The epicness of Mazrim Taim

[Yosarian]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

it could be.

 

However, I think he's been a darkfriend all along. One of the big things the Dark One can give to any male channaler who swears alliegence to him is immunity to the taint, and Taim doesn't show any signs of insanity despite the fact he's been channeling for much longer then Rand. Also remember the black ajah were the ones who freed Taim from the Aes Sedi.

 

Edit: We do know that he is a darkfriend, in any case. Not only is there that "let the lord of chaos rule" quote, we also had a PoV from one of the darkfriend Asha'men that tried to kill Rand at one time, and we know that he was getting orders from both Taim and the Forsaken.

[ramsuszg]

I tend to favor the Taim is Moridin or a Dreadlord theories, but I've always been open to the idea that he's just NUTS.

 

If he's just a crazy and incredibly strong OP-wielder, everything still fits. The Forsaken have manipulated him as they saw fit over the past few years, and otherwise he's just been building his crazy army for Creator-knows-what purposes.

 

I'm not 100% sold on this theory (or even 75%, honestly), but I think we need to keep in mind that Taim may just be totally psychotic and have nothing to do with the struggle everyone else is committing themselves too.

 

Actually, that makes him scarier, IMO. Someone with that kind of power and influence, who has ZERO stakes in the upcoming battle, and just wants to kill people and pick up the pieces, is a truly scary villain indeed.

[Suttree]

Taim is Taim, but like LTT in Rand's head, there is another in Taim's. Maybe its a previous false dragon or someone else extremely powerful or whatever. That is why he seems insane, that is why he tells others "so called Aeil", that is why he says "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". He can't be Demondred or Moridin. SPOILER: read the prologue to find out more about him!

 

All those things can be explained by him being a minion of one of the forsaken. We know as of ToM he has had contact with them so no need for speculation about voices.

 

Btw hats off to Shiftedinsights for his post from a year ago above. Great call.

[Pinzarn]

Taim is the embodiment of the Dark One. Taim has been on screen only since the seals have weakened and the DO is able to touch Randland. My thoughts are that Taim in the early parts of the series is only mildly influenced by the touch of the DO, but as time passes and the seals weaken even more, the DO is able to possess Taim even more. Why else would the Foresaken completely leave the Black Tower to fester without any of their direct influence or corruption.

 

It has been pointed out with various other characters that RJ derived a lot of subject matter from mythical figures of the past. Well this fits right in with the aspect of Zeus going to Earth in human form.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Why else would the Foresaken completely leave the Black Tower to fester without any of their direct influence or corruption.

 

 

They haven't, in fact they have invested a great deal of time in the Black Tower.

 

Demandred, Aginor and Moridin have all had a hand in the Black Tower's corruption. Aginor especially, he was masquerading as an Asha'man. He was supposed to be at the Black Tower, but Rand's ta'veren picked him out in aCoS.

 

Moridin has a vested interest in the Black Tower, setting up the Dreamspike and using Asha'man as messengers.

 

Demandred also has an eye in on the Black Tower with him ordering the Dreadlord Asha'man.

also he knows Taim personally, he is most likely the one that helped set Taim up in the first place before Moridin's return to take over.

 

 

Mind you, this has nothing to do with your theory, I am not saying it is wrong.

 

Also, I suppose it depends what you consider "direct". Aginor was supposed to be like Mesaana until he got chosen. Moridin and Demandred may not actually "live" there, so to speak, but they have/had big influence on the Black Tower.

[Suttree]

Taim is the embodiment of the Dark One.

 

Actually that would be Shadar Haran. Per RJ he is the DO's "shadowy" avatar.

[Yosarian]

We also know that Taim was really, really good at compulsion even before we saw him in the series, back when he was still a false dragon. We've seen a few unscrupulous aes sedi who managed to cobble together a weak, ineffective type of compulsion on their own, but the real thing, full compulsion, is something that we've only seen the Forsaken manage to do. Granted all kinds of old talents are randomly resurfacing right now, but still, I'm guess Taim was taught by a Forsaken very, very early in the series.

 

This was before most of the Forsaken were even free of the bore, most were still trapped, so it was probably Ishy.

[SylvanFox]

We also know that Taim was really, really good at compulsion even before we saw him in the series, back when he was still a false dragon.

 

We do? I don't remember this. Do you know about when this was mentioned?

[Suttree]

We also know that Taim was really, really good at compulsion even before we saw him in the series, back when he was still a false dragon.

 

We do? I don't remember this. Do you know about when this was mentioned?

 

No we don't. Per RJ what Taim did to Bashere's men was not compulsion.

[The Wolf King]

Why did the WT have only one Forsaken watching over it while the BT had Moridin, Dem, Aginor, and Taim involved? I know the rest had some spies in the WT but I always thought it was strange that the DF Ashaman's that tried to kill Rand had the same orders from three different people. Isn't there even a line in there where the Ashaman thinks to himself that that was strange?

 

I'm on one of my re-reads and just started PoD so maybe I'll catch something I hadn't before on previous runs.

[Eichhörnchen]

Can't Mazrim Taim simply be the biological son of Ishamael through one of his tamed Aiel?

[Yosarian]

We also know that Taim was really, really good at compulsion even before we saw him in the series, back when he was still a false dragon.

 

We do? I don't remember this. Do you know about when this was mentioned?

We also know that Taim was really, really good at compulsion even before we saw him in the series, back when he was still a false dragon.

 

We do? I don't remember this. Do you know about when this was mentioned?

 

No we don't. Per RJ what Taim did to Bashere's men was not compulsion.

 

Wait. Really? That doesn't make sense.

 

Lord of Chaos, chapter 2. Taim talking to Bashere:

 

"They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servents? All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers."

 

How could that be anything but Compulsion? Taim took 4 soldiers who were trying to kill him, and he instantly and permanently turned them into people who wanted to do nothing but serve and obey. That doesn't sound like the kind of slow "have to get their trust first" compulsion Verin came up with, either; that sounds like the real thing.

[mb]

The "serve and obey" might have been only a guess; and maybe not necessarily serve/obey Taim.

 

Deflecting their weapons with Air might have been one possibility.

Some other possibilities::

-making a shield around himself

-a eruption of ground (probably a small one) near the soldiers

-injuring some nearby person

-and/or maybe Taim being a good persuader

 

Compulsion on 4 individuals at once I imagine would have required a lot of the One Power; probably more than what Taim would have had at that moment.

[Yosarian]

The "serve and obey" might have been only a guess; and maybe not necessarily Taim.

 

Deflecting their weapons with Air might have been one possibility.

Some other possibilities::

-making a shield around himself

-a eruption of ground (probably a small one) near the soldiers

-injuring some nearby person

-and/or maybe Taim being a good persuader

 

"Being a good persuader"? He did something to those soldiers so they would only want serve and obey for the rest of their lives.

 

I suppsoe it's possible someone else did it, but who else would be there when 4 soldiers came to Taim under a flag of parley?

 

Compulsion on 4 individuals at once I imagine would have required a lot of the One Power; probably more than what Taim would have had at that moment.

 

Taim is crazy strong.

 

From chapter 3 of the same book:

 

Taim held enough sadin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand could manage unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sign of of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand...

 

Already, the first time we meet him, Taim can hold almost as much of the One Power as RAND can (and he might have been holding back). That probably makes Taim the second most powerful non-Forsaken channeler in the world right now, behind only Rand himself, and probably actually puts Taim ahead of several of the weaker Forsaken. I don't think Compulsing 4 people at once is beyond him. (Or he could have just restrained them with air and then done Compulsion on them one by one, if he's just that sadistic.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Jan 20th, 2006

Robert Jordan's Blog: IT'S BEEN AWHILE (Verbatim)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

For kolp, Oberonus and NaClH2O, what Taim did to those Saldaeans wasn't Compulsion. They just don't have the intelligence left that would be needed for anything too exacting.

 

He probably just destroyed their minds. Similar to how Mesaana turned out (not TAR, but how she turned out, just a bit more functional). Taim is good at destroying things, very good. He doesn't use finesse, rather just brute strength. He probably literally crushed their minds.

[SylvanFox]

How could that be anything but Compulsion? Taim took 4 soldiers who were trying to kill him, and he instantly and permanently turned them into people who wanted to do nothing but serve and obey. That doesn't sound like the kind of slow "have to get their trust first" compulsion Verin came up with, either; that sounds like the real thing.

 

Liandrin's had some ability to coerce people with the one power, but she didn't know how to do full-on Compulsion. The White Tower considered it dangerously close, but that's not what it was. It could be that Taim has a similar ability. Or, as BBM says, he could have just destroyed their minds.

[Yosarian]

How could that be anything but Compulsion? Taim took 4 soldiers who were trying to kill him, and he instantly and permanently turned them into people who wanted to do nothing but serve and obey. That doesn't sound like the kind of slow "have to get their trust first" compulsion Verin came up with, either; that sounds like the real thing.

 

Liandrin's had some ability to coerce people with the one power, but she didn't know how to do full-on Compulsion. The White Tower considered it dangerously close, but that's not what it was. It could be that Taim has a similar ability. Or, as BBM says, he could have just destroyed their minds.

 

When I said " We've seen a few unscrupulous aes sedi who managed to cobble together a weak, ineffective type of compulsion on their own", Liandrin was part of what I meant. She couldn't make someone become a servile person for life; hers only worked if the person could convince themselves to do what she wanted. Hers was a little more effective then Verin's version, but it was still pretty limited.

[SylvanFox]

How could that be anything but Compulsion? Taim took 4 soldiers who were trying to kill him, and he instantly and permanently turned them into people who wanted to do nothing but serve and obey. That doesn't sound like the kind of slow "have to get their trust first" compulsion Verin came up with, either; that sounds like the real thing.

 

Liandrin's had some ability to coerce people with the one power, but she didn't know how to do full-on Compulsion. The White Tower considered it dangerously close, but that's not what it was. It could be that Taim has a similar ability. Or, as BBM says, he could have just destroyed their minds.

 

When I said " We've seen a few unscrupulous aes sedi who managed to cobble together a weak, ineffective type of compulsion on their own", Liandrin was part of what I meant. She couldn't make someone become a servile person for life; hers only worked if the person could convince themselves to do what she wanted. Hers was a little more effective then Verin's version, but it was still pretty limited.

 

But the real Compulsion is capitalized because it's a very specific thing. It could be that Taim had some partial compulsive ability that was much stronger than that of Liandrin or Verin. That Liandrin's was more effective shows that there can be varying levels of "not really Compulsion".

[Yosarian]

That could be.

 

Based on what we've seen in the Black Tower, Taim does appear to be able to do compusion-ish stuff, but not quickly, and possibly not without the person's trust; it only seems to happen to people who agree to take private lessons from him. It could be like Verin's version of compulsion.

[mb]

"Being a good persuader"? He did something to those soldiers so they would only want serve and obey for the rest of their lives.

 

I suppsoe it's possible someone else did it, but who else would be there when 4 soldiers came to Taim under a flag of parley?

It seems you misunderstood my first comment. I meant that they would not necessarily serve/obey Taim. The list of actions were guesses on what Taim did.

 

Taim is crazy strong.

Now; but back then he might have been considerably less.

 

By the way, the verb is "compel", not "compulse".

[Suttree]

Based on what we've seen in the Black Tower, Taim does appear to be able to do compusion-ish stuff, but not quickly, and possibly not without the person's trust; it only seems to happen to people who agree to take private lessons from him. It could be like Verin's version of compulsion.

 

As Barid quoted above it wasn't what he did to Bashere's men. ToM makes pretty clear what is going on at the BT and it is something other than compulsion.