The Towers of Midnight

[Champion]

ToM glossary states:

Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

 

1.)Why thirteen? Does thirteen have any reference to the thirteen chosen?

2.)Could it be the compliment to the white tower from another age; perhaps the AoL?

3.)Why black? Is there any relation to Black Tower under current construction in Andor?

4.)Seanchan's history was one of constant upheaval due to the politics of ruling AS that inhabited the lands. We also know the ToM existed before Hawkwing's descendants overthrew the ruling AS.

5.)Why do the Seanchan leave it uninhabited if it was such a "center of military might?"

6.)"Right that which is wrong?" Any clues what could be so wrong for the Seanchan?

7.)It seems the Seanchan really fear the ToM, or the ToM are sacred to them if they only go to the ToM in "dire need." Any ideas?

8.)Why say so little about the ToM, yet name the thirteenth book in the WoT series with a structure of thirteen towers, "Towers of Midnight" and then illustrate the Tower of Ghenjei on the front cover?

 

I am curious how the ToM fit with what we all know up to this point.

[roandufeu]

Hi Mah' alleinir, I see we're both new to this business!

 

I always thought that the Towers of Midnight referred to in the title of ToM were the Forsaken and not the towers in Seanchan. I guess I thought this because of Egwene's dream near the beginning which seemed to represent what had happened to the Forsaken - the thirteen towers that were one by one toppling while the others grew taller and taller, one falling but then growing back to be the tallest of all (Ishamael dying and being reborn as Moridin), until there were only six left (the number of Forsaken at the time).

 

I feel as if they're not related to the current white / black towers at all but that could just be me.

 

Good point with 5)! As for 'the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."', I think this could refer to RJ's plans (which will now not happen) to write outrigger novels set after the main Wheel of Time series. I remember reading somewhere that one of these books would be about Mat and Tuon returning to Seanchan to sort it all out after Semirhage's machinations. Also RJ said that the main plot of the books would never go to Seanchan so it seems unlikely it refers to anything that's going to happen in AMoL :(

 

Hope this is useful.

[Champion]

Thanks Roan du Feu.

 

I have followed RJ since book one, and have been out of the WoT scene for some time, preferring to lurk on occasion. It is nice to have a response. Thanks.

 

I am aware of RJ not spending time in Seanchan which makes me even more curious about the ToM and how they don't quite fit within the current plont line unless by metaphor. Perhaps it was meant to be a foundation for later novels as you mentioned, but it leave many lose ends. And, I had not considered Egwen's dream as a metaphor which adds credence to there being a connection between the ToM and the Forsaken with question number 1.

 

The strategy of putting the description of the ToM in the glossary was quite a hook with tasty bate and many implications. Does anyone recall any mention of the ToM other than in the glossary?

[Southpaw89]

Roan is correct and it's pretty much been confirmed by Brandon that the Towers refer to the 13 Chosen and the reason some crumble in the dream is that they represent the deaths of the Chosen members and the resurrections are the ones that regrow (with Moridin's growing highest as his power grows).

[Champion]

Roan is correct and it's pretty much been confirmed by Brandon that the Towers refer to the 13 Chosen and the reason some crumble in the dream is that they represent the deaths of the Chosen members and the resurrections are the ones that regrow (with Moridin's growing highest as his power grows).

 

Thanks Southpaw89, I agree Egwen's dream is relevant, however, the glossary clearly states that the ToM are a structure. "Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan." And, this dream does nothing to explain the time of dire need, the Imperial family will have to return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong." Surely, there is more to this then Egwen's dream.

[Leyrann]

We have no evidence the towers in Egwene's dream are the Towers of Midnight. These could be totally different things. Or has BS said they are the same?

[Southpaw89]

BS confirmed that they have multiple meanings. Yes, it could mean the Seanchan fortress but look at the title of the book. It's not, The Towers of Midnight. It's, Towers of Midnight and BS said that what he had in mind naming the book was in particular, Egwene's dream. But it isn't wrong to think of it as also meaning the Seanchan fortress but remember, they don't have much relevance in the series anyway while the Forsaken do. And no worries, I'm not bashing anyone who said it means the Seanchan fortress because it's easy to think that but it's more aimed at Egwene's dream :)

[OptimusPrime]

I think its fair to say its more the dream than anything else, I mean we're getting to the endgame and the Forsaken-the best ones-are becoming important again. It seems to me the book titles almost always have more than one meaning, the later ones at least. The Seanchan fortress isnt really relevent, but as a metaphor for the Forsaken the title rocks IMO. About time they got a book title devoted to them!

[Champion]

BS confirmed that they have multiple meanings.

 

If you were able to get a confirmation from BS, that certainly helps. And, the point about not including "The" in the title adds credence to your argument. I agree Drekka Mort, I like this title also, I think it fits, and it intrigues with ominous implication. I hadn't made an assertion either way, and was curious how others have interpreted the meaning. Nice to have input.

 

It will be interesting to learn what "dire need" drives the Imperial family. And, their version of "wrong" could be quite interesting indeed.

[Leyrann]

About time they got a book title devoted to them!

 

Some people think Lord of Chaos is not a name for the DO, but for Demandred. Then he would already have gotten one. But what other meanings have the book titles? I think only TEotW, TGH, TDR, (LoC), ACoS and WH have a meaning. And now ToM. But these books are not the latter ones. And they only have one meaning. Except maybe WH

 

PS. Maybe not everyone knows, it also took me some time, but Winter's Heart is a name for the DO. And the second meaning could be that it is winter.

[Finnssss22]

As some have already mentioned, it refers to both the 13 Forsaken and the Towers in Seanchan or more specifically, what those towers represent, the Consolidation.

[OptimusPrime]

About time they got a book title devoted to them!

 

Some people think Lord of Chaos is not a name for the DO, but for Demandred. Then he would already have gotten one. But what other meanings have the book titles? I think only TEotW, TGH, TDR, (LoC), ACoS and WH have a meaning. And now ToM. But these books are not the latter ones. And they only have one meaning. Except maybe WH

 

PS. Maybe not everyone knows, it also took me some time, but Winter's Heart is a name for the DO. And the second meaning could be that it is winter.

 

I mean the Forsaken as a whole. Lord of Chaos meaning Demandred could be an interesting one if we find out just what hes been doing all this time. Winters Heart, I think might also refer to Shaidar, or even better, Moridin, because in the passage at the start it says winters heart rides a black horse called Death (death being capitalized). As for Crown of Swords, I think that pretty much refers to Rands whole idea of uniting via conquest. Knife of Dreams I thought might refer to Slayer, but more to do with the beginning of Rands change of heart; up til then hes had trouble channeling, but then he loses a hand, which means his two favored methods of being a weapon dont work as well anymore.

 

The early books seem straightforward in their titles but after (and probably incuding) Lord of Chaos there are multiple interpretations to each IMO. The first few relate to the Light and its assets (the Eye, the Horn, Rand himself) then theres the Shadow Rising and Lord of Chaos are about the Shadows plans (Fires of Heaven makes me think balefire, but not sure how else it fits). Then we get Path of Daggers, Crown of Swords, Knife of Dreams-reminds me of Rands arc, even if he isnt the focus of all of them. Winters Heart as I said reminds me of Moridin. Then you have the ones with titles referring to night falling-Crossroads of Twilight, Towers of Midnight. Cant really remember much of what happens in Crossroads tbh.

 

It wouldnt surprise me if the different themed book names have significant subplots progressing in them. Id love to do a proper study of them all with regard to the book titles and exactly what plots move forward in each, but I dont have all the books and Im not that organized haha

[Leyrann]

Cant really remember much of what happens in Crossroads tbh.

 

Does there happen anything in CoT?

 

I mean, I didn't read much in CoT, but the Cleansing, the attack on Elayne (with Doilin Mellar/Daved Hanlon), and Mat's escape of Ebou Dar happen in WH, while the next important things (the end of the siege of Caemlin, Malden, Rand losing a hand, Mat escaping Altara, the attack on the mansion) all happen in KoD. The only important thing (if it is important) in CoT (if it is CoT) is the start of the siege of Caemlin. And Egwene getting captured.

 

PS Faile was captured in PoD already.

[ClubCaved]

ToM glossary states:

Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

 

1.)Why thirteen? Does thirteen have any reference to the thirteen chosen?

2.)Could it be the compliment to the white tower from another age; perhaps the AoL?

3.)Why black? Is there any relation to Black Tower under current construction in Andor?

4.)Seanchan's history was one of constant upheaval due to the politics of ruling AS that inhabited the lands. We also know the ToM existed before Hawkwing's descendants overthrew the ruling AS.

5.)Why do the Seanchan leave it uninhabited if it was such a "center of military might?"

6.)"Right that which is wrong?" Any clues what could be so wrong for the Seanchan?

7.)It seems the Seanchan really fear the ToM, or the ToM are sacred to them if they only go to the ToM in "dire need." Any ideas?

8.)Why say so little about the ToM, yet name the thirteenth book in the WoT series with a structure of thirteen towers, "Towers of Midnight" and then illustrate the Tower of Ghenjei on the front cover?

 

I am curious how the ToM fit with what we all know up to this point.

 

Speaking just of the Seanchan TOM, if the outrigger novels had been/might on a wild chance be written, I guess they would be where the Empress (MSLF) and Mat would have their main base as they retake the Empire. As for righting that which is wrong, to me it's obvious that chaining channellers would cease.

[OptimusPrime]

ToM glossary states:

Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

 

1.)Why thirteen? Does thirteen have any reference to the thirteen chosen?

2.)Could it be the compliment to the white tower from another age; perhaps the AoL?

3.)Why black? Is there any relation to Black Tower under current construction in Andor?

4.)Seanchan's history was one of constant upheaval due to the politics of ruling AS that inhabited the lands. We also know the ToM existed before Hawkwing's descendants overthrew the ruling AS.

5.)Why do the Seanchan leave it uninhabited if it was such a "center of military might?"

6.)"Right that which is wrong?" Any clues what could be so wrong for the Seanchan?

7.)It seems the Seanchan really fear the ToM, or the ToM are sacred to them if they only go to the ToM in "dire need." Any ideas?

8.)Why say so little about the ToM, yet name the thirteenth book in the WoT series with a structure of thirteen towers, "Towers of Midnight" and then illustrate the Tower of Ghenjei on the front cover?

 

I am curious how the ToM fit with what we all know up to this point.

 

Speaking just of the Seanchan TOM, if the outrigger novels had been/might on a wild chance be written, I guess they would be where the Empress (MSLF) and Mat would have their main base as they retake the Empire. As for righting that which is wrong, to me it's obvious that chaining channellers would cease.

 

I thought it would have something to do with channellers too

[Leyrann]

ToM glossary states:

Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

 

1.)Why thirteen? Does thirteen have any reference to the thirteen chosen?

2.)Could it be the compliment to the white tower from another age; perhaps the AoL?

3.)Why black? Is there any relation to Black Tower under current construction in Andor?

4.)Seanchan's history was one of constant upheaval due to the politics of ruling AS that inhabited the lands. We also know the ToM existed before Hawkwing's descendants overthrew the ruling AS.

5.)Why do the Seanchan leave it uninhabited if it was such a "center of military might?"

6.)"Right that which is wrong?" Any clues what could be so wrong for the Seanchan?

7.)It seems the Seanchan really fear the ToM, or the ToM are sacred to them if they only go to the ToM in "dire need." Any ideas?

8.)Why say so little about the ToM, yet name the thirteenth book in the WoT series with a structure of thirteen towers, "Towers of Midnight" and then illustrate the Tower of Ghenjei on the front cover?

 

I am curious how the ToM fit with what we all know up to this point.

 

Speaking just of the Seanchan TOM, if the outrigger novels had been/might on a wild chance be written, I guess they would be where the Empress (MSLF) and Mat would have their main base as they retake the Empire. As for righting that which is wrong, to me it's obvious that chaining channellers would cease.

 

I thought it would have something to do with channellers too

 

As I did. No idea why I didn't post it the last time I read this thread.

[OptimusPrime]

ToM glossary states:

Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

 

1.)Why thirteen? Does thirteen have any reference to the thirteen chosen?

2.)Could it be the compliment to the white tower from another age; perhaps the AoL?

3.)Why black? Is there any relation to Black Tower under current construction in Andor?

4.)Seanchan's history was one of constant upheaval due to the politics of ruling AS that inhabited the lands. We also know the ToM existed before Hawkwing's descendants overthrew the ruling AS.

5.)Why do the Seanchan leave it uninhabited if it was such a "center of military might?"

6.)"Right that which is wrong?" Any clues what could be so wrong for the Seanchan?

7.)It seems the Seanchan really fear the ToM, or the ToM are sacred to them if they only go to the ToM in "dire need." Any ideas?

8.)Why say so little about the ToM, yet name the thirteenth book in the WoT series with a structure of thirteen towers, "Towers of Midnight" and then illustrate the Tower of Ghenjei on the front cover?

 

I am curious how the ToM fit with what we all know up to this point.

 

Speaking just of the Seanchan TOM, if the outrigger novels had been/might on a wild chance be written, I guess they would be where the Empress (MSLF) and Mat would have their main base as they retake the Empire. As for righting that which is wrong, to me it's obvious that chaining channellers would cease.

 

I thought it would have something to do with channellers too

 

As I did. No idea why I didn't post it the last time I read this thread.

 

Hehe. Its become one of those numbers. 13 Forsaken, ritualistic 13 Aes Sedai to overpower any man, 13 Towers, maximum circle of 13 without a man, 13x13...

 

I want Rand to get 13x13'd! Or even better, Moridin starts acting like Rand because of the link, and then has HIMSELF 13x13'd to get back to normal. That'd be cool.

 

...

 

Ok Rand getting the treatment would be better

[Luckers]

I don't know if its significant, but we can note that the book was named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'The Towers of Midnight'.

 

The main point of the name definately seems to be the Forsaken.

[Louise]

I don't know if its significant, but we can note that the book was named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'The Towers of Midnight'.The main point of the name definately seems to be the Forsaken.

I agree but whats got me thinkng is the fact that the Seanchan ToM were described. There must be something important there. I could be wrong but I don't recall them ever being mentioned before... so why put it in the glossary???

[mackoY-kun]

I think I'm being really stupid and dense here but, the first time I saw the book with it's cover, I immediately thought, "Okay the Towers of Midnight is referring to the Towers in the A/Eelfinn World". You know, cause there are actually two towers in that twilight world. One for the A one for the E. And other that those towers, there is nothing else in the book I consider to be of much more subject. And I can't seem to make myself buy that Forsaken = Towers of Midnight.

[Finnssss22]

I don't know if its significant, but we can note that the book was named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'The Towers of Midnight'.The main point of the name definately seems to be the Forsaken.

I agree but whats got me thinkng is the fact that the Seanchan ToM were described. There must be something important there. I could be wrong but I don't recall them ever being mentioned before... so why put it in the glossary???

 

 

Most likely because the Seanchan Towers of Midnight was the site of the final Consolidation of that continent and that concept runs parallel with what Rand was trying to do through tGS and ToM.

Rand is setting up the FoM to serve the same purpose on this continent imo.

[Louise]

I don't know if its significant, but we can note that the book was named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'The Towers of Midnight'.The main point of the name definately seems to be the Forsaken.

I agree but whats got me thinkng is the fact that the Seanchan ToM were described. There must be something important there. I could be wrong but I don't recall them ever being mentioned before... so why put it in the glossary???

 

 

Most likely because the Seanchan Towers of Midnight was the site of the final Consolidation of that continent and that concept runs parallel with what Rand was trying to do through tGS and ToM.

Rand is setting up the FoM to serve the same purpose on this continent imo.

 

True, makes more sense when you put it like that.

 

RJ has caused me to develop a habit of reading way too much into all things slightly odd. Which is not really a bad thing, but sometimes the answer is not complex at all and I have endless trouble seeing those ones.

[Finnssss22]

I don't know if its significant, but we can note that the book was named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'The Towers of Midnight'.The main point of the name definately seems to be the Forsaken.

I agree but whats got me thinkng is the fact that the Seanchan ToM were described. There must be something important there. I could be wrong but I don't recall them ever being mentioned before... so why put it in the glossary???

 

 

Most likely because the Seanchan Towers of Midnight was the site of the final Consolidation of that continent and that concept runs parallel with what Rand was trying to do through tGS and ToM.

Rand is setting up the FoM to serve the same purpose on this continent imo.

 

True, makes more sense when you put it like that.

 

RJ has caused me to develop a habit of reading way too much into all things slightly odd. Which is not really a bad thing, but sometimes the answer is not complex at all and I have endless trouble seeing those ones.

 

 

Also have to remember that the decision to break aMoL into 3 books was made after RJ's passing, so it was BS that named tGS and ToM.

I believe there's a quote around somewhere with BS saying something along the lines of the name ToM just made sense on many different levels.

And he was right, because up and till BS came out and said that the name had multiple meanings and concepts involved, there were 3-4 different arguments over its meaning.

[Taelin]

The dark prophecy at the end of ToM refers to the Midnight Towers.

[s.shinner]

I am fairly sure I remember reading that the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan were the site where they betrayed the AS who invented the a'dam and first made here damane. So, I would assume that the wrong to be righted is freeing all the channellers.

I think this may well happen in aMoL - remember that although RJ said the main plot would never move to Seanchan, we have been taken there briefly before.