Moiraine and the First Oath

[LeeM.Erickson]

So in TGH, when Siuan and Moiraine reveal to Rand that he's the Dragon Reborn, Rand lists the names of the false Dragons that Ba'alzamon told him about in his dreams. Siuan demands to know where he heard those names, and Moiraine tells him he got them from Thom, who is dead.

 

Now, there's two things about this that seem almost violations of the First Oath. One, Ba'alzamon told him the names, not Thom. This can be explained away as an Aes Sedai answer, though, since Rand didn't know what the names meant, it was Thom who told him they were false Dragons. We know that Moiraine was keeping the return of the Forsaken from Siuan, so it would make sense for her to imply that Thom told him, when really Thom just clarified the information. But immediately afterwards Moiraine states that Thom is dead. We know flat out from Eye of the World that she doesn't believe he is, since she said per Min's viewings his part of the Pattern wasn't over. I suppose you could argue that it's not a lie since he's believed to be dead by others, but I thought this was the exact type of situation that comes up in the First Oath that is inherent on the belief of the speaker. You can't tell a conscious lie, but you can say things that aren't true if you believe that they are. For instance, an Aes Sedai isn't breaking the First Oath when she says that the ageless look comes from long usage of the One Power, even though that isn't true. She can say it because she believes it's true. So if Moiraine believes Thom is alive, I don't think any logic twisting or mental gymnastics would allow her to flat-out say Thom is dead when she doesn't believe it.

 

Now, I'm not trying to imply Moiraine is a Black sister or even that she somehow managed to remove the First Oath from herself, but I found this weird. Maybe it's just a mistake? What do you, the viewers at home, think?

[mb]

Actually, Rand answers; not Moiraine.

Just went through the scene.

[LemonPastie]

Isn't it Rand who says "an old friend told me, Thom Merrilin, but he is dead now" and then Moiraine chokes up and Rand thinks to himself that he is dead despite what she thinks?

 

hold on

 

"Where did you get those names?" the Amyrlin demanded. "Who told you Tar Valon pulls the lines on any false dragon?"

"A friend, Mother," he said. "A gleeman. His name was Thom Merrilin. He's dead, now." Moiraine made a sound, and he glanced at her. She claimed Thom was not dead, but she had never offered any proof, and he could not see how and man could survive grappling hand to hand with a Fade.

 

From tGH chpt 8

[LeeM.Erickson]

Well, that makes much more sense then :p

[Alric]

Another questionable instance of Moiraine and the oaths is this one, that I asked in another thread:

 

Does anyone know how Moiraine was able to slap Rand with the Power in Rhuidean? It was her or Egwene. Egwene said it wasn't her, so if she didn't lie, it had to be Moiraine. It might be that the oath doesn't count minor violence but I was still surprised by that.

 

 

[michael.clinton83]

Another questionable instance of Moiraine and the oaths is this one, that I asked in another thread:

 

Does anyone know how Moiraine was able to slap Rand with the Power in Rhuidean? It was her or Egwene. Egwene said it wasn't her, so if she didn't lie, it had to be Moiraine. It might be that the oath doesn't count minor violence but I was still surprised by that.

 

I wouldn't consider that using it as a weapon. Novices are punished aka 'switched' with weaves of the power all the time. Also, much like the discussion above, it all comes from the believe of the channeler. If Moiraine didn't think it was a weapon, then she can do it.

[Alric]

Fair enough, I did suspect it was a red herring the way RJ made Rand wonder about it.

[Jon Paul]

Aes Sedai slipperiness. They do use it as a weapon. To either punish with a switch or to intimidate people etc. That's one of the things I would do if I landed in the world of the Wheel of Time. I'd go up to an Aes Sedai and start disrespecting them. When they started to try and intimidate me, even by reminding me of the fact that they can hold the One Power, I'd just point out that they are using the Power to mentally assault me and bully me. And watch them splutter .

[Alric]

Don't pick one that would assault you physically, like Nynaeve or Siuan

[Jon Paul]

Don't pick one that would assault you physically, like Nynaeve or Siuan

 

That's just common sense .

[Mandro]

I can pick apart the 3 oaths in less time it takes me to savor a BLT. The flaws are as countless as those that exist in the history of the white tower. If there is a postscript allowed to be written, I bet the FIRST plot point is the philisophical destruction of the 3 oaths, if it doesn't happen in the final book. Asmodean presaged it in the 4th book.

 

I used to be a bit of a gamer, back when I was a "wiz" on a MUD, and I said, "I can't code for crap, but I know how to break stuff, and I will break your rules, USING your rules." That sorta thing is commonplace, and the AS think it gives them cover, it doesn't, it gives the patina of dignity, rather than actually living by it.

 

That's why Tam, and Elias, and even Lan, people who don't have the power, distrust them so much.

 

True story, I used to write resume's for a small supplemental income. When I was done, I told the people I did it for, "A resume is the most deceitful document that you will ever support that is not a lie."

 

I knew that when I was quite young. I don't think the AS are confusing anyone.