How was traveling lost?

[FarShainMael]

On the subject of culture longevity, consider Judaism, as one example. I'm sure readers can supply others.

[Never]

Confutsianism was prominent in China until the rise of Mao Zedong. I don't know it's current situation, just wanted to back up FSM here. It seems much stronger than Judaism in my mind, but I might be wrong. Thing is Judaism lost a lot of influence to Christianity, Islam, Rome etc., while Western people often might consider Confutsianism a religion because of it's prominence in Eastern, mainly Chinese, culture.

[Sharaman]

It's not a religion. But yes, Confucianism did shape a culture from 500 BCE till 1950 CE.

 

The AS -- Brigitte has vague memories of helping to found the WT. The AS culture would have changed drastically in the first 500 years or so of the Breaking. We know the oaths happened much later. And we know that the Trolloc Wars induced several other changes.

It's not been one monolithic fully formed thing unchanged from the beginning.

 

If one may use an analogy, the AS culture is like a syncretist religion/ philosophy formed over centuries through application and analysis of many experiences, rather than a revealed religion with a sequence of one or more prophets handing down revelations.

This means that AS culture does have ample room within for change and we've seen diehard AS such as Silviana, Pevara, Suian, the BA hunters, etc., adapting their philosophy to changed circs.

BTW I'm pretty sure I remember a quote by RJ to the effect that Travel was lost because geography changed so much during the Breaking. But I'm damned if I can find it.

[Never]

It's not a religion. But yes, Confucianism did shape a culture from 500 BCE till 1950 CE.

 

 

Indeed it's not. But many Western people mistakenly think it so due to the reverence of Confutse in China. Sorry if I made myself unclear.

 

 

 

But to what you say further, I agree to some extent; however, the Aes Sedai are very dogmatic, and they receive most of their education in the White Tower. It's as Lenin said; give me your child for eight years and he'll be a Bolshevik forever. Same thing kind applies to the White Tower, I believe; some rebels will always come through, but mostly these women will be taught of the excellence of the White Tower, by the White Tower, and receive little other information. I think the fundamental ideas of the White Tower are VERY strong within all the Aes Sedai who spent decades learning of it from other sisters.

[yoniy0]

Judaism didn't lose its influence; it never really had any (King Solomon's empire wasn't much of an empire, really, and it barely lasted two generations). Nevertheless, the culture itself did survive for about 3K years, despite undergoing a radical change around 70AD. What happened then is actually comparable to the Breaking, now that I think about it, from the AS's point of view.

 

BTW I'm pretty sure I remember a quote by RJ to the effect that Travel was lost because geography changed so much during the Breaking.

I find that odd. After all, Egwene didn't seem to have any problems Skimming to a place she never saw before near Ebou Dar.

[Never]

I'll take you on your word on the Judaism-thing, I know very little about it.

 

 

But Skimming and Traveling are very different, perhaps not so much in effect but in how it works, if I have understood correctly. Skimming doesn't require you to know the place you Travel from, Traveling does. It's still the trick that Rand does though, it's a pretty obvious one so it shouldn't change things to much. After all, you don't know to know the place you're Traveling to, and if it's the bottom of the ocean like a waygate, well, then just close the Gate!

[yoniy0]

Skimming and Traveling are very different

Yes, but both forms died out. We were dealing with the reason for that, and I stipulate that the terrain can't have too much to do with that.

[Never]

Indeed. What I meant to say was actually that I could see why Traveling would die out from this whole Geography-issue, but not why Skimming would.

[Sharaman]

What if the place you're trying to go to no longer exists? Where does the Gateway open while Travelling? Do you end up Skimming to nowhere?

Anyway I do remember that quote and I'm pretty sure my mind isn't playing tricks. It would have to be post TSR minimum.

[dwn]

What if the place you're trying to go to no longer exists? Where does the Gateway open while Travelling? Do you end up Skimming to nowhere?

Anyway I do remember that quote and I'm pretty sure my mind isn't playing tricks. It would have to be post TSR minimum.

 

I've seen that quote/reference as well, but I can't find it. And yes, IIRC, Travelling was lost because the shifting geography and general chaos made it useless during the breaking.

 

-- dwn

[yoniy0]

Again, how is it useless if you can get where you want to go just by hearsay? Unless it could be fatal just to try Traveling/Skimming to someplace deformed by the Breaking.

[dwn]

Again, how is it useless if you can get where you want to go just by hearsay? Unless it could be fatal just to try Traveling/Skimming to someplace deformed by the Breaking.

 

Look how much trouble Verin had with random events and distractions keeping her from using Gateways effectively. Look how tired Grady and Neald are after weaving Gateways around Altara and Ghealdan. How long can you stay in any one place when the world is falling apart around you? How often does your Gateway open to the wrong destination before you just stop trying?

 

-- dwn

[jsbrads]

Without starting a religious thread, Judaism's influence doesn't need wideness to be an example of 3k+ yrs of specific traditions (cellphones and other incidentals don't come into it). Many traditions (ritual purity, etc.) which may or may not have been of Jewish origin were ascribed to groups of people all over the world during Imperialism by (primarily) Christian missionaries.

I think the wideness of Jewish influence is Christianity and Islam. Those religions are based on Judaism and for better or worse have some of the same values and beliefs. The differences exist and they are not Judaism, but they were influenced.

[yoniy0]

Look how much trouble Verin had with random events and distractions keeping her from using Gateways effectively.

That had nothing to do with Breaking-like conditions. The Pattern conspired not to allow her to Travel or Skim to the right place. Can't see that happening to some random AS who wanted to Skim during the Breaking.

 

Look how tired Grady and Neald are after weaving Gateways around Altara and Ghealdan.

That was from holding Gateways open for an entire army day in and day out, and doing busy work besides. Not from Traveling with a small group.

 

How long can you stay in any one place when the world is falling apart around you?

From what we've seen of the Breaking, madmen and bandits were a common sight, but not so common that no week passed without meeting one or the other. That's well enough time for an AS to get familiar with an area, even if you discard the possibility of Skimming.

 

How often does your Gateway open to the wrong destination before you just stop trying?

Again, I don't see any reason for that to happen too much. From time to time, yes, but even if only one Gateway in five actually worked, I wouldn't forget the weave.

 

 

No, what was discussed upthread regarding the training cycle of AS apprentices seems to me a much likelier explanation. Unless someone finds this quote?

[FarShainMael]

Without starting a religious thread, Judaism's influence doesn't need wideness to be an example of 3k+ yrs of specific traditions (cellphones and other incidentals don't come into it). Many traditions (ritual purity, etc.) which may or may not have been of Jewish origin were ascribed to groups of people all over the world during Imperialism by (primarily) Christian missionaries.

I think the wideness of Jewish influence is Christianity and Islam. Those religions are based on Judaism and for better or worse have some of the same values and beliefs. The differences exist and they are not Judaism, but they were influenced.

 

Of course, Jesus was born a Jew..

 

..ok, back to topic

 

A pity Verin didn't think of using Rand's trick to learn a place by Travelling a very short distance first, before making a long jump!

[dwn]

Look how much trouble Verin had with random events and distractions keeping her from using Gateways effectively.

That had nothing to do with Breaking-like conditions. The Pattern conspired not to allow her to Travel or Skim to the right place. Can't see that happening to some random AS who wanted to Skim during the Breaking.

 

Look how tired Grady and Neald are after weaving Gateways around Altara and Ghealdan.

That was from holding Gateways open for an entire army day in and day out, and doing busy work besides. Not from Traveling with a small group.

 

How long can you stay in any one place when the world is falling apart around you?

From what we've seen of the Breaking, madmen and bandits were a common sight, but not so common that no week passed without meeting one or the other. That's well enough time for an AS to get familiar with an area, even if you discard the possibility of Skimming.

 

How often does your Gateway open to the wrong destination before you just stop trying?

Again, I don't see any reason for that to happen too much. From time to time, yes, but even if only one Gateway in five actually worked, I wouldn't forget the weave.

 

 

No, what was discussed upthread regarding the training cycle of AS apprentices seems to me a much likelier explanation. Unless someone finds this quote?

 

I've been searching for that quote/reference with no luck. That explanation was brought up in the newsgroup years ago, but I'm still certain i've seen it mentioned in-world or in an interview quote somewhere.

 

My point, though poorly stated, was that Gateways take a fair bit of strength and have location requirements that could easily be disrupted in the social and geological chaos of the breaking. Given that, it's makes some sense why Aes Sedai failed to pass them on to apprentices during the breaking--even if the weaves would have been extremely useful under better circumstances.

 

-- dwn

[jcsalomon]

Judaism didn't lose its influence; it never really had any (King Solomon's empire wasn't much of an empire, really, and it barely lasted two generations). Nevertheless, the culture itself did survive for about 3K years, despite undergoing a radical change around 70AD. What happened then is actually comparable to the Breaking, now that I think about it, from the AS's point of view.

 

Interesting parallels, there. After the chaos following Great Revolt in 70 C.E., and even more so after the Bar Kochba revolt in 136 C.E., Jewish scholars took the very first opportunity they could to collect & codify what traditions & knowledge they had, and attempt to recreate the missing bits. If Aes Sedai had followed that model, the centuries after (say) the Trolloc Wars were over should have seen a burst of new weaves created.

[jcsalomon]

Look how much trouble Verin had with random events and distractions keeping her from using Gateways effectively.

That had nothing to do with Breaking-like conditions. The Pattern conspired not to allow her to Travel or Skim to the right place. Can't see that happening to some random AS who wanted to Skim during the Breaking.

A pity Verin didn't think of using Rand's trick to learn a place by Travelling a very short distance first, before making a long jump!

 

I'd kinda assumed Verin was lying. She can do that, y'know...

[yoniy0]

I'd kinda assumed Verin was lying. She can do that, y'know...

That's an awful lot of work to pacify someone who doesn't have the tiniest bit of clue about how the Source works. She might have told him it just didn't work, or brought her to him instead of TV. He wouldn't have questioned her timeline.

No, I believe her in this instance.

[Sharaman]

Here goes an attempted explanation of how/why Travel was lost.

Travel and Skimming connect two destinations

Travel requires the person to have a very clear picture ("knowledge") of the origin and no knowledge as such of the destination.

Skimming requires no real knowledge of origin but it takes longer.

 

Speculation follows:

 

Both Travel and Skimming require a stable destination that actually exists.

If the destination has been balefired/ suffered a volcanic eruption/ tidal wave/ avalanche/ some other weirdness it is actively dangerous to attempt to either Travel or Skim.

 

A Travel Gate will attempt to open into nowhere / explode / experience some craziness with lava or waves of water flowing back out.

A Skimming Platform will just carry on moving forever through "no-space".

Or something nasty on these lines will happen.

 

The Breaking saw several centuries of aforementioned weirdness and geological change.

If the above speculation about how Travel/ Skimming behaves when destination is "altered" is correct, then the explanation I remember reading, makes sense.

It seems logical enough.

[dwn]

For what it's worth, here's part of an old (c. 1995) WOTFAQ post. It's an interesting analogy of the differences between Travelling and Skimming.

 

Skimming is like getting somewhere by placing yourself on a highway system. You can take as many people as you can fit in your vehicle, and as long as you know where you are going you can get there. Thus you need to know where your destination well in order to get there.

 

Traveling is like placing a phone call to somewhere and shifting yourself through the phone lines. Thus if you know how to use a telephone (ie you have knowledge of the place that you are at) you can place a random phone call and hook up with some place that you have never been (what Aviendha did) but if you know the number, you can call wherever you want, and go someplace specific.

 

-- dwn