Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[Guest Egwene]

:shock: I have just made my way through this entire thread... can't I leave you guys alone for five minutes without you tearing at each others throats?! *indulges in using double punctuation like some teenager *

 

Ok, totally on topic. I vividly remember reading tFoH for the first time as it wasn't that many years ago. My immidiate thought was 'Lanfear'. Which would fit in with any scientific experiment that will tell you that people often pick out an option that has in some way come to their attention in the period leading up to making a choice.

 

When first joined the online discussions, I was amazed to find that people discussed at all, lol. Over the course of those initial discussions, I changed from suspecting Lanfear to Moiraine. First it was to play Devil's advocat, however, in the course of doing so, it just became so easy to picture the scene with Moiraine in it that I have stuck with it ever since.

 

I became a bit tempted by the Graendal theories, mostly due to Grandal's Fav making some good points... but it only made me come back to Moiraine with more conviction. Though Lanfear is still my second favourite suspect and if I had to bet my life on who did it... I am not sure which of the two I would finally put my money on.

 

Alas, I am unlikely to have much time in the next few weeks to participate much in debating... hope you all have a great time... I'll catch up again sometime :D

[Cybertrolloc]

But all of Sammael's actions were in response to Rand's actions. Sammael planned the Shadar Logoth traps because he knew Rand was going to come for him. He went to Shadar Logoth that day because Rand DID come for him. He was standing in that plaza because he was waiting to kill Rand. And he didn't notice Mashadar tumbling down on him' date=' because he was concentrating on Rand. The entire sequence of events initiated with Rand, and Sammael's responses to Rand put him in the situation where he got killed. By Mashadar, yes.

 

We're not disputing the sequence of events, we're disputing the meaning of the word "responsible"...[/quote']

Don't forget Moridin's part in this. Sure it could have been some Taaveran stuff too, but without Moridin to bail out Rand and hint at how Sammael was likely to set things up...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's try a little story to see if we can make this clear.

 

Your Mom is flying into town for a visit today. You promised to pick her up at the airport.

 

Your wife calls you at work to remind you about it. It's been a busy day, and while you didn't forget that Mom was coming, you did lose track of the time. When your wife calls, you realize two things:

1. Mom doesn't like to be kept waiting.

2. You should have left for the airport 15 minutes ago in order to be there when she gets off the plane.

 

As a result, you are so intent on making up the lost time that you fail to notice that the traffic light ahead is red. You run it and are broadsided by a semi and killed.

 

Now, who is responsible for your death?

 

The semi driver?

Your wife?

Your Mother?

You?

 

If you're merely looking for a scapegoat, a case could be made for any of the first three.

 

The semi driver could have left his terminal either earlier or later than he did, in which case he wouldn't have been crossing that intersection at the same time you were.

 

Your wife could have called to remind you 15 minutes earlier than she did, in which case you wouldn't have been speeding and wouldn't have run the light.

 

Your Mom could have chosen a different day and time for her arrival, in which case the collision wouldn't have happened

 

A case could even be made for your boss. If she hadn't been working you so hard, you wouldn't have lost track of the time and would have left for the airport on time.

 

BUT, all of those are merely instances of trying to find a scapegoat for your own fatal lack of attention to detail. It was your responsibility to keep track of the time. It was your responsibility to drive safely.

 

Ultimately, we are each responsible for our own actions.

 

Likewise, there is no scapegoat for Sammael's death. He died as result of his own fatal lack of attention to detail.

[Jonn]

As usual, you completely missed the point. Of COURSE Rand didn't plan this out. I ALREADY SAID THAT. Going to Shadar Logoth was Sammael's plan. He had laid multiple traps there, for the purpose of killing Rand. No one is disputing this. I'm not, have not been, and will not ever say that Sammael's death was caused by some brilliant plan executed by Rand al'Thor. As usual, the Dragon got lucky.

 

Rand didn't plan the specific conditions of Sammael's death. There's the point. He was simply one part of those conditions. You get it?

 

What I am saying is that if Rand al'Thor doesn't attack Illian, Sammael doesn't get munched by Mashadar. Therefore, the sequence of events leading to Sammael's death was initiated by Rand al'Thor. It didn't go down the way Rand planned. But all of Sammael's actions were in response to Rand's actions. Sammael planned the Shadar Logoth traps because he knew Rand was going to come for him. He went to Shadar Logoth that day because Rand DID come for him. He was standing in that plaza because he was waiting to kill Rand. And he didn't notice Mashadar tumbling down on him, because he was concentrating on Rand. The entire sequence of events initiated with Rand, and Sammael's responses to Rand put him in the situation where he got killed. By Mashadar, yes.

 

We're not disputing the sequence of events, we're disputing the meaning of the word "responsible". I say Rand is responsible for Sammael's death because Rand attacked Illian, an action that ultimately (not directly) caused the death of Sammael. You say Mashadar is responsible, because Mashadar is the force/entity/syrupy mist that actual got to turn Sammael into "toast". Both statements are true, depending on how you define the word "responsible".

 

So then you can put Rand up as responsible for Be'lal's death then?

 

If Rand doesn't storm the Stone of Tear, Moiraine wouldn't get a shot at Be'lal. So, Moiraine didn't kill Be'lal? :roll:

 

It's simple, Rand didn't fire the actual bullet that killed him. He meant to kill Be'lal quite assuredly, he did. But he didn't. Moiraine did.

 

On the other hand he did mean to kill Rahvin. He actually killed Rahvin, but according to your logic, Nynaeve and Moghedien killed Rahvin. If they hadn't distracted Rahvin, then Rand would never have hit Rahvin with balefire. :shock:

 

Look...he meant to kill Sammael, really and truly, but Mashadar ended up killing Sammael. That's the simple truth of it.

 

Does Rand have some responsibility? Of course.

You've quite stubbornly latched onto this idea that partial responsibility translates to the actual act of killing someone. Technically, if I hire someone to kill another person, yes, I am responsible for that person's death. My direct intention was to have that person killed by another. This is not the same case for Sammael's death. Rand did no planning to have anyone other than himself at the end of the smoking gun.

 

If a person has been trying to kill me and we end up fighting on a ledge and a bird flies over the guy's head scaring him, and he falls off. Not only is my part in his death self defense, It's debateable whether or not I'm responsible at all. The fact is the other guy chose this ground to fight on and was endangering my life as well. If some other factor inherent to the ground takes his life, I'm looking at a lowered charge here at worst.

 

Now ... who cares? Either way he's toast and not coming back.

 

Quite typical of you, you've made a big argument about your point and then declared the topic not worth discussing. It's not a very original trick, and no one falls for it either.

 

Question:

 

WHAT actually killed Sammael?

 

The answer is Mashadar.

 

Nothing specific that Rand did killed Sammael. Not going to Illian. It doesn't matter because Sammael meant to take the fight to Shadar Logoth anyway. Rand attacking Illian was a given and moot. Sammael want it to happen.

 

If Rand wants to claim he killed Sammael, he may. He did do the bulk of the fighting against him that day. He never actually killed the man personally though. He tried, and Sammael was ultimately killed, but Rand was definitely not the one to strike the killing blow. That makes a big difference.

[Cybertrolloc]

Actually the same person killed Sammael as killed Asmodean. Semantics are stupid, aren't they?

[Jonn]

Actually the same person killed Sammael as killed Asmodean. Semantics are stupid, aren't they?

 

It depends on the person who is using them.

[Narg]

lets go way way back now.

 

al long time ago in a thread far far away i made a tally of who killed hoe many forsaken counting asmos as a mysterios stranger and sayin mashdar killed sammy.

 

MASHDAR TOOK SAMMYS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM. rand did't, sammy didnt commit suicide. mashdar killed him. whos fault it is could be argued forever because life is a wheel with many threads. you cannot blame an action on one specific other action. it is sammys fault he died answell as rands and mashdars and you could even say liah also had an immediate fault in his death. but you could go way back to the age of legends and say its lews therins fault even.

 

what im trying to say is that if someone is acurate in what they say they are right, pretty much all of you are right in this.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So then you can put Rand up as responsible for Be'lal's death then?

 

Actually, yes, in much the same way. Rand's actions forced Moiraine's hand, and put her in a situation where she could kill Be'lal. If Be'lal had not been concentrating on drawing Rand into his trap, Moiraine couldn not have gotten close enough to balefire him. Are you saying that Moiraine was going to attack Be'lal regardless of what Rand did? Or are you saying that Moiraine could have taken Be'lal straight up one on one, with Be'lal undistracted? She certainly didn't think that was the case.

 

Rand's role in both deaths cannot be ignored. The responsibility is less his in the case of Be'lal, because there is another intelligent, self-cognizant actor directly and intentionally involved, but his role is crucial.

 

The same applies to Rand and Mashadar. Unless you're claiming that Mashadar set the whole thing up intentionally, tricking Rand into assaulting Illian as part of a scheme to draw Sammael to it? That is, of course, ridiculous, and you know it. You are acting like I am ignoring Mashadar. I'm not. I have said repeatedly that Mashadar killed Sammael.

 

Does Rand have some responsibility? Of course.

You've quite stubbornly latched onto this idea that partial responsibility translates to the actual act of killing someone. Technically, if I hire someone to kill another person, yes, I am responsible for that person's death. My direct intention was to have that person killed by another. This is not the same case for Sammael's death. Rand did no planning to have anyone other than himself at the end of the smoking gun.

 

So ... what you're saying is that because Rand's plan didn't turn out the way he thought it would, even though the end he sought was still accomplished, it should no longer be considered his action. Like, if you try to kill someone else with a gun, and instead, while dodging bullets, the person falls off a building, you're not responsible? (Honest officer, I missed! Its not my fault the victim fell!) Thats just silly. Rand was trying to kill Sammael. During the course of the battle, Sammael was killed due to circumstances that originated because of the battle. Therefore Rand is responsible. Its really very simple.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If you're incapable of understanding what personal accountability is, then there's no point in having this discussion.

 

Everything Sammael did - all of which led directly to his death - was the result of choices he freely made. Nobody forced him to take any of those actions.

 

It's really that simple.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Everything Sammael did - all of which led directly to his death - was the result of choices he freely made. Nobody forced him to take any of those actions.

 

Then every person who dies, is responsible for their own death.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not if they die directly at the hands of another.

 

That person made the choice to personally harm them. That person is also accountable for his/her own acts.

 

Forming the intent to harm someone is not the same as actually harming them. If you decide you're going to shoot Joe Blow at the corner of 9th and Main, and ol' Joe gets run over by a bus because he wasn't paying attention to where he was going - before he sees you, and before you pull the trigger - even though you meant to kill him, you aren't responsible for his death.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you decide you're going to shoot Joe Blow at the corner of 9th and Main, and ol' Joe gets run over by a bus at 8th and Main - even though you meant to kill him, you aren't responsible for his death.

 

If you decide you're going to shoot Joe Blow at the corner of 9th and Main, and ol' Joe gets run over by a bus at 9th and Main while dodging your bullets - even though you meant to kill him, then you are responsible for his death. Sammael got Mashadar-ed to death because he was focusing on Rand. If he had been taking a random walk through Shadar Logoth for kicks, and got Mashadar-ed, then your argument would be valid. But since he was there in response to Rand's attack, and was distracted by Rand's channeling, it is Rand's responsibility.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Certainly, if Joe Blow gets run over by a bus while dodging your bullets, you are responsible.

 

Now let's look at a slightly different situation:

 

Suppose someone a half block away notices a piano falling toward a woman walking down the sidewalk and yells, "Watch out!"

 

Joe, distracted by the noise, looking toward where the man shouted rather than where he is going, steps out in front of the bus, gets squashed and dies.

 

The man who yelled isn't responsible for Joe's death. Joe died because he failed to keep his priorities straight. Rule # 1: Be aware of your surroundings. Watch where you're going.

 

Rand wasn't shooting at Sam. Sam wasn't dodging. Rand was in Shadar Logoth precisely because that is where Sammael wanted him to be at that time.

 

Rand's intent to eliminate Sammael was realized. Rand himself was not the agent of that elimination. Sam got stupid and stepped out in front of a bus.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To really make our story of poor ol' Joe Blow most applicable here, we need to turn things around.

 

You still wanna shoot Joe at the corner of 9th and Main. Joe is still walking up the street.

 

The twist is that this time, you get so focused on spotting ol' Joe so you can blow him to smithereens that you step out in front of the bus.

 

According to you, Joe killed you. Simply because he exists and that infuriates you so much that you just have to kill him.

 

That isn't how life works.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're changing the nature of "Joe's" actions, whereas in both your examples, "Joe" is not trying to do anything to "me". The intention to kill is mutual. So if "Joe" is trying to KILL me, and while fighting "Joe" I step out into the street to shoot him, and get hit by a bus from behind, then "Joe" is responsible. Nasty as he is, Sammael was still trying to defend himself, Rand initiated the attack, putting the responsibilty for the eventual result on him.

[Jonn]

Uh, it's a simple concept guys.

 

If I shot someone with a gun, killing them, I killed them. Me.

 

It doesn't matter the motivation or any of the outside factors. If my bullet killed that person, I in fact killed them.

 

It doesn't matter if I meant to, if it was an accident, if someone hired me to do it. My bullet killed the person, hence I am their killer.

 

It doesn't matter what I ate for breakfast, how I was raised as a child, my economic status. If something I did from action A became the immediate result, B, with nothing in between. I am the sum, product, key phrase in the equation.

 

If I ate someone else's sandwich. I ATE THE SANDWICH. The reasons don't matter. If I got hungry because I skipped lunch because my boss had me working on something...You can't say my boss ate the f***ing sandwich.

 

I ATE THE SANDWICH.

 

MASHADAR ATE SAMMAEL. PERIOD.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree. Mashadar got Sam. That doesn't mean it was "responsible" for his death.

 

In order for anyone or anything to be held "responsible", that person or thing must have the capacity to discriminate and to form intent. One of the definitions for responsible is: having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action; Mashadar had no such capacity. It was a mindless force, not an entity. Holding it "responsible" for Sam's death would be akin to holding gravity responsible for the death of anyone who dies due to a fall.

 

Sam was in a place where that mindless force could get him, not because of anything Rand did directly, but because of how Sam freely chose to respond to what Rand did in general.

 

Sam did have the capacity to discriminate and to form intent. He was capable of rational thought or action. That makes Sam responsible for all of the choices he made. He had a near infinity of possible choices he could make in response to Rand's attack. Shadar Logoth was just one of those choices.

 

It was the wrong choice. But, it was entirely Sam's choice. Nobody and nothing forced him to go there. Nobody and nothing forced him to choose to stand where he did. Nobody and nothing forced him to do anything in particular. He, Sammael, freely chose each and every step that led directly to his own death.

 

Therefore, Sammael is the only one who can be held responsible for that death.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jonn.

 

Please actually read what I say.

 

I have said, several times, both in this thread and others:

 

Mashadar killed Sammael.

 

Now, you tell me that Rand is completely uninvolved, and bears no "responsibility".

 

I'll laugh if you do, because you already said this:

 

Does Rand have some responsibility? Of course.

 

I do not, have never, and never will deny Mashadar killed Sammael. Just because you choose to limit your argument to "direct" effects doesn't mean the rest of us have to. Rand contributed to Sammael's death, and deserves the "credit" or "responsibility" for that. Rand is the Sammael was in Shadar Logoth where Mashadar killed him. Rand is the only reason for Sammael to be there. And Mashadar is unlikely to have killed Sammael, if Sammael had not been distracted and concentrating on Rand.

 

The argument for simplicity is a bit odd ... coming from you, Jonn, considering other conversations we've had ...

 

Now, Bob ...

 

It was the wrong choice. But, it was entirely Sam's choice. Nobody and nothing forced him to go there. Nobody and nothing forced him to choose to stand where he did. Nobody and nothing forced him to do anything in particular. He, Sammael, freely chose each and every step that led directly to his own death.

 

Therefore, Sammael is the only one who can be held responsible for that death.

 

By that reasoning, I can demonstrate to you that every single person who has ever died from anything other than "natural causes", is solely responsible for their own death. Sammael is partially responsible. But as he was not the only person

having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action

involved, then he is not solely responsible. Rand's plans and actions had a causative effect: Sammael choices were a response to Rand's. Therefore, Rand is also partially responsible. Indeed, since Rand's plans and actions initiated the sequence, he bears primary responsibility. If Rand never attacked Illian, Sammael would not have been killed by Mashadar.

 

And yes, I know the chain can be taken back further; it can be taken back infinitely. Its a little thing called causality. I say again, the attack on Illian was not the beginning, there are no beginnings or endings in the Wheel of Time, but it was a beginning. It was the beginning of the immediate set of circumstances.

[Jonn]

Yes, so while Sammael's attention was focused on Rand, Mashadar got him. Like, when someone is trying to kill you, and you lead them into a trap. It wasn't you, it was the spikes at the bottom of the pit.

 

Rand was responsible for Sammael's presence in Shadar Logoth to begin with, and during the course of their fight, the surrounding area killed him. I still chalk it up to Rand, and, like most of the rest of his Forsaken kills, it was luck, to a large extent.

 

RAW this was your original statement.

 

See, I already explained that Sammael's presence in Shadar Logoth was his own choosing. Rand wasn't responsible for them going to Shadar Logoth.

 

He attacked Illian. That was expected. If Rand had killed Sammael in Illian, then you could clearly say that Rand has the most responsibility.

 

The overall reasoning that Rand attacking Sammael caused him to die does not work. It's one thing to plan to kill someone, and another to actually do it as planned.

 

Moiraine, when she executed her trap on Lanfear, had a good idea what the result would be if she took her steps to action. This is why it is a strong argument to put Lanfear's death at her hands. The key is intent. Lanfear's removal was her intent all along and it played out as she wanted it to. Every step was set up by Moiraine down to the last detail. It was such that Lanfear had no suspicion that Moiraine had any plans against her life up until the moment she was attacked.

 

Sammael on the other hand, knew exactly what Rand wanted to do at that point. So then he took his own measures to change the ground to one of his choosing. Rand really had no idea where they would end up, and in fact it was Sammael's trap, not Rand's surprise attack, that became to final battlefield between Sammael and the Dragon.

 

The trap works like this. Mashadar is extremely attracted to the Shadow. It seeks it out and destroys it more quickly with swarming tenacity when the shadow is within the city. Sammael counted on this so he drove hundreds of shadowspawn into the city to pin down and engage Rand so that mashadar would swarm around those same areas. Meanwhile, Sammael would move around on the fringes and take pot shots at Rand while he was preoccupied with shadowspawn and dodging the mashadar waves.

 

This was entirely Sammael's doing. It show strategy, premeditation and intent. By the time Rand travels to the ground, all of his plans shift to defending himself. None of his plans is in play other than to stay alive and hopefully kill Sammael, which wasn't likely to happen because Sammael's trap was pretty tight. In fact, he didn't kill Sammael, we all agree mashadar did.

 

Unlike Moiraine's model, Rand had not forseen going to this ground. He had no plan other than to do what he had always done, rush in recklessly and count on his luck. As far as his intent and strategy, he fell right into Sammael's hands. He lost control of the engagement and all of his plans were nullified by his own actions. His plan was to engage Sammael in Illian and to take him out there. The only thing that came off right was the taking of Illian. That was largely due to Bashere and Mat's planning.

 

I'd suggest abandoning this chicken and egg reasoning of Rand attacking Illian leading to Sammael going to Shadar Logoth. It is quite plain that Sammael had pre-planned Travelling to Shadar Logoth on his own, independent of what Rand intended to stage in Illian.

 

It's just as easy to say that Sammael wanted Rand to attack him all along in the hopes that he'd fall into his trap in Shadar Logoth.

 

Rand never intended to go to Shadar Logoth, the place that eventually took Sammael's life. Therefore, Rand cannot be chiefly responsible for Sammael's demise.

[kruss2828]

I agree and have always thought it was Greandal becuase eveyone else was busy at the time.

[Eyeless621]

I finally got my dad to start reading the series. He's on book 3, but I will ask him as soon as he's finished the 5th book. I haven't mentioned anything to him about anything, so his response will be unspoiled. I'll post what he says once he's gotten there.

[bjclinton]

How would he know that Moiraine wasn't dead :shock:

 

I don't remember which book exactly, but i'm pretty sure it was one of the first 3 books, that I realized that Moraine was going to be in a situation where her life was going to be saved by Thom Merrilin. Min had a viewing of Tom reaching his hand into fire and pulling out a blue stone (I forget the exact quote, but its close enough) and I always was wondering what was going to happen for Thom to have to save Moiraine (obviously immediately connecting the blue stone that Moiraine wears on her forhead as being the symbol for Moiraine's life)...anyway, the minute Moiraine and Lanfear fell into the twisted doorway Ter'angreal, I knew that Thom was going to have to go into the world of the 'finns to save her.

 

....maybe i just took for granted how obvious that was, but I literally never once even considered the fact that she was dead. your brother probably made the same connection

[Cybertrolloc]

Every step was set up by Moiraine down to the last detail. It was such that Lanfear had no suspicion that Moiraine had any plans against her life up until the moment she was attacked.

Funny.

 

The trap works like this. Mashadar is extremely attracted to the Shadow. It seeks it out and destroys it more quickly with swarming tenacity when the shadow is within the city. Sammael counted on this so he drove hundreds of shadowspawn into the city to pin down and engage Rand so that mashadar would swarm around those same areas. Meanwhile' date=' Sammael would move around on the fringes and take pot shots at Rand while he was preoccupied with shadowspawn and dodging the mashadar waves.[/quote']

Started off ok with the motivations and such... Sammael had warded Shadar Logoth as he did Illian. When Rand channels, what happens? Perhaps Mashadar was part of his plan, but somehow I got the impression that Sammael wants to kill Rand personally as much as Rand wants to kill Sammy. It's right there at the end--Rand knows Sammael is going to get whacked, but wants to kill him personally. He would have if he didn't turn to blast Liah instead.

[Jonn]

Every step was set up by Moiraine down to the last detail. It was such that Lanfear had no suspicion that Moiraine had any plans against her life up until the moment she was attacked.

Funny.

 

What's so funny? It's true.

 

The trap works like this. Mashadar is extremely attracted to the Shadow. It seeks it out and destroys it more quickly with swarming tenacity when the shadow is within the city. Sammael counted on this so he drove hundreds of shadowspawn into the city to pin down and engage Rand so that mashadar would swarm around those same areas. Meanwhile' date=' Sammael would move around on the fringes and take pot shots at Rand while he was preoccupied with shadowspawn and dodging the mashadar waves.[/quote']

Started off ok with the motivations and such... Sammael had warded Shadar Logoth as he did Illian. When Rand channels, what happens? Perhaps Mashadar was part of his plan, but somehow I got the impression that Sammael wants to kill Rand personally as much as Rand wants to kill Sammy. It's right there at the end--Rand knows Sammael is going to get whacked, but wants to kill him personally. He would have if he didn't turn to blast Liah instead.

 

Your point? Of course they want to kill each other. That's not the question. The question is who or what killed Sammael?

 

Mashadar did.

 

Who is responsible for the way things turned out? You can't really have a concrete answer for that to be fair. Rand had every motivation and intention of kill Sammael, but he didn't have the means to fix it so that it happened the way it actually did.

 

He simply followed Sammael into Shadar Logoth, intending to kill him with balefire. Mashadar beat him to the job.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. We disagree. Nothing new or unusual about that. I believe that if someone initiates a series of events, they are responsible for the outcome, whether it occurs as they intended or not. Therefore, I view Rand as primarily responsible for Sammael's death at the "hands" of Mashadar. You don't. -shrug- OK.