Demandred

[FarShainMael]

Where did the Prophet first REALLY get touched by the madness? He was already not all the healthy when he was with Perrin at the beginning of DR, but I seem to remember he had a vision that made him to global... was in Murandy? I just don't remember...

 

If it was, then we could pin it on Demandred, and it would make sense the Dark One would LOVE "dragonsworn" killing, raping and destroying in the Dragon's name...

 

Added the last as an edit to provide context for why I'm asking this here...

 

Masema first started proclaiming Rand as the DR in Ghealdan (TDR34). But he was affected to tears by the passage through the Portal Stones much earlier (TGH37, Stedding Tsofu to Doman Head - four months passed! What happened?). It was after this, and after Rand's skyfight with Ba'al, that we see him worshipping Rand (TGH49).

[Hybrid]

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

 

That's very well thought out. Right now I'm on the fence. If it weren't for the proxies comment . . . but I can't really think of much else that he could be doing.

[Majsju]

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

 

That's very well thought out. Right now I'm on the fence. If it weren't for the proxies comment . . . but I can't really think of much else that he could be doing.

 

Control Roedran instead of posing as Roedran. Fits with Sammaels proxy-comment, and allows for Demandred to work behind the scenes and manipulate events all over the place.

[Terez]

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

 

That's very well thought out. Right now I'm on the fence. If it weren't for the proxies comment . . . but I can't really think of much else that he could be doing.

 

Control Roedran instead of posing as Roedran. Fits with Sammaels proxy-comment, and allows for Demandred to work behind the scenes and manipulate events all over the place.

Except that Brandon's comments make it almost certain that Demandred does, in fact, have an alter ego, and RJ's comment along with that suggests that we should be able to figure out who it is.

[Hybrid]

I've been rereading Luckers' Military Roundup thread. One of the ideas he proposes is that a unified Murandy might actually have a reasonable military (by Westlands standards, at least), due to constant fighting, but the country itself is considered weak since it's never presented a unified front. Add to that its strategic location, and I can see Demandred's interest.

 

I think I'm starting to buy into this theory -- though I believe that Murandy isn't the full extent of his influence.

[Bluedust9]

Huge reason I believe Roedran is Dem, besides everything else is this one quote Terez has in her FAQ (Well opinion piece):

 

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a’Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

The mention of Mat there with Roedran, and all the comparisons with Mat and Dem, including being a gambling man, just makes me feel like RJ was throwing it out there in plain view.

[Majsju]

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

 

That's very well thought out. Right now I'm on the fence. If it weren't for the proxies comment . . . but I can't really think of much else that he could be doing.

 

Control Roedran instead of posing as Roedran. Fits with Sammaels proxy-comment, and allows for Demandred to work behind the scenes and manipulate events all over the place.

Except that Brandon's comments make it almost certain that Demandred does, in fact, have an alter ego, and RJ's comment along with that suggests that we should be able to figure out who it is.

 

Brandons comments does no such thing. He would not be allowed to confirm a thing as big as that.

As for the infamous RJ-quote that is so popular here, it would not be the first time he delivers an answer that only covers part of the question. In this case, we should be able to figure out Meesana. We had enough clues to actually figure that out. But Demandred? At best we have enough clues to make a correct guess. And RJs comments about how few who managed to figure out who killed Asmo clearly shows that he did consider figuring something out as quite different from just making a lucky guess.

 

Of course, if he does have a fairly permanent seat, and a permanent disguise, Murandy and Roedran are good guesses. But that is all they are, guesses. Granted, a bloody lot better than the guesses putting him in charge of an army of channelers from the Land of madmen...(the very thought makes me want to throw up a little)

[Terez]

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

That's very well thought out. Right now I'm on the fence. If it weren't for the proxies comment . . . but I can't really think of much else that he could be doing.

Control Roedran instead of posing as Roedran. Fits with Sammaels proxy-comment, and allows for Demandred to work behind the scenes and manipulate events all over the place.

Except that Brandon's comments make it almost certain that Demandred does, in fact, have an alter ego, and RJ's comment along with that suggests that we should be able to figure out who it is.

Brandons comments does no such thing. He would not be allowed to confirm a thing as big as that.

If you read the quotes in question, you'll see that Brandon did so because he believed RJ had already done the same. And indeed, RJ had, but the quote was low enough in detail that many of us had convinced ourselves that all he meant is that we could figure out 'who' Demandred was in the sense that Demandred is Demandred. Brandon wasn't involved enough in the fandom to understand that, so he apparently didn't consider that we didn't take the quote at face value.

 

As for the infamous RJ-quote that is so popular here, it would not be the first time he delivers an answer that only covers part of the question. In this case, we should be able to figure out Meesana. We had enough clues to actually figure that out. But Demandred? At best we have enough clues to make a correct guess.

I believe we have many more clues for Demandred than we had for Mesaana. The only thing that made Mesaana easier is that 1) we knew she was in the White Tower somewhere, and probably posing as an Aes Sedai, and 2) her alter ego didn't have the same stigma against it as Roedran did for Demandred. We were very resistant to that idea for a long time for reasons already covered, but they're not really good reasons. They seemed like good reasons before TGS, but that's the point at which the arguments against Roedran began to weaken. Really, they began to seriously weaken in KOD, but the 'my rule is secure' bit drove the point home. I think that was RJ's call, since he said that he gives less hints when people are starting to figure something out, and more hints when we're on the wrong track entirely (or Brandon following RJ's policy on that - he's mentioned it, so he's aware of it).

 

And RJs comments about how few who managed to figure out who killed Asmo clearly shows that he did consider figuring something out as quite different from just making a lucky guess.

RJ's comments about Asmodean were a joke. He even said so quite plainly. He found it amusing that we cared so much about who killed Asmodean.

 

Of course, if he does have a fairly permanent seat, and a permanent disguise, Murandy and Roedran are good guesses. But that is all they are, guesses. Granted, a bloody lot better than the guesses putting him in charge of an army of channelers from the Land of madmen...(the very thought makes me want to throw up a little)

Agreed on the Land of Madmen. That would a very random and disappointing plot twist (especially considering that the place is never even mentioned in the books outside the BWB).

 

Again, glad to see so many coming to the Light. When I first took up the Roedran mantle, there were a good number of younger fandom members especially who favored the theory before I did, but most people still seemed to believe he was in Shara or Seanchan or the Land of Madmen (quite aside from all the people who went for Galgan or someone else blatantly disqualified by RJ and Brandon).

[Terez]

Huge reason I believe Roedran is Dem, besides everything else is this one quote Terez has in her FAQ (Well opinion piece)

A FAQ is something to address frequently asked questions, of which this is of course one of the big ones (hence why it's such a big page - there are a lot of relevant quotes to consider). I debated on whether or not I should take a stance on Roedran, and I used the old FAQ as a sort of guide. They weren't scared to make calls on things like this, as far as which theories are the most logical, so I decided to do the same. There aren't really any other feasible options, aside from continuing to hold on to the idea that Demandred isn't posing as anyone. Trust me, I tried to continue believing this after the Brandon quote, but eventually I had to give it up. (I think Luckers is in the same camp on that, but I could be wrong...many of us were resistant to the idea that he had an alter ego, but Roedran is really starting to slap us in the face). In the process of investigating the FAQ page, I put together the clues about the pipe, and that just made me more confident. On other pages I give more weight to alternate theories, but in this case I didn't think it appropriate, beyond detailing the other things Demandred might be up to, and noting the theories I don't think are very likely, and why.

 

Mostly, it's intended to be useful to people who are considering the question by gathering all of the evidence. I could have saved space by summing up some of the quotes, but I figure people can skim them for the bolded, most relevant bits if they like.

[Durinax]

talmanes pipe from rhoedran is metal right? I never thought of a finder being put on there.... easy way to keep track of mat since talmanes mats second in command he would usually be close by

[Terez]

Yup, it's gold...and while other substances will hold a Finder, they won't hold it for long. Metal holds it forever...and it can be used so long as the piece is in the possession of the person connected to the Finder weave.

[Leyrann]

Then we must hope Fortuona (and hundreds of Damane) are near Mat when Demandred appears. It would be an interesting battle, Gambler vs. Gambler.

 

(and then I also mean the whole Last Battle. They are the military leaders)

[Terez]

I don't see any reason why Mat can't be the one to kill Demandred, as it comes to that. You might say the Battle of Cairhien was Couladin vs Mat in the same way.

[Leyrann]

Couladin couldn't channel. Demandred can. That's why I think every Forsaken will have to be killed by a channeler. Or maybe one in TAR by Perrin and Egwene (or just Perrin). But he already has Slayer. Or would he fight Slayer and a Forsaken at the same time? That would be epic, but I think he would only stand a change with the help of the wolves. I mean, if there are enough wolves that imagine the forsaken can't channel, then he/she can't anymore (as long as he/she is in TAR). And if Perrin imagines he IS a channeler, he can channel (sort of).

[Terez]

Couladin couldn't channel. Demandred can.

Mat has a medallion.

[Leyrann]

Of course! Well, then I think Mat will maybe kill Demandred. Great!

 

Tai'shar Manetheren!

[contempt]

Agreed on the Land of Madmen. That would a very random and disappointing plot twist (especially considering that the place is never even mentioned in the books outside the BWB).

It is mentioned when Rand asks the Sea folk woman what they do to male channelers.

[FarShainMael]

Of course! Well, then I think Mat will maybe kill Demandred. Great!

 

Tai'shar Manetheren!

 

Yay! That'll be worth watching!

[Terez]

Agreed on the Land of Madmen. That would a very random and disappointing plot twist (especially considering that the place is never even mentioned in the books outside the BWB).

It is mentioned when Rand asks the Sea folk woman what they do to male channelers.

No, a 'barren isle with no food or water' is mentioned.

[contempt]

No, a 'barren isle with no food or water' is mentioned.

Ok, first let me say that I, too, hate the fact I have to quote the BWB to prove this, but in it it explicitly states:

 

"Approximately equidistant from Seansean's borders and roughly south of our land across the Sea of Storms is the third continent. Nameless except to it's inhabitants, it was discovered by the Sea Folk, who call it "the Land of the Madmen" and do their best to avoid it. Until this publication, they were the only ones even aware of it's existence. The Sea Folk have not even tried to chart its shoreline, though they do state that the continent is approximately seven hundred and fifty leagues across and five hundred leagues from north to south, with its southern coast extending to within five hundred miles of the southern icecap."

 

Given this info what else could she possibly have been referring to?

 

Edit: And as for her saying it was "a barren isle with no food or water", the very next paragraph goes on to say:

 

"Many active volcanoes are located along its coastline, easily visible from the sea."

 

Since they avoid even looking at it too much (except to get close enough to drop off new madmen), that could easily explain her belief that it has no food or water, something that is highly unlikely given the size of the island.

[Leyrann]

I don't believe that. They know, I think, about the insane channelers there. People, insane or not, mean that there is food and water.

 

But this thread is about Demandred, not the Land of the Madmen.

[contempt]

tLotM is relevant to this discussion if I or anyone else who voted there believes that's where he is, as I've stated earlier in this thread.

 

And like I was also trying to explain, her believing there is no food or water there doesn't make it so, and is probably caused by them seeing nothing but active volcanoes along the shore.

 

It would be quite ironic if they believe they've been leaving men there to die for thousands of years only to find out they were actually creating Dems army for him.

 

That's not to say I think he hasn't had a hand in a lot of other things, just that I think it's where "his rule is secure, his army is ready."

[Terez]

No, a 'barren isle with no food or water' is mentioned.

Ok, first let me say that I, too, hate the fact I have to quote the BWB to prove this, but in it it explicitly states

I know what it says. But if the Sea Folk haven't charted its shores, then they probably haven't visited there much. It would be dangerous. Much safer just to drop them off on a random island with no food and water, where they will starve and not harm anyone. Since they found insane channelers (male and female) living on the the Land of Madmen when they first discovered it, it's unlikely they were stupid enough to think it had no food and water (especially seeing as how it's huge).

[contempt]

^^Good points.

 

But given RJs enormous fondness of foreshadowing plus the overall theme of the WoT universe where things are long forgotten & then rediscovered, I don't think it should be ruled out.

 

It could very well be that the ancestors of the Sea Folk who didn't even know how to use ships very well found the place & started dropping off their madmen (along with their wives as we've seen this willingness with the BT as an example). Then they forget about it, get organized & rediscover the island hundreds of years later. Seeing all the active volcanoes it now has, they assume it to have no food or water & start dropping off their madmen.

[Leyrann]

You're a bit too creative...