause a furor to Aes Sedai: what about the other armies that were in Carhein that they didn't bat an eyelash at like the Tairen or Aiel? Also don't forget dramatic necessity.

 

You're really all over the place on your picture of what actually is in the books and what you think it means...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Where did I say that Bashere plus his armsmen would cause a furor?

 

I said Logain would cause the furor.

 

Bashere was known. He was trusted. His arrival would not cause any uproar. That makes him the logical one to go in first - if he had been there.

 

Both he and Logain would realize that. Therefore, if he had been there he would have gone in first, not Logain. Since Logain and his party of Asha'man and Aes Sedai went first, they were the only ones there. Bashere had not even learned about his tent being ransacked yet.

[Cybertrolloc]

Like 2 posts back...a few hours ago :x :x

[Bob T Dwarf]

What I wrote two posts back was this:

If Bashere and Logain were traveling together at that point, Bashere would have been the first to arrive, so as to smooth over all the furor Logain's arrival would engender. Logain showing up unannounced tells us that Bashere wasn't there.

 

Which is what I repeated above. Bashere would go first so as to minimize the chance for a shooting incident when Logain rode up.

 

If you read the books as sloppily as you read posts, no wonder you don't really have any idea what is going on.

[KaptainKaos]

I really don't understand how your thought process is coming to these conclusions Bob but we know from the actual reaction to Logain and the Aes Sedai showing up in Cairhien that nothing happened and the desired effect of Logain with several Aes Sedai seemingly under his command obviously worked because they got the help of the Warders and found Rand. So, I really don't see how you could say that if Bashere was there he would have went in and explained everything to the Aes Sedai so they wouldn't get too upset because he obviously didn't have to do that because Logain's display actually did work without Bashere showing himself because they both found Rand after that.

 

Everyone else on the planet has had the sense to see that Logain has to be the mystery man Bashere was referring to because of the events that have happened since and I can see that you are just on another one of your this is another mistake by the author that you seem to despise so much but yet you read and analyze his work kicks and you aren't going to get off of your hobby horse now.

 

Heck if in the last book we found out that it was someone else besides Logain you would probably be upset because then you wouldn't have any perceived 'holes' in the timeline to whine about. This discussion isn't even worthy of my time anymore I've tried using actual text that relates to both Logain and Bashere plus I have used the logic that the effect Logain had without Bashere worked because Bashere wasn't needed in Cairhien as we see the plan that Logain and Bashere actually used ended them both up right where they wanted to be, meeting Rand. Not to mention almost everyone else that was arguing against you has already had the sense to stop watching this topic or just not post anymore and I'm just going to join the bandwagon...

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Bob T Dwarf, for the sake of argument, who do you believe the mystery man is, if it isn't Logain? I have to say that I do believe it's Logain (instead of a prologue that leaps around in time, a linear progression of time that spans a couple of days seems to make more sense, but perhaps I'm wrong) and just applying Occam's razor makes sense here: if Bashere was meant to meet a mystery man, and the next time we meet him is with Logain, a person we would not think he would have ended up with, chances are that he (Logain) is the mystery man.

 

Sorry if this has been brought up before, I didn't read through the seven pages with extreme care.

[KaptainKaos]

Yeah, someone already thought up that line of thinking to get something logical out of Bob. He said something like he doesn't know who the mystery man could have been he was just posting to see if anyone else might have caught something he missed and thought it was someone besides Logain.

 

And about this quote here:

"just applying Occam's razor makes sense here: if Bashere was meant to meet a mystery man, and the next time we meet him is with Logain, a person we would not think he would have ended up with, chances are that he (Logain) is the mystery man."

 

This is good and it does make sense to most people but reading through Bob's and mine previous posts shows that he definitely doesn't agree with this line of thought mostly because his has to involve bashing the author in some way, shape, or form.

[Cybertrolloc]

Ultimately' date=' whether those are all snippets from the same day or a number of different days really doesn't matter, because of how the Prologue ends -

 

Samitsu's passage ends thusly: [i']... "A party of sisters has entered the city, Samitsu. I rode like a madwoman to get here ahead of them, but they could be riding in this moment. There are Asha'man with them, and one of the Asha'man is Logain!"[/i]

 

This is just after the attack on Dobraine. Samitsu is still in the anteroom to his chambers after healing him.

 

There is no mention of Bashere, nor 100 Saldaean Light Cavalry. While Logain would be the main sensation, Rosara Medrano wouldn't fail to report the presence of Bashere, since she would know that the rest of her report would make Samitsu ready to chew nails... or the hind parts of any sister who gave her cause to be displeased. Therefore, Bashere wasn't with Logain when he arrived in Cairhien.

 

Whatever agreement they reached to travel to Rand together was only made after Bashere arrived in Cairhien independently.

 

Therefore, the man who came to Bashere outside Caemlyn wasn't Logain. The proposal that Bashere agreed to had nothing to do with finding Rand.

 

Whatever that meeting and that agreement are about is yet to be revealed.

[Ishydin]

as for the issue of "logain not being able to contact bashere", it actually seems pretty plausible, even if taim has him under tight surveillance. The failed recruits still have to be brought to bashere to join the LoD, and that seems like the kind of bitchwork that taim might relegate someone in logain's camp, or at the very least something he wouldn't want his favorites wasting their time on, so it's probably relatively easy for one of logain's men to get close to bashere regularly without raising suspicion.