When is the Dragon Reborn

[jwood01]

Do we know if this is purely at Rand's birth? or is this related to access to Saidin?

 

I was just rereading tGH and noticed that when Rand, Loial and Hurin are in the reflection world, that Rand finds the tree-signing song familiar. It could have been that it was similar to the one at the Eye of the World, but the text specifically says that it is different. Was Rand subconsciously accessing LTT's memories?

[Luckers]

Access to LTT's memories is a result of the Taint. The Taint induces normal forms of insanity to manifest--note the variety; the man who suffered delusions of spiders compared to Fedwin Morr who suffers a complete regression to childhood, to Lews Therin who has a break with reality. The Taint is not a form of insanity, rather it causes normal forms of insanity to manifest.

 

From there we have Semirhage's statement--which every element of which that we can verify has proven to be true, and whom Lews Therin states rarely lies--that the manifestation of a real past life voice is a normal form of insanity in the World of the Wheel. For all that it is a real voice does not change the fact that it is a form of mental instability that we phrase to be madness, and Semirhage is quite clear on this.

 

So yes, the Taint dunnit.

 

As for your question as to whether Rand's familiarity with the Singing was a result of his memories... its entirely possible. Spider guy fell in a couple of days, so there is no reason to think Rand might not have had access that early on.

 

Alternately it could have been blood memory--Rand as Aiel exposed to Treesinging.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think from the prophecy the dragon is reborn at rand's birth on the slopes of dragonmount.

 

ah, didn't see the subquestion, sorry. most likely what luckers said. unless terez has a better idea.

[jwood01]

Thanks Luckers!

[JeffWeissberg]

interesting, then how come Perrin a few times, kind of, 'almost' remembers things?

[Suttree]

interesting, then how come Perrin a few times, kind of, 'almost' remembers things?

 

Because...

 

“The old blood is strong in Emond's Field, and the old blood sings.”

—Moiraine Damodred

 

Sometimes the old blood allows memories to come through such as Mat and his battle cries early in the story.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I always kinda broke it down in my head like this:

 

We've got Rand. Rand starts going insane, caused by the taint, manifested with apparent schizophrenia which for him means he's hearing LTT. So he's insane. We also know from Rand growing up, legends, myths, etc. that even if you weren't going insane, you'd be of the mindset that LTT was indeed insane...

 

...Thereby we have a man who by virtue of insanity 'hears' the voice of another insane man inside his head.

 

My wondering has always been, that if the taint weren't a factor, and there were no schizophrenic outcomes - and Rand was totally sane - would he still end up having access to those memories somehow down the line, or does it run along the lines that Rand would just be the incarnation of the Dragon soul, spun out like a hero of the horn with only the memories from his present life, for example.

 

Guess it'll be a quirky circular plot mechanism for the Dark One, having tainted the male half of the source, to invariably set things up for his apparent downfall in the next age, for by virtue of taint induced insanity Rand as the Dragon, eventually is able to reconcile & integrate the memories of his past life as the Dragon, LTT, which he very well would never have known of or had access to, had there been no taint induced madness to begin with.

 

Double...Dragon?

 

*awards self two points for obscure classic video game reference

[Terez]

Do we know if this is purely at Rand's birth? or is this related to access to Saidin?

 

I was just rereading tGH and noticed that when Rand, Loial and Hurin are in the reflection world, that Rand finds the tree-signing song familiar. It could have been that it was similar to the one at the Eye of the World, but the text specifically says that it is different. Was Rand subconsciously accessing LTT's memories?

As for your first question from the thread title, the first verifiable instance of Rand remembering Lews Therin's memories was in the dream he had in TEOTW 9. He recognized Shayol Ghul, and Ishamael as well. That was before he channeled for the first time, as far as we know. After that, the first verifiable Lews Therin memories are in TSR 9-10. I don't know if I would count his sense of familiarity with the Treesong as verifiable. Also in TGH, the Heroes of the Horn seemed to have sparked a memory...but that would be a memory of the afterlife, not of Lews Therin's life. Lews Therin didn't know how many Heroes there were, for example, until he was dead. That's the only time Rand ever remembered anything from the afterlife. In TFOH 2 the memories start becoming a regular thing.

 

Brandon said the taint had something to do with the memories, but that there was more going on than just that. I doubt that the memories are actually a manifestation of insanity; more likely they cause insanity because of the inevitable identity crisis, which was aggravated in Rand's case by the knowledge of who Lews Therin Kinslayer was.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think the memories themselves are a type of madness as some believe. I think Rand was supposed to have access to them.

[ZeshanHamdani]

I was a Tower Guard at the NYC book singing of TGS in Nov 2010.

i asked Sanderson this very question and he said, and I'm paraphrasing here that "no, LTT is not cause by the Taint"

[Terez]

I was a Tower Guard at the NYC book singing of TGS in Nov 2010.

If it was TGS then you were a Stormleader. Tower Guards were for TOM.

 

i asked Sanderson this very question and he said, and I'm paraphrasing here that "no, LTT is not cause by the Taint"

Did anyone report that? It's not in any of the NYC Stormleader/Tower Guard reports that I have. (Generally we frown on people reporting things only when it becomes relevant to a debate.) Right now, all I have is this quote (not from NYC), which might not refer to the memories at all, really:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

That basically says that the taint influenced the development of the 'voice', but doesn't really comment on the memories specifically. But if you can figure out which signing you went to, I can add your report to the database.

[ZeshanHamdani]

yea i meant ToM. i never said the taint didn't influence it. of course the taint had an effect.

but LTT was there before Rand channeled.

And other Tower Guards were there when i asked the question and got the answer.

they can testify if u want. but, i don't know if they will remember.

i never brought up the quote on forums before because i didn't see a relevance to talk about it and i am not a huge forum poster.

 

 

and u sound like an ads sedai, whitecloak or any person part of a group/click from ur accusatory statement and referencing a "We" as a body coming together to "Frown on people..."

if Dragonmount is like this than I'm sorry i will refrain from posting anymore blogs as i am an "Outsider"

[Terez]

Sorry, wasn't trying to be offensive.

[ZeshanHamdani]

No problem.

but i can see your point about bringing it up in a blog.

I'm just sharing my knowledge.

[Luckers]

Yeah its always been clear that the preasure on Rand is a major contributing factor--in many ways perhaps even a larger one than the Taint itself. I usually think of the Taint like a catalyst--it makes things fluid. It gives you a shove, but when you fall and how you hurt yourself depends on how quick on your feet you are, and what's in front of you--or to switch back to pseudo-psychology, it causes mental instability allowing for natural predispositions to manifest.

 

It actually makes a large amount of sense when you think about the fact that different forms of madness manifest, and in different intervals. The taint destabalizes you, but your own mental states and personal stressers will determine the way in which you succumb to that disposition.

[ZeshanHamdani]

Yeah its always been clear that the preasure on Rand is a major contributing factor--in many ways perhaps even a larger one than the Taint itself. I usually think of the Taint like a catalyst--it makes things fluid. It gives you a shove, but when you fall and how you hurt yourself depends on how quick on your feet you are, and what's in front of you--or to switch back to pseudo-psychology, it causes mental instability allowing for natural predispositions to manifest.

 

It actually makes a large amount of sense when you think about the fact that different forms of madness manifest, and in different intervals. The taint destabalizes you, but your own mental states and personal stressers will determine the way in which you succumb to that disposition.

 

so, it can be said that the taint will accelerate the Maturation of your mental instabilities and/or shortcomings.

Do i smell a thesis?

[Sharaman]

The Pattern wanted the Taint to occur because the only way the DR would be able to combat the GLoD and remove the Bore without leaving a "scar" would be if he had the knowledge of at least two lifetimes worth.

So, there you have your thesis.

[MasterAblar]

The Pattern wanted the Taint to occur because the only way the DR would be able to combat the GLoD and remove the Bore without leaving a "scar" would be if he had the knowledge of at least two lifetimes worth.

So, there you have your thesis.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually the case. If I remember correctly didn't Sammael attack the place where the access keys for the CK were being built by happenstance (in other words he had no idea that they were being built there)? If he just attacked there by chance, could that not be the pattern forcing LTT's incomplete plan into action. Afterall if the access keys had not been lost, LTT would not have acted, as he respected the hall's decision to go with LPD's plan instead of his even if he didn't agree.

[Guest eryoshimura]

What do you think would happen if Rand and co. used balefire on the Bore?

[Luckers]

The destruction of the Wheel of Time.

[Dream]

...

My wondering has always been, that if the taint weren't a factor, and there were no schizophrenic outcomes - and Rand was totally sane - would he still end up having access to those memories somehow down the line, or does it run along the lines that Rand would just be the incarnation of the Dragon soul, spun out like a hero of the horn with only the memories from his present life, for example.

...

Rand regaining his memories was Foretold by the Borderlanders. Whether the insanity assisted or hindered, caused or was the result of, this process is uncertain. What we do know is that the Taint is not required.

[jwood01]

 

Alternately it could have been blood memory--Rand as Aiel exposed to Treesinging.

 

Interesting. I just reached the part of tGH where Rand and Lanfear see the Choeden Kal, and Rand mumbles the Aiel battle song.

[Luckers]

...

My wondering has always been, that if the taint weren't a factor, and there were no schizophrenic outcomes - and Rand was totally sane - would he still end up having access to those memories somehow down the line, or does it run along the lines that Rand would just be the incarnation of the Dragon soul, spun out like a hero of the horn with only the memories from his present life, for example.

...

Rand regaining his memories was Foretold by the Borderlanders. Whether the insanity assisted or hindered, caused or was the result of, this process is uncertain. What we do know is that the Taint is not required.

 

The Taint it not required for any form of insanity.

[Terez]

I don't think that's what he's implying. More that the taint isn't required for memory seepage (as per Graendal's patients).

[Mats Spare Hat]

At one point I also wondered if it was a specific trait of the Dragon soul that they, the various incarnations thereof, would always have that generational memory of past lives...whether induced by a taint-style insanity, or for instance an epiphany moment, like a veins of gold/grandiose integration scene.

 

As though that trait of acquired generational memory was a hallmark of what it was that made the Dragon, the Dragon.