The End of the Red Ajah

[raydurz]

I apologize if this has been dicussed before, but does anyone else think this book will see the end of the Red Ajah? Firstly, Elaida, raised from the Red has to be the Worst-Amrilyn-Ever. Worse than Bowhin. She split the Tower, abuses her power, and is about to get attacked by the Seanchan, even after being forewarned by Egwene. Secondly the Red Ajah will be bonding with Ashaman and it won't surprise me if they only bond with Taim's cronies who are all Darkfriends (at least I think they are). And Lastly, probably the biggest reason for the demise of the Red Ajah is the fact that Rand has cleansed the taint so there will be no reason to hunt down and gentle men who can channel, the whole reason the Red Ajah exists.

 

I for one will be happy to see the Red Ajah go the way of the dodo. I can't stand most of them with the exception of Teslyn and Pevara.

[Simple Gleeman]

Well..

 

As you said, their purpose for existence was destroyed.

 

I tend to think that eventually the intelligent Asha'men and Aes Sedai will eventually realize they need to work together - after weeding out all the morons, in both groups - and in doing so will gain a respect for each other as usually happens when allies are fighting for survival.

 

If not... then hopefully Rand won't need an army of channelers to win TG otherwise only the Black Ajah will survive =)

[Gandaal]

If the White Tower still exists at the end of the next book the Red Ajah will still exist within. You can already see it's purpose changing before our very eyes over the last few books. Their purpose in the future will likely involve being the forerunners in formal and informal interaction between Aes Sedai and Asha'men.

[Guest cwestervelt]

As Gandaal said, if the White Tower survives Tarmon Gaidon, the Red Ajah will remain. Egwene has made it very clear that she considers herself Amyrlin of the Red Sisters too. They don't recognize her, but she still recognizes them as part of the Tower.

 

Gandaal vioces an apparently popular belief that they Red Ajah will be the foremost link between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. As an Ajah, they need something more than that to justify their continuation. In actuallity, they were not the first Aes Sedai to reconcile with the Asha'man. Prior to the illicit agreement between Pevara and Taim, Aes Sedai had already received permission to bond Asha'man and some had already done so. Second, the Red are still being motivated by a desire to control the male channellers. They see the bonding as a way to prevent the men from being able to channel. While the other Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man have accepted they men can channel safely, the Red's have not. The Red Ajah, being the only Ajah not represented among the Rebels, is the only Ajah that is excluded from the agreement that allows bonding of Asha'man. Taim did not have the authority to make the deal with Pevara that he entered into.

 

The Red Ajah does have a valid place in a post Cleansing world. With a slight shift in goals, the Ajah can become what they should have been from the beginning. Hunters of Channelling Darkfriends, dreadlords if you wish, both male and female. Attempting to eliminate all followers of the Dark One needs to begin somewhere, and it will not be an overnight process. It should be able to keep them busy for a good Age or so. It should even make Pevara happy.

[algspkr]

As Gandaal said, if the White Tower survives Tarmon Gaidon, the Red Ajah will remain. Egwene has made it very clear that she considers herself Amyrlin of the Red Sisters too. They don't recognize her, but she still recognizes them as part of the Tower.

 

Gandaal vioces an apparently popular belief that they Red Ajah will be the foremost link between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. As an Ajah, they need something more than that to justify their continuation. In actuallity, they were not the first Aes Sedai to reconcile with the Asha'man. Prior to the illicit agreement between Pevara and Taim, Aes Sedai had already received permission to bond Asha'man and some had already done so. Second, the Red are still being motivated by a desire to control the male channellers. They see the bonding as a way to prevent the men from being able to channel. While the other Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man have accepted they men can channel safely, the Red's have not. The Red Ajah, being the only Ajah not represented among the Rebels, is the only Ajah that is excluded from the agreement that allows bonding of Asha'man. Taim did not have the authority to make the deal with Pevara that he entered into.

 

The Red Ajah does have a valid place in a post Cleansing world. With a slight shift in goals, the Ajah can become what they should have been from the beginning. Hunters of Channelling Darkfriends, dreadlords if you wish, both male and female. Attempting to eliminate all followers of the Dark One needs to begin somewhere, and it will not be an overnight process. It should be able to keep them busy for a good Age or so. It should even make Pevara happy.

Post cleansing I see the Reds as the hunters of humans, the police ajah, and the Greens as the hunters of things that should not be, the battle ajah. Post Tarmon Gai'don, both functions will at best be severely diminished.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Truthfully, I don't think the Tower will be recognizable in 100 years. With the end of an Age, and the beginning of a new one, things tend to change dramatically. Besides, channeling is on the way out, the next Age will probably see the end of channeling, the ability dying out of the population, until the Wheel turns back around.

 

That is, of course, simply my opinion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: Truthfully, I don't think the Tower will be recognizable in 100 years. With the end of an Age, and the beginning of a new one, things tend to change dramatically. Besides, channeling is on the way out, the next Age will probably see the end of channeling, the ability dying out of the population, until the Wheel turns back around.

 

That is, of course, simply my opinion.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you there, at least not entirely. The next Age is going to have a more primal basis what with the resurgence of Wolf Brothers, Sniffers and the like. I think the Power will probably survive through until late in the Age and die out completely in the 5th age.

 

Considering the White and Black Tower, I think it is a matter of what will happen immediately, and what must happen eventually. What will happen immediately is that the Ajah's, particularly the Red and Green, will need to shift. The Red needs to shift as I mentioned earlier, and become a general Darkfriend hunting Ajah with an emphasis on Channellers. The Green can no longer prepare for the Last Battle, they will need to start dealing with the aftermath, primarily hunting down the remaining Shadowspawn etcetera. Unlike algspkr I don't see either of those activities being significantly diminished by Tarmon Gaidon to be over quickly. In the real world they are still hunting and prosecuting people for war crimes committed during World War II. The job isn't considered over until all have been accounted for either dead or alive. When dealing with Channeller's, that means you can consider several hundred years time passing before you can safely assume you got them all.

 

What needs to happen is a complete tearing down of the White and Black Towers. It's like the Dark One's prison. To truly fix it they need to start from scratch.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Egwene is the perfect leader to tear down the current structure completely. She is very strong in the Power, as well as a highly skilled channeler. She has already demonstrated both a high degree of political skill and a willingness to throw out unnecessary or unwanted traditions. She is very young, so she is likely to live long enough to realize essentially any vision she wishes to. She has connections through herself or very close friends to every group of channelers in the world, except the Ayyad, and whatever may exist on the Isle of Madmen (her obvious connection with the Wise Ones, connections through the Bargain and Elayne to the Sea Folk, a connection, albeit an adversarial one, with the Seanchan, and a link and history with the founder of the Black Tower, one Rand al'Thor.)

 

If she survives Tarmon Gai'don, she will be the Amyrlin who both reunited the Tower and preserved it through the Last Battle. That will give her all the political capital she needs to make essentially whatever changes she sees fit to make in the structure of Aes Sedai, over time. The whole cadre of old leaders is either dying or on her side (Moiraine is something of a wild card here, assuming she survives, but I think she will thoroughly approve of what Egwene has done). Cadsuane is dying. Verin is very old, and likely to go into retirement after the Battle, assuming she survives. The split (and the casualties of the Seanchan attack and Tarmon Gai'don) are likely to leave Egwene as the only really strong leader the Tower has. She will likely enjoy unprecedented power, even for an Amyrlin, at least among the Sisters.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not if she persists in her idiocy concerning taking the Three Oaths. She started clinging to tradition in order to gain acceptance. If she continues, she will not be able to recover. She can only tear down the current structure if she remembers what the Aes Sedai have forgotten: Actions, not words, determine who a person is.

[Luckers]

Given her change in position on the oaths seems to potentially have been caused by compulsion on behalf of Aran'gar that may not last. But otherwise i agree with both of you.

 

Although Robert, has it occured to you that the older Aes Sedai are not in fact old? If, in some manner, Egwene manages to convince people to foreswear the oaths, and if the damaged caused by them is not permenant--which indications from those that have been severed, and those like Sharina who are de-aging, is indeed possible--then Cadsuane has another 300 years ahead of her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Although Robert, has it occured to you that the older Aes Sedai are not in fact old? If, in some manner, Egwene manages to convince people to foreswear the oaths, and if the damaged caused by them is not permenant--which indications from those that have been severed, and those like Sharina who are de-aging, is indeed possible--then Cadsuane has another 300 years ahead of her.

 

Thats a good point, one I hadn't thoroughly thought through .... I wonder if repairing the "damage" from the wear the Oaths put on a person is repaired by the same mechanism that is de-aging Sharina. From Siuan and Leane, it would seem so, although neither of them had worn the Oaths for centuries like Verin and Cadsuane. Still, Egwene's current plan is to have Aes Sedai retire into the Kin when released, those sisters who choose to do that would not be a major influence on Aes Sedai policy any more ... at least the way things are now. That could all change.

 

Regardless, Egwene should still find herself in a uniquely powerful position.

[Luckers]

Oh no, i agree about Egwene.

 

On Verin, I just realised she may not be as old as we seem to assume. Bear with me, im going through the books, so this may be a bit jumbled. According to Merana Verin had 5 years as a novice, and 6 as an Accepted. Lets say she come to the tower at 20 (much later she would have been turned away), so by the time she became Aes Sedai she was 31.

 

Now Merana said that she had been Aes Sedai ten years the day Alanna was born. Now we know that Alanna was Accepted in New Spring--20 years ago. Saying that Alanna joined the tower at 20, and spent say... 5 years as a novice and 5 as accepted she would probably be somewhere around 45, though it may be as high as 50 or low as 40 depending on when she was raised after New Spring, how long she actually spent as a novice and Acepted and so on, but for the sake of this ill say 45. And if Merana had been Aes Sedai 10 years by then, and she was a novice and Accepted for the same length of time as Verin-5 and 6 years respectively, and also joined at 20, then Merana is 45 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 20 = 86.

 

There is an inconsistancy here, however. Cadsuane later states that Alanna has worn the shawl 40 years, however i think we have to take an actual physical appearence in New Spring over Cadsuane's opinion. However, for the sake of concideration of an upper age, that sets Merana's age at 30 + 40 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 20 = 111 years.

 

Merana then states that Verin is as much older then her, as she is then Alanna. So, that means 86 + 45 = 131 years. At the upper range 167.

 

Even by Aes Sedai standards she is not that old, at either age range. A final concideration though is that Merana is uncertain... she says Verin 'might' be as much older then she is as she is then Alanna, of course this uncertainty is in the lesser... Meranna conciders the 45 to be the upper limit...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Having not researched it as well as you have, my impression has been that Verin was probably a little shy of 200, so I have no problem with those numbers. Of course, since pushing the edges of the Oaths seems to cause a certain amount of stress, and Verin does that almost constantly, the "Oath-wear" on her may be worse ... thats purely speculative though.

[gelrad]

1. Could it be that Cadsuane has removed the oats from her?

 

2. In TG half the light will be used in order to save the world, could it be channeling reduce by half or one side of it?

 

3. In the fact that the rod is used against the black ajah could this spread and replace the 3 oats by one against black ajah?

[Luckers]

No, Cadsuane has not as yet removed her oaths since she still has the ageless look. As for using the oath rod to bind people against joining the dark... except for those who are darkfriends, i dont see the oath rod being used at all. Finally the person who gives up half the light of the world to save the world is mat, therefore i doubt it has any connection to channeling.

[gelrad]

No' date=' Cadsuane has not as yet removed her oaths since she still has the ageless look. As for using the oath rod to bind people against joining the dark... except for those who are darkfriends, i dont see the oath rod being used at all. Finally the person who gives up half the light of the world to save the world is mat, therefore i doubt it has any connection to channeling.[/quote']

 

Black Ajah has the oaths removed and still has ageles look...

 

Mat is going again to save Moiraine where he got the medlion against chaneling, it could be that they will give him something else or tell him how to use it to transfer that power to them in exchange to something that will save the world...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Black Ajah has the oaths removed and still has ageles look...

 

The Black Ajah obviously has access to the Oath Rod, and the fact that they retain the ageless look is evidence that they retake some Oaths of their own. So, unless you're saying Cadsuane is a Darkfriend, then she is still under the Three Oaths. And even assuming she is a Darkfriend (which is highly, highly unlikely), she is still bound by some Oaths, since she retains the ageless look.

 

As evidence that being released from the Oaths removed the ageless look, see Sanche, Siuan and Sharif, Leane.

 

Mat is going again to save Moiraine where he got the medlion against chaneling, it could be that they will give him something else or tell him how to use it to transfer that power to them in exchange to something that will save the world...

 

Considering that Mat got the medallion to get away from channeling in the first place, that is highly unlikely. Second, I doubt the Eelfinn have the ability to affect the True Source in that fashion.

[Limedust]

Hey Luckers

 

"The Second Coming," nice.

[gelrad]

Sanche, Siuan and Sharif, Leane were stilled and healed so are no good example...

 

If the Eelfinn can make such medalion then who can say what they can do, and what can be done with the power required to seal the DO.

[Luckers]

Yeah... it kinda fits my opinion of the world as it is... besides, Yeats writes real pretty words.

 

Black Ajah has the oaths removed and still has ageles look...

 

The Black Ajah swear their own oaths. My guess is three of them... it has a ring to it. Specifically we know one of those oaths is against revealing black ajah plans, or betraying the ajah in anyway. One is also likely an oath to serves the Dark One. The last... who knows...

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think the oaths are contained in their little catechism:

First Oath:

The Great Lord of the Dark is my Master, and most heartily do I serve him to the last shred of my very soul.

Second Oath:

Lo, my Master is death's Master. Asking nothing do I serve against the day of his coming, yet do I serve in the sure and certain hope of life everlasting.

Third Oath:

Surely the faithful shall be exalted in the land, exalted above the unbelievers, exalted above thrones, yet do I serve humbly against the Day of his Return. Swift comes the Day of Return. Swift comes the Great Lord of the Dark to guide us and rule the world forever and ever.

[Trib4l]

Yet we know that one of the oaths is against revealing any knowledge or plan of the black ajah.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not to mention that each of those three statements is essentially a repetition of the first.

 

If you promise to "serve him to the last shred of [your] very soul", there isn't much more you can add under the "promise to serve" department.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis:

Black Ajah has the oaths removed and still has ageles look...

 

The Black Ajah obviously has access to the Oath Rod, and the fact that they retain the ageless look is evidence that they retake some Oaths of their own. So, unless you're saying Cadsuane is a Darkfriend, then she is still under the Three Oaths. And even assuming she is a Darkfriend (which is highly, highly unlikely), she is still bound by some Oaths, since she retains the ageless look.

 

As evidence that being released from the Oaths removed the ageless look, see Sanche, Siuan and Sharif, Leane.

 

Mat is going again to save Moiraine where he got the medlion against chaneling, it could be that they will give him something else or tell him how to use it to transfer that power to them in exchange to something that will save the world...

 

Considering that Mat got the medallion to get away from channeling in the first place, that is highly unlikely. Second, I doubt the Eelfinn have the ability to affect the True Source in that fashion.

 

Don't forget the little seen from Crossroads of Twilight I think it is where Pevara and her group force the one to use the Oath Rod to "forswear all oaths" in one shot. That Black Sister was definitely bound by Oaths.

[algspkr]

I think it's a Galina POV where we see that they abaondon the three oaths and swear a new trinity, it's a black sister's POV anyway.

 

When Adelaes and Vandine are interrogating Folain? they say they can't get any information about the Black Ajah out of her, and theorize she has taken an oath not to betray the Black Ajah.

 

In an Alvarian POV (post SH mark) she is thinks something like: did (the original Black sister caught by the hunters) find away around the oath about betraying the Black Ajah.

 

Sorry I don't have my books, and so this is the best I can do at present, if someone wants to provide the actual quotes it would be great.