The Eye

[Dastion]

There is no 'right' answer, at this point it's just speculation. But I feel that there were likely better ways to protect something (i.e. the weave around Callendor) than going through the trouble they did to get pure Saidin. And as little as there was there, the logic of it being 'an extra power source' seems faulty as there isn't any purpose it could have been used for that tainted saidin couldn't have accomplished.

 

But, as I said, it's all speculation. I do not assume I am correct, I'm just offering a thought. As Paralis says, it helps to humanize Rand a bit when you realize what you perceived as slight signs of madness are just the intense strain he's been under.

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

this is actually all very interesting.

 

i think one thing that people haven't considered(or maybe i just missed it) is the fact that the horn of valere was ALSO at the Eye. I'm just wondering if the Horn itself was used in the creation of that pure saidin(maybe it was the KEY to purifying saidin).

 

We know the Horn itself is EXCEPTIONALLY powerful(one of the few items that can transcend Ages) and that it WAS NOT made by AoL AS(at least as far as i remember). Could the saidin at the eye be some sort of 'dimensional transporter'? stay with me here.

 

we know that rand is essentially a walking ball of joy(trees grow, clouds part, etc whenever he AND ONLY HE is around).

 

could using the Eye saidin have caused his brain to 'revert' back to a 'template' of him(not rand himself, rather the soul) from another time where he WASN'T infected by the taint. essentially, the saidin fundamentally alters his physical brain matter.

 

this would explain why he isn't insane even when nynaeve Delves for signs of Taint. Anytime the taint affects his brain, the saidin causes it to revert to a 'good version'. This could possibly explain why he hears LT so very soon after the Eye - yes Semirhage(?) said it was a sign of madness, but it happened to Rand EXTREMELY quickly.

 

this also explains why the land heals itself, it simple returns to a untainted version whenever he is around.

[Kahsm]

this is actually all very interesting.

 

i think one thing that people haven't considered(or maybe i just missed it) is the fact that the horn of valere was ALSO at the Eye. I'm just wondering if the Horn itself was used in the creation of that pure saidin(maybe it was the KEY to purifying saidin).

 

We know the Horn itself is EXCEPTIONALLY powerful(one of the few items that can transcend Ages) and that it WAS NOT made by AoL AS(at least as far as i remember). Could the saidin at the eye be some sort of 'dimensional transporter'? stay with me here.

 

we know that rand is essentially a walking ball of joy(trees grow, clouds part, etc whenever he AND ONLY HE is around).

 

could using the Eye saidin have caused his brain to 'revert' back to a 'template' of him(not rand himself, rather the soul) from another time where he WASN'T infected by the taint. essentially, the saidin fundamentally alters his physical brain matter.

 

this would explain why he isn't insane even when nynaeve Delves for signs of Taint. Anytime the taint affects his brain, the saidin causes it to revert to a 'good version'. This could possibly explain why he hears LT so very soon after the Eye - yes Semirhage(?) said it was a sign of madness, but it happened to Rand EXTREMELY quickly.

 

this also explains why the land heals itself, it simple returns to a untainted version whenever he is around.

 

Hrm, I'm usually up for a good crazy theory, but I can't get this one to stick to the wall for me.

 

First, because the taint is still in Rand's mind, it's just covered by the gold stuff that we assume protects him from the taint. Also, BS told Luckers that LTT was also "one with the land" so he also had the land healing powers. You could say LTT had a different source of the stuff, but that seems like an enormous stretch. Here's the quote because a lot of people think it's special to Rand:

WoTLuckers: Was LTT one with the land like Rand is?

Brandon: "The Dragon is one with the land...so the answer is yes."

He went on to say that it says the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn, making the point that it most definitely applied to LTT.

 

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

Soni: So the Eye of the World is a well, right?

RJ: [pauses] Yes and no. It's in the same class of objects as a well, but on a different scale.

Soni: So could it be refilled by a male channeler?

RJ: No. Remember, lots of Aes Sedai died to make it.

Soni: To keep it pure.

RJ: That, among other things. Look, a normal well is like this water glass. [he gestures] The Eye is like a liquid nitrogen canister.

Soni: So are wells made with the opposite half of the power that they were meant to contain, like Rand did at Shadar Logoth.

RJ: [sly smile] No, they don't work like that.

[Mats Spare Hat]

See I was of the mind that the AS who created the Eye used a similar sort of filter technique, that's just what I'm calling it, like Rand & Nynaeve put together using the CK...Except the eye-makers didn't have the CK available, so the amount of power necessary to pull off cleansed saidin would have more than likely torched their brain-pans, so to speak?

 

As for why the Horn, Banner & Seal, were contained within, I chalk it up to foretelling, maybe somebody had a dream about what would go down. *shrug

 

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

Rand's cleansing strategy has nothing to do with the amount of power being used - actually, it did, but its more of a technicality.

 

Shadar Logoth(sp?) was the key. the Taint and the SL Evil simply destroyed each other...THAT is what removed the taint.

 

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

I just simply don't buy the Horn being there just to be protected.

 

The question is HOW did they cleanse the taint? Did the AoL AS not realize that that was something that should have been preserved? Even if the original method sucks - leaving your knowledge behind is one of the core principles of humanity.

[Mats Spare Hat]

As to how the AOL AS cleansed the taint, it could very well be they ended up using similar reasoning & technique Rand did. Obviously we don't get to know for sure, but it's not really that far fetched if you consider Rand having LTT's thoughts/memories/ability at the point where all of Saidein is cleansed.

 

To me the amount of power used does matter, because it goes to reason that the AS needed sufficient well, power, in order to filter the taint, from Saidin. I can buy into the cancelling out of Taint Evil with SG Evil, but it kind of runs in a process? Not sure if that wording makes sense

 

Tainted Saiden + Requisite Force/Power to boil off/remoive/filter Taint => Pure Saiden & Taint Removed...So the Taint needs somewhere to go, which as mentioned in the case of Rand, it ends up getting waxed by the evil of Shadar Logoth.

 

In the case of the AOL AS, having no SG Evil or force/presence/whatever around to cancel that removed taint, the Taint could more than likely have been drawn into those AS themselves. Considering the amount of Pure Saidin at the Eye, it's not so hard to believe that the amount of Taint, which had been removed, is what might have killed them all.

 

And obviously they all die, so the knowledge of whatever technique is lost, but heck a whole boatload of knowledge is lost in the Breaking...Besides, what's to say those AS could have predicted what they were going to do would kill every single last one of them in the doing of the deed.

[jsbrads]

Okay, there was a lot I didn't understand there

 

I don't know why but I thought it was Green man who brought spring...

 

The Forsaken could have just messed with Eye to take it from Rand, not for any personal benefit or more likely a well (certainly one that size) would be just like having a saangreal, namely one channels through it and draws more power than they could unaided.

 

Yeah I think the well was for Rand to blast the seals with balefire before they starting cracking and letting out Forsaken, he got there a little late. Had he blasted the seals with clean saidin balefire they would have strengthened until he could figure out how to solve the problem more permanently, without having to fight Forsaken left a right. then he figures out how to seal bore permanently, goes to Shayol ghul for a weekend battle royale, smashes the seals and gets to fixing it all and done before 11:30am on Sunday (Carmageddon reference).

What! A Carmageddon reference! That game kicked *'s

Anyway on topic...confused if joking?

 

That was carmagedon Los Angeles 2011 reference, never heard of a game

[Kahsm]

As to how the AOL AS cleansed the taint, it could very well be they ended up using similar reasoning & technique Rand did. Obviously we don't get to know for sure, but it's not really that far fetched if you consider Rand having LTT's thoughts/memories/ability at the point where all of Saidein is cleansed.

 

To me the amount of power used does matter, because it goes to reason that the AS needed sufficient well, power, in order to filter the taint, from Saidin. I can buy into the cancelling out of Taint Evil with SG Evil, but it kind of runs in a process? Not sure if that wording makes sense

 

Tainted Saiden + Requisite Force/Power to boil off/remoive/filter Taint => Pure Saiden & Taint Removed...So the Taint needs somewhere to go, which as mentioned in the case of Rand, it ends up getting waxed by the evil of Shadar Logoth.

 

In the case of the AOL AS, having no SG Evil or force/presence/whatever around to cancel that removed taint, the Taint could more than likely have been drawn into those AS themselves. Considering the amount of Pure Saidin at the Eye, it's not so hard to believe that the amount of Taint, which had been removed, is what might have killed them all.

 

And obviously they all die, so the knowledge of whatever technique is lost, but heck a whole boatload of knowledge is lost in the Breaking...Besides, what's to say those AS could have predicted what they were going to do would kill every single last one of them in the doing of the deed.

 

This is originally more like what I pictured. However, we know the eye is not just pure saidin, there is something else to it. That something else might be the gold stuff in Rand's brain. That's the inoculation. I could only speculate how they made it.

[Hybrid]

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

"Among other things" may refer to the fact that they had to create a massive material reservoir of saidin.

[Kahsm]

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

"Among other things" may refer to the fact that they had to create a massive material reservoir of saidin.

 

Did you read the original quote too? It doesn't read that way to me. The flow seems to be:

"it's a well right?"

"Kinda"

"So you can refill it"

"No, lots died to make it"

"But that was to keep it pure, [you don't need to do that anymore]"

"They did more to the saidin than that"

 

So you're suggesting AOT (to steal Lucker's BUT idea) includes putting the saidin into it's physical essence form? I guess I figred that was just a bi-product of "condensing" it into liquid form (like in nitrogen canisters).

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

As to how the AOL AS cleansed the taint, it could very well be they ended up using similar reasoning & technique Rand did. Obviously we don't get to know for sure, but it's not really that far fetched if you consider Rand having LTT's thoughts/memories/ability at the point where all of Saidein is cleansed.

 

if they used Rand's technique, what was the counter-force to the taint? Shadar Logoth obviously wasn't available during the AoL.

[Mats Spare Hat]

As to how the AOL AS cleansed the taint, it could very well be they ended up using similar reasoning & technique Rand did. Obviously we don't get to know for sure, but it's not really that far fetched if you consider Rand having LTT's thoughts/memories/ability at the point where all of Saidein is cleansed.

 

if they used Rand's technique, what was the counter-force to the taint? Shadar Logoth obviously wasn't available during the AoL.

 

 

Gotta read the whole post there chief

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

you're going to have to elaborate there....

[Hybrid]

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

"Among other things" may refer to the fact that they had to create a massive material reservoir of saidin.

 

Did you read the original quote too? It doesn't read that way to me. The flow seems to be:

"it's a well right?"

"Kinda"

"So you can refill it"

"No, lots died to make it"

"But that was to keep it pure, [you don't need to do that anymore]"

"They did more to the saidin than that"

 

So you're suggesting AOT (to steal Lucker's BUT idea) includes putting the saidin into it's physical essence form? I guess I figred that was just a bi-product of "condensing" it into liquid form (like in nitrogen canisters).

 

I missed the original quote, but reading it doesn't really change my view.

 

I take the liquid nitrogen container analogy to mean altering saidin from its original form -- I can't think of any other important intrinsic differences between a liquid nitrogen container and a glass of water. I'm just not calling this "condensation," since in its natural form saidin isn't a gas.

[Mats Spare Hat]

you're going to have to elaborate there....

 

 

Sure, sure. Later on, in the same post of mine you had quoted, I brought up that...

 

"In the case of the AOL AS, having no SG Evil or force/presence/whatever around to cancel that removed taint, the Taint could more than likely have been drawn into those AS themselves. Considering the amount of Pure Saidin at the Eye, it's not so hard to believe that the amount of Taint, which had been removed, is what might have killed them all."

[Kahsm]

Also, in a question to RJ about the Eye, it was stated that the Aes Sedai who made it all died to "make it pure" and RJ replied with, "among other things". So there are "other things" that the eye did that are man-made and worth dying for, not just the bi-product of the horn being there. Inoculation from the taint for a bunch of MCs would probably be worth dying for.

 

"Among other things" may refer to the fact that they had to create a massive material reservoir of saidin.

 

Did you read the original quote too? It doesn't read that way to me. The flow seems to be:

"it's a well right?"

"Kinda"

"So you can refill it"

"No, lots died to make it"

"But that was to keep it pure, [you don't need to do that anymore]"

"They did more to the saidin than that"

 

So you're suggesting AOT (to steal Lucker's BUT idea) includes putting the saidin into it's physical essence form? I guess I figred that was just a bi-product of "condensing" it into liquid form (like in nitrogen canisters).

 

I missed the original quote, but reading it doesn't really change my view.

 

I take the liquid nitrogen container analogy to mean altering saidin from its original form -- I can't think of any other important intrinsic differences between a liquid nitrogen container and a glass of water. I'm just not calling this "condensation," since in its natural form saidin isn't a gas.

 

I take it that the quote references the 'natural' states in a typical environment. So a glass of water is at rest in it's usual state, liquid nitrogen is not. It's highly condensed from it's natural form, and the only way to keep it that way is to keep it extremely cold or under high pressure. So the eye (the 'well') needs to be much more complex than just a glass, it needs to maintain the changed state of the saidin.

 

Notice he says the Eye is like a "nitrogen canister". So it's referring to the more complex storage method for this special (I say condensed) form of saidin.

 

The pool isn't really a liquid, it's something liquid-ish, and it's visible to non channelers. It seems logical to think this is the state Saidin takes when condensed. Usually it's invisible to non channies and doesn't 'collect' like that (similar to a gas).

[Hybrid]

That's what I said, except that you're taking the liquid nitrogen canister metaphor literally. I interpret it far more loosely -- based on the books, it's pretty clear that saidin is not a gas, so the term condensation doesn't apply.

[WhiskyJack]

I never believed Saidin to be an actual stuff so pool or well is just odd. That said, eye had too much Saidin in small space. That's my best understanding. I am guessing we can compare this to so called well Cadsuane had. Per unit volume, Eye had more Saidin.

[Kahsm]

That's what I said, except that you're taking the liquid nitrogen canister metaphor literally. I interpret it far more loosely -- based on the books, it's pretty clear that saidin is not a gas, so the term condensation doesn't apply.

 

I never said it was a gas or is even like a gas. I said it has some properties similar to a gas. The stuff in the pool has properties similar to a liquid, so I don't think the simile that Jordan decided to use need be so loosely applied.

 

And you can condense anything. I didn't mean condensation as in humidity turning to water droplets on cold dust particles. I mean the saidin was squeezed into the well (eye).

 

Nyn and Cads would pour saidair into their wells. Saidin was squeezed into the Eye, and squished saidin looks like that. Of course it was also filtered, but the question is what is what other things is that filtering among. The squeeze for one, I guess. But also a taint inoculation? Or maybe that's just a by-product of the filtering.

[Dastion]

I wasn't even aware of Jordan's comment about 'something else' being done to the Saidin when I came up with the incolucation theory. That just sorta strengthens it.

 

So, of the two things done:

 

1) Purifying Saidin

As it's been said, I'm pretty sure they did this by drawing the taint into themselves. But, that brings up the question of how did they prevent themselves going mad? If you have one person leading a huge circle and they suddenly go crazy, that's going to hamper your efforts.

 

It likely had to do with heavy compulsion placed on everyone to control their actions and force them to give up control of the circle or to kill themselves off in some manner.

 

2) The 'something else'

I believe this to be some sort of inoculation versus the taint, it's what made The Eye so important and worth the cost of their lives. Otherwise, the amount of the power in The Eye is the merest drop in the bucket compared to the amount of tainted power rand has wielded, grain of sand next to a mountain. But, if that grain of sand contained some sort of inoculation to prevent the taint, it is important.

 

How was it done? I'm not sure, but then... I'm not sure how Aes Sedai managed to link the shield around callendor to the soul of a dead man either. My best guess is that the inoculation is a form of compulsion, or perhaps the reverse. The Aes Sedai of the time studied the taint and how it infected male channelers and devised a way to provide a similar protection via channeling Saidin. However, Saidin being tainted prevented the application and thus the need to cleanse Saidin and also the reason it wasn't deemed a mass cure. Hundreds of Aes Sedai male and female dying to inoculate one or two men while Saidin remained tainted for everyone else isn't a feasible cure... but if you know the Dragon will one day be reborn it would be worth it to protect him so he stands a better chance.

[jsbrads]

my theory provides for the purpose of the eye without incorporating any complex metaphysical "inoculations"

 

Pure Eye Saidin provided for a balefire blast at seal (seals break because of taint/corruption and seals are strengthened by any force brought to bear (if that force brings more taint into the seal the costs outweigh the benefits [potentially]))

 

And the people would go insane eventually, with the huge influx of taint from cleaning the saidin for the well, people may have gone insane in days or weeks (compare to men who took years or months)

[Kahsm]

my theory provides for the purpose of the eye without incorporating any complex metaphysical "inoculations"

 

Pure Eye Saidin provided for a balefire blast at seal (seals break because of taint/corruption and seals are strengthened by any force brought to bear (if that force brings more taint into the seal the costs outweigh the benefits [potentially]))

 

And the people would go insane eventually, with the huge influx of taint from cleaning the saidin for the well, people may have gone insane in days or weeks (compare to men who took years or months)

 

It's not really that complex... he's inoculated now. We just moved up the point in which he got it.

 

That said I'm a little unclear on your theory. You think it was supposed to be used to strengthen the seals?

[Dastion]

my theory provides for the purpose of the eye without incorporating any complex metaphysical "inoculations"

 

Pure Eye Saidin provided for a balefire blast at seal (seals break because of taint/corruption and seals are strengthened by any force brought to bear (if that force brings more taint into the seal the costs outweigh the benefits [potentially]))

 

And the people would go insane eventually, with the huge influx of taint from cleaning the saidin for the well, people may have gone insane in days or weeks (compare to men who took years or months)

 

 

It's not really complex or metaphysical, it need not even be explained precisely how it was done.

 

Why would they need clean saidin for balefiring the seals? Wouldn't Saidar haved worked just as well?

 

No, there is something else going on with the Seals. I don't think the Dark One wants the seals broken. There have been hints that show Lews Therin wanting the seals broken, and of Dark Friends fearing it (i.e. Taim and Asmodean). Rand even asked Herid Fel about whether or not there was a reason to break the seals, he received a cryptic response and was killed before he could tell Rand what he'd discovered. If anything, the Dark One seems to want to forgo the day as much as possible.

[jsbrads]

also an inoculation would have been counter-productive, he needed to go mad so the barrier between Rand and LTT could thin/break.

later he made the counter-madness effect while on the mountain top.

[Bluedust9]

Considering it's called the Eye of the World, I think the point is Somestha dying to create life there. You can't go to the Blight in TAR, but I imagine you could go to the Eye of the World there now. That'd put you in the eye of a hurricane. (Gathering Storm, oooh)