Moraine

[Xeonicus]

In TFoH Lan said she was gone, his bond dissipated and was transferred. I can't imagine this was a result of her entering the ter'angreal door. She entered Finland before in Tear and we don't see any evidence that Lan noticed anything. So, it seems entering the doorframe was not enough.

 

Is the doorframe melting what caused it? I can't imagine so since other methods are still available to enter Finland.

 

So did she "die"? A lot of the characters really truly do die, but come back somehow. We know that the rules of reality are different in Finland. Perhaps that played a role? It just seems like she truly had to have died somehow. Otherwise, why the bond transfer if she was merely captured?

[Guest Majsju]

I've been quite convinced since the beginning that the bond was cut because Moiraine was stilled. Especially after the return of Lanfear, who appears to have been stilled as well.

[skalors3]

I agree with Majsju on that point. I always thought that whatever caused the ter'angreal door to melt also stilled both women.

[Luckers]

When you get down to it, two women channeling as much as they could fell into a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded. Since then we have seen two effects that previously we have only EVER seen in women who were stilled**, being Cyndane's decreased strength, and the severing of Moiraines bond. Finally we know the One Power is dangerous to the Finns, therefore them being able to control, contain or imprison two women who could channel (which we know they did) is unlikely unless those women had been severed.

 

**and in women who die, but since we know that Moiraine didn't die, ill exclude this.

[skalors3]

Luckers, I may be wrong, but I don't think Moiraine was holding the source when she hit Lanfear. Maybe it was just an impression that I had.

[Guest Majsju]

Moiraine embraced the True Source the moment before she got the jump on Lanfear.

[skalors3]

I know that Maj, but she was also knocked under the trailer. Did she embrace the source when she got back up?

[Luckers]

That is what Maj is talking about. She did. Moreover she also grabbed at the angreal Lanfear was holding.

[chuckievi]

And according to Avi any woman near a collapsing weave could be burnt out... so if Lanfear's weave collapsed when they fell through the doorway they could have both been instantly burned out, thus solving that problem.

[Xeonicus]

Hmm, that makes good sense. I didn't make the connection about Cyndane being weaker in the power. It seems odd to me that would happen as a result of being resurrected by the DO though. We know that a male healing severing in a female can restore them to full power, no? So the DO perhaps restored her link to saidar as well as brought her back from the grave? Maybe when he restored her power he made her weaker on purpose to discipline her for her failure.

 

I didn't know a collapsing weave can burn the power out of any women near it. Don't Aei Sedai in training have to deal with the danger of that sometimes? Which is to say, women do burn themselves fumbling with the power, but I thought collapsed weaves happened much more often while learning...

[Luckers]

Actually it seems far more likely to me that he simply called on a rebel black sister to heal her when she was reborn burned off. The Dark One knew the rebels knew this through Moghedian, and it would have been a simple matter to send for one.

 

I find this far more likely then the dark One weakening her purposefully. she is his tool, and weakening her is therefore weakening himself. Yes, she must be punished for her misdeeds... but that is what the cour'souvra achieves... control and punishment. Weakening her strength after that seems... foolish. Also, if the dark one could assert control over the strength of those he recycles, then why not bring all those that have been recycled back as strong as it is possible to be?

 

As for the collapsing of the weaves... i dont think it was involved in them being severed... but that being said the reason it doesn't happen much after learning is because they learnt how to weave without losing concentration. That being said having moiraine crash into you and rip your angreal away is bound to mess with anyones concentration.

 

Nevertheless, far more comonly spoken of is the risk of being burned out when channeling around a ter'angreal. And this ter'angreal exploded from what Lanfear and Moiraine did.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I find this far more likely then the dark One weakening her purposefully. she is his tool, and weakening her is therefore weakening himself. Yes, she must be punished for her misdeeds... but that is what the cour'souvra achieves... control and punishment. Weakening her strength after that seems... foolish. Also, if the dark one could assert control over the strength of those he recycles, then why not bring all those that have been recycled back as strong as it is possible to be?

 

I agree with this statement in full.

[Xeonicus]

Actually it seems far more likely to me that he simply called on a rebel black sister to heal her when she was reborn burned off. The Dark One knew the rebels knew this through Moghedian, and it would have been a simple matter to send for one.

 

I find this far more likely then the dark One weakening her purposefully. she is his tool, and weakening her is therefore weakening himself. Yes, she must be punished for her misdeeds... but that is what the cour'souvra achieves... control and punishment. Weakening her strength after that seems... foolish. Also, if the dark one could assert control over the strength of those he recycles, then why not bring all those that have been recycled back as strong as it is possible to be?

 

That could be... it still bothers me though. Why have a black sister restore Cyndane? Isn't the DO capable of doing that himself? If he isn't, or wasn't willing to, why have a female do it, why not get one of the male forsaken to do it and restore her fully? Surely they can't say no to the DO, though I suppose it would have been a simpler matter to have a black sister do it in secret than inviting Demandred back to Shayol Ghul. That still begs the question... Moghedian learned to heal severing from Nynaeve, do you think Moghedian would have taught such a thing to the black sisters or did healing severing become common knowledge (I don't remember).

 

I am also starting to have doubts about how knowledgeable the DO truly is after the encounter with Demandred in the pit of doom where he confesses to himself the number of times the DO's ignorance suprised him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Isn't the DO capable of doing that himself? If he isn't, or wasn't willing to, why have a female do it, why not get one of the male forsaken to do it and restore her fully?

 

Because they had only learned about Nynaeve's method, through Moghedien, not Damer Flinn's method. And the Dark One would not be able to restore the ability to channel the One Power, that is anathema and opposite to his True Power. Just like the One Power could not fully Heal the madness from the taint caused by the True Power, but Ishamael wielding the True Power could.

[Trib4l]

I can't agree here, because we've only seen Healing work on a physical condition, never a "soul". Since Lanfear was placed into a new body, and the body had the physical trait to allow channeling, it seems unlikely that the new body's OP connection would have been cut and be in need of Healing. Also, we have seen that women healing women results in a far lower ability with the power. With someone like Lanfear I think it would have put her on level ground with Moiraine, not with Graendal as we see later.

 

Personally, I feel that this could be a hint from the DO to go along with the name, that she had better get her act together. Also, we got some pretty detailed asides from Cyndane's POV in WH that never mention being stilled - only a time among the Finns. It's possible, assuming she hadn't been there before, that they exacted a price for something she asked for.

 

Options here IMO:

1) The DO did it to make a point, not caring about a tool since she's still stronger than all but 2 or 3 AS unassisted.

2) The Finns did it as an exacting of a price for her being allowed to kill Asmodean (sorry, couldn't resist).

[RobertAlexWillis]

I can't agree here, because we've only seen Healing work on a physical condition, never a "soul".

 

Channeling is a function of the soul. When Nynaeve examined Siuan and Leane, she said that there was nothing wrong with them physically. Healing involves weaves of Spirit, whether the old Aes Sedai method, or Nynaeve and Damer's relatively new methods, and Spirit affects the soul.

[Trib4l]

This has already been discussed a million times. We see that channeling is not only "spiritual", but physical as well. If any body is capable of channel, why would the DO have such a hard time finding bodies to stick the Forsaken in - the answer is it's a two part solution. Both "soul" and body must be capable.

 

Nynaeve says there's nothing wrong physically, but can still detect something that has been cut.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If any body is capable of channel, why would the DO have such a hard time finding bodies to stick the Forsaken in - the answer is it's a two part solution. Both "soul" and body must be capable.

 

Who said it was hard to find bodies? The only pseudo-difficulty described is the result of curtailed Borderland raids, not a requirement that the body be that of a channeler. And are you saying that Halima's former body could channel saidin? Or that a female body which can channel saidar provides access for a male soul to saidin? I find that faintly ridiculous. As Shaidar Haran told Aran'gar, "The body bends to the soul," (Lord of Chaos, prologue The First Message) Halima continues to channel saidin instead of saidar because channeling is a function of the soul. If the ability was physical, she would begin channeling saidar.

 

Nynaeve stated that there was nothing physically wrong with Siuan and Leane. Then she Healed their ability to channel, albeit imprefectly. Therefore, Healing can affect non-physical wounds.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Except that we do know that channeling is genetically linked. That's where Fades come from. Trollocs breed true except when the offspring gets the gene that allows humans to channel from both parents. If that happens, you get a Myrdraal. (one can safely assume it is extremely rare and recessive given the relative scarcity of channelers in the general population and one might also infer that it is not a sex-linked trait otherwise there would be many more male channelers than female)

 

This means that channeling is dependent on the both mind/soul and body of the channeler. Hence, the Halima body is female and has the gene so it has the ability to channel, yet Balthamel's soul is male, therefore he/she/it channels saidin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except that we do know that channeling is genetically linked. That's where Fades come from.

 

What do Mryddraal have to do with channeling? And what evidence is there IN THE BOOKS that channeling is genetic?

[Guest Majsju]

Except that we do know that channeling is genetically linked. That's where Fades come from.

 

 

What do Mryddraal have to do with channeling? And what evidence is there IN THE BOOKS that channeling is genetic?

 

That is a theory I have posted occasionally, but there is no actual support for it in the books. It does however make a lot of sense.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, the fact that souls can be transmigrated to different bodies (including between genders) without affecting either which half of the source they draw on or their strength in the Power (neither Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva nor Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima ... nor Ishamael/Moridin for that matter ... have shown any signs of being weaker, indicating that Lanfear/Cyndane's change has a cause other than the transmigration process) indicates that the ability is NOT genetically determined.

[TheDiceAgain...]

I don't have it with me at the moment, but I believe this comes from somewhere in the BWB. And yes I know that not everything in there can be taken completely at face value, this one just makes a great deal of sense to me...

[Guest Majsju]

Go read the Blog, RJ has confirmed that it is genetically determined. And obviously physically as well, looking at the chapter where we got introduced to the 'Gars.

But without the gen, it doesn't matter how suitable the body is for channeling, it ain't gonna work.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Can you show me which section of the blog? I find that very interesting because most indications are otherwise ... it would have to mean that recipient bodies for channelers' transmigrations would have to be genetic matches in order to not affect Power gender and strength .... that just doesn't seem likely ... add to that Nynaeve's assertions of Siuan and Leane's physical health before the Healing ...

 

Nevertheless, it's RJ's world. If he said it, I suppose I have to buy it ... can you show me where? I'd like to read it myself ...