The nature of Rand Sedai

[Puny]

 

Those souls have served the Light and some have been granted to be Heroes of the Horn. Not every single of those souls have had the same core or essence from the beginning. The soul´s personaly trait can be completelty different in the next incarnation. And most of those soul´s don´t even showcase the coreness of their soul in every life. On the contrary, they can live numerous lives just being normal individuations, showing and exploring different personalities. Their core is still there, it´s just sleeping in those particular incarnations.

 

This is all my PoV of souls and such.

 

Fair enough. But if the soul doesn't contain some inescapable personality traits then why set some few souls apart at all? If anybody could be the Dragon or Hawkwing in the right circumstances, or if both men could easily become Padan Fain or Balthamel then the existance of the Heroes would seem to me to be pretty redundant.

 

I wish Jordan would have written more about these kinda things. IMO this is far more interesting then who killed Asmo or who is Taim really.

Hmm, tricky tricky. I think each soul is itself, i.e. it has some personality or rather soul traits that makes it what is it. But it´s hard to know what that is. We could argue that Birgitte´s core soulness is that that soul really has an affinity with bows. She is an excellent bowman and when she is reborn in a time when the Wheel needs her skills, then sooner or later she will pick up a bow and she will be a great archer. Her being good with a bow is at the core of her soul I would argue simply because in numerous lives she has had a bow and been really good with it, and she has done deeds that has made her a legend throughout the Ages. Her meeting Gaidal is also at her core of her soulness, because they are somehow connected. That doesn´t mean that anyone can be Birgitte just because they are good with a bow, just as it doesn´t mean that when that core of her soul is asleep (she is reborn as a farmer, a slave or w/e) and never even picks up a bow, that that trait in her soul is gone.

 

The same goes for Rand and the Dragon soul. But it´s tricky, because what is truth and what is legend. And what is the Dragonsoul´s core? We have only had the chance to see it through the Dragonsoul´s previous incarnation, LTT. So are all Ltt´s abilities part of the core what the Dragon soul is, or not?. We don´t know so we speculate. I think that at the core of the Dragon soul is a need/will w/e you wanna call it to stop the Dark One, to balance the Pattern again. LTT tried doing that in the AoL, cause there was a unbalance in the making, (the Bore being drilled) and when he tried to do it he failed. So that soul is given a second chance when the Wheel is out of balance again in this Age. I think that is at his core. But to say that the Dragon Soul´s trait is to be uberbadass with the Power or that he scare away Darkfriends with a boo. We don´t know if that is a soul trait simply because we haven´t seen it in other incarnations.

[Puny]

 

Those souls have served the Light and some have been granted to be Heroes of the Horn. Not every single of those souls have had the same core or essence from the beginning. The soul´s personaly trait can be completelty different in the next incarnation. And most of those soul´s don´t even showcase the coreness of their soul in every life. On the contrary, they can live numerous lives just being normal individuations, showing and exploring different personalities. Their core is still there, it´s just sleeping in those particular incarnations.

 

This is all my PoV of souls and such.

 

Fair enough. But if the soul doesn't contain some inescapable personality traits then why set some few souls apart at all? If anybody could be the Dragon or Hawkwing in the right circumstances, or if both men could easily become Padan Fain or Balthamel then the existance of the Heroes would seem to me to be pretty redundant.

 

Maybe that's why there is only 100 or so Heroes of the Horn. Because it's such a rare and special thing. Because it takes many of the people with that soul to be heroic in age after age. Because each life is a separate person (per RJ) one person will be heroic in one life but the next person with the soul won't be. Only those souls that have each separate person be heroes time and again will be chosen. It's not the fact that the soul is special and causes each of it's lives to be heroic. It's that fact that each person becomes a hero that marks the soul as special. I don't know if my thought process is clear here. My basic point is that the soul doesn't always determine how each and every person will be like. There just happen to be a few rare souls where each person that has been reborn with that soul has become heroic.

+1. I agree. But one thing I was wondering about then is, if the different personalities of a soul do become heroes at a higher rate then other souls, how come? Is the soul peaceful and bubbly but in each incarnation comes to a road where it is forced to be a hero, and excells in it reluctantly, thus becoming a Hero? And who forces it, the Wheel? Then the soul is doomed because it is predestined to be a Hero. Or does the Wheel present numerous opportunities for the soul to be brave and if the different personalities do indeed to brave things they become Heroes? What I´m trying to ask here is that the Wheel World is deterministic, and this feels very... free willed.

[Mr Ares]

I've already explained why I don't consider the difference in souls to be a consideration.

And? The soul is important. Rand has the same soul that he had as Lews Therin. He has the single most important thing that makes up Lews Therin from the very start. I'm sorry, I'm finding it mind-boggling that you don't consider it important. It's like trying to explain physics without considering gravity to be an important factor.

As I say, I don't consider the soul of LTT to be the most important part of him - more like a guideline. Within a given set of guidelines, many different people could exist - each incarnation of a soul being a new person. What is the most important part of LTT is his personhood, and that is gone, albeit parts of it remain.

 

 

I fail to see why being a soldier should invalidate her opinion to any extent.

 

Because she freely admits she's not a philosopher, and because her beliefs are definitely swayed by some incorrect information.

Rand isn't a philosopher either, nor is LTT. Let's discount the opinion of everyone that isn't Herid Fel or Elan Morin Tedronai, in that case.

 

 

I don't think any of them are the same, but there similarities, and therefore we can compare and contrast to draw conclusions. Hell, everyone in the WoT world is a reincarnation - are they all the same or is Rand different? I don't see why Rand should be considered a special case - the main difference between him and every other soul in this matter is his insanity granting him memories from a past life.

 

He has the memories of his previous life; it's been demonstrated multiple times in multiple ways that he didn't imagine them, most recently in his confrontation with the Borderland monarchs. He has the personality of his previous life - Forsaken musings on Rand talking about how Lews Therin was proud to the point of arrogance, a cunning and devious warrior, that he was quick to rely on his luck, that he was weak and soft-hearted as girl in some respects, that he had a terrible temper, etc. He has the soul of Lews Therin. All he's missing is the physical body of Lews Therin.

Many people have had the soul of LTT/Rand. Rand has the memories of LTT, but Mat has the memories of other men as well. Differences in the personalities of LTT and Rand have been noted, by both Rand and the Chosen, so I disagree that he has the personality of LTT. He has the personality of Rand al'Thor. That might bear some resemblnce to the personality of LTT, but two people having similarities in personality does not make them the same.

 

 

I don't know if you've read Lord Valentine's Castle by Robert Silverberg, but the main character in that book suffers a fate not too different from the Dragon. He was essentially king of the world, but he gets betrayed, put into a new body, and is given amnesia. He retains his personality and his soul, and he eventually regains his memories over top of the memories he'd picked up since getting the new body. In that case (and realizing it's a different series, but I'm looking at this as a parallel philosophical case) would you say that he is or isn't the same person?

I'd say I would need to read the book to say for sure. But essentially this would appear to be a continuation of the old life in a new body, as opposed to Rand who is a new life. Fundamentally different.

And again, I bring up my example with the Forsaken's method of replacing themselves - if Moridin were moved into a new body, gained amnesia, lived a few years and developed into the same personality as he had before, and then regained his memories, I fail to see how he's not the same person.

Well, what you have there is again a continuation of the old life, not a new one. If I had another man's memories, that wouldn't make me him. There is more to a man than memories.

 

I would say that as the construct theory relies on the idea of Rand not accepting these memories are his own, that he hears the voice as another man's is an indication that he does not consider himself the same person.

Ah, but once he accepted that he is the same person, all his problems went away. Suggesting that his former belief was wrong.

Suggesting that forcing a separation between himself and the memories was unhealthy. The memories were there, Rand had to integrate them, and this is how he was able to do it - it doesn't indicate he was correct in his beliefs, although it doesn't suggest he was incorrect either.

 

 

LTT is dead, as I said. However, fragments of him exist in Rand - not a whole person. The grief over killing Ilyena comes from those fragments. It would be a mistake to think of them as two people, but also to think of them as merely one - more like one and a half. In that respect, I could be considered a Realist. It is something more than just Rand, but less than a whole person.

I think that definately puts you in the Realist crowd (maybe a Real-Fragment subgroup?). I never quite fit in with the Construct crowd either because with the Voice as a part of Rand and with Rand=LTT, then it would also be a part of Real LTT (Real-Rand-Fragment?).

I guess we're both in crowds of one.

 

Would it be accurate to say that you believe the new Rand is a merger of Rand and LTT then?

Yes. Though I would clarify that it is mostly Rand, just with bits of LTT added - like one musician sampling another.

 

 

I'm not convinced, as the ability to draw is more than a matter of memories. There's also a matter of natural talent - one can train to develop that talent, but if it isn't there then one is limited. What I'm arguing is that if you dumped Roger Federer's memories into my head, I still wouldn't be a top flight tennis player, in much the same way as if you went out and trained at tennis eveyday, you probably wouldn't win it either (you might, I don't know how good you are at tennis, but training as much as the greats won't necessarily put you on an equal footing with them). I wouldn't be capable of winning Wimbledon, but I would remember having won Wimbledon.

I don't know about that. It's not like Roger's a physical phenomenon. I really do think a large aspect of it is mental. Now if I ended up with his memories, I would still suck because I don't have the 20 years of training he had and my arm would probably break if I tried to swing like he does. But when it comes to drawing (disclaimer: I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler) I don't think it requires much physical ability. I imagine all you need is a steady hand and the rest is mental.

There are various things to consider: training, desire, natural talent, etc. (these apply to both tennis and drawing, of course). Just because memories of training are transferred, it wouldn't necessarily indicate that the muscle memory is as well. My actions would then be without the practiced ease of someone who had truly learnt these things, although I would be possessed of the correct knowledge of how to do it. I would remember being trained, remember how to train, but I wouldn't actually be trained, and so I would need to train myself to do something that I remember being able to do perfectly.

 

 

I don't think any of them are the same, but there similarities, and therefore we can compare and contrast to draw conclusions. Hell, everyone in the WoT world is a reincarnation - are they all the same or is Rand different? I don't see why Rand should be considered a special case - the main difference between him and every other soul in this matter is his insanity granting him memories from a past life.

You can make inferences and they would be valid but they'd be relatively weak because you could always say, "it's different." This is especially a problem with Rand because he's unique (he's the Dragon and no one else is or can be).

Well, that would be special pleading. Of course, Rand is the Dragon, that much is true, but that's not to say that he is necessarily different in this respect. If we take it on the principle that different lives are different people, then it would need to be shown that being the Dragon meant you were the same person. Of course, if we argue that different lives are still the same people, that's a different argument altogether.

 

Also, I disagree that the insanity granted him memories from a past life. I think he was always meant to have the memories.

Conceivably, both are true - that insanity, of a very rare sort, is the mechanism by which the Wheel gave him access to the memories he needed. However, I would point to Semi's comments in KoD as evidence that the memories are a result of his insanity.

 

 

That their views are based on what they have been through - Mat's memories integrated seamlessly, Rand fought it every step of the way. The Chosen have no other memories to contend with, and Birgitte started out with integrated memories. Rand's beliefs can be considered as what he needs to believe in order to repair his own mind. He needed to integrate the memories, and he did that by accepting them as his own, and therefore LTT as himself.

So (and this goes back to my earlier question) does this mean new Rand is a Rand/LTT merger?

Yes, and Mat is also by that metric a merger of the people he got his memories from.

[FarShainMael]

This is Moiraine's take on Rand/LTT:

 

"... And Verin says he managed to clean the taint from saidin."

 

"Blessed Light," Moiraine whispered. "How?"

 

"I don't know."

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was our wound repaired.'"

[hazelkrs1]

Ok I'm going to have to be very careful here, as I don't want to receive admonishment for inappropiate behavior on these forums (especially since my xbox live profile was recently served with a one day suspension for something completely ludicrous, either way I don't want to start a trend), but I've gotta say of all the arguments/discussions I've seen on dragonmount, this is easily the most pedantic/completely absurd of all of them. If you look at the main point of contention; whether or not Rand and LTT are the same person, there's two different angles to view it from. Philosophically, you could argue about what make a person a person, how important the soul is in shaping who you are, nature vs. nurture yadda yadda yadda and so forth till the cows come home, but so much of that debate is subjective, and you're really just filling in your own viewpoints about life and reality in general, not truthfully taking much evidence from the books to support either side. The other way to look at it is practically, or pragmatically I suppose would be even more fitting. Rand IS Lews Therin Telamon. Definitively. End of story. Goodnight, Sayonara, thanks for stopping by, but mostly, stay classy. How do we know this? Hmmm probably because it's clear as crystal if you read veins of gold all the way through. I won't even bother quoting, Rand literally says in just about every way imaginable that he IS LTT, always has been, he didn't merge, he just quit fighting that side of himself which already realized that he had a very old and a very important soul. Reunited (and it feels so good) is how I believe Hopefire put it, and I think that's the best way of describing it.

 

Now I'd probably be remiss if I didn't address some of the other arguments which have been made, so here we go!

 

1. We can't trust Rand's POV, because like any other character, his knowledge/perception is limited so he can be wrong

 

This is true, however this doesn't mean we should always be so quick to bring this up to discount what someone else was saying which the book backs up. Most of the time the characters will be misinformed, or just uninformed, about the goings on of other characters, so they make assumptions like "Rand is in Arad Doman" when he probably hasn't been there in weeks. They are going on heresay, so we should expect them to be wrong. However, when they are speaking about something which they are a majorly definitive expert on, like for instance their own metaphysical state, they are much less likely to be wrong, and at the very least are hitting extremely close to what the actual mark is. Noone else knows Rand/LTT's inner thoughts, feeling, and perceptions like Rand/LTT does, so in this case noone else is a better source or reference for whether he is LTT or not. Not only is he very clear on this, but there's also really NO other mention by any major characters who have known either Rand OR LTT that they are not the same person. Early on the Forsaken aren't sure if he's realized his true oneness with the Dragon Soul yet, they think he's still tinkering around as just farmboy Rand (which he was for awhile). Other than that, everyone else pretty much confirms that they're the same person.

 

2. RJ said that a soul reinacarnated will become a different personality, vis a vis a different person.

 

Lets take one more look at that quote:

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Two things: first, if you're an author of a major epic fantasy series and a fan asks you the question he was asked, do you A. build more tension in the storyline by giving everyone more to lose because they fear their own deaths, or B. fill your world with a bunch of hindu cow-loving hippies that don't care what happens at Tarmon Gaiden because "the pattern just repeats itself anyways man, I'll probably come back as an awesome eagle, dude" (Farout!). You would definitely do the former. The stakes have to be high for everyone, if they're not then you're a hack of an author (something RJ was not). Second, this answer was given in response to your average inhabitant of Randland and how they would view their own mortality. We don't even have to spout conjecture about whether Rand views his mortality differently, we see it throughout the entire series. The Dragon Soul is obviously way different from everyone else, the Pattern made it essential for LTT to come back, albeit in a different form, so he could right the wrongs he let happen in his past lifetime. Not only that, but as many have pointed out, RJ has been wrong before.

 

3. Mat's kinda the same cause he has other guys memories too....

 

This feels kinda dumb to even respond to, but for some reason people are still hung up on this thang. What Mat has inside his head, and what Rand has inside his, are two completely different phenomena. Mat got his from Finnland obviously, and he knows they're from other people, and they're not his. Of course the memories are in first person, so for him he experiences them, or recalls them, as if he was actually there, but that's because they wouldn't give him memories of someone in the third person, that's ludicrous. Rand is The Dragon Reborn, and the Pattern needed him to retain his essence and his memories because he didn't have nearly as much time and resources to "become" who he had to be (LTT) so that he could be Champion of the Light. Not to mention the whole soul thing, which I frankly do not understand how you can discount Mr. Ares, I mean what in the world would Rand be without the Dragonsoul?! You keep bringing up the hypothetical situation of "if person X somehow gets person Y's memories, does that make person X Y (hehe gender bender joke)" but this isn't what happened. The soul was brought back to serve the Pattern again, this isn't like that awful body swap movie where people transmit their consciousness to another body to cut down on airfare, this is a true transmigration of the soul.

 

Rand's situation is very similar though, to the transmigrated forsaken souls. Only real differences I see are soul transit time (3000 years vs. a couple of weeks maybe?) which I dont think has much bearing on anything, and who's doing the transmigrating (Pattern vs. DO). Incidentally, the DO doesn't do a perfect job of transmigration either: I can't remember if it was Osan'gar or Aran'gar's POV we get when we first see them getting "reborn" but they have barely any memory at all of their past life, even though it was very recent.

 

There have been several analogies and metaphors made to try and clear this issue up, but unfortunately this situation is somewhat unique so all those analogies and metaphors have done is muddied up the issue. For instance, my favorite one was the description of the Dragonsoul as being like a spool of thread that gets cut up into little stitching for the Pattern's set of mittens it will give to it's niece (taking it a bit further than it had been taken but then it had already taken the whole pattern-threads-being-souls thing a little far anyways). I'm pretty sure the Dragonsoul isn't like a ream of fabric you can go to your craft store and buy some of, I doubt it ever gets snipped at all. I view it as one long thread that pretty much extends the length of the pattern (which is to say, it never ends). One of the odd things with this is how the Dragonsoulthread compares to the Heroes of the Horn, but I'll try and cover that in a sec.

 

4. Birgitte lived her lives as seperate entities that never knew she was a HotH

 

This argument actually has some meat to its bones, I wouldn't link it to the RJ quote though because he was talking about souls reincarnated, she was ripped out of TAR. However, I will ackowledge that this definitely makes it seem that for anyone who is reborn they become a different person. Only thing is, I would still say that the Dragonsoul is still unique. HotH live many lives, but because they share the same soul, the same essence, they have much more potential to live heroic lives than your common citizen. Not only that, but they carry with them certain characteristics which end up influencing the kind of person they end up being. Not only does Birgitte usually have good marksmanship skills, but Gaidal Cain always ends up lookin kinda like Quasimodo without the hump. This makes me think that because the HotH souls are so, I dunno, distinguished, they start to affect the husk in which they inhabit and make it fit to their liking. In other words, even though it might come into a body that has very weak genetics, and a strong disposition towards cowardice, it will mold the husk into a fine song-inspiring individual. So they wouldn't be the same people per se, but they share MANY characteristics besides just the soul. Well, The Dragonsoul, being so much stronger than HotH souls, pretty much makes any attempt at distinguishing different personifications of itself an effort in futility.

 

5. The whole Rand's voice inside his head showing a distinct LTT personality seperate from Rand thing

 

This one is probably the most ambiguous argument, but it's also where many of those who believe Rand and LTT to be seperate entities built their convictions from the most. After all, it's pretty much the first 12 books of the series where Rand has a little creepy voice in his head telling him to do stuff, and when it's clear he's not crazy, we're like, "Oh so it's LTT's persona stuck inside Rand's head trying to take over". And to be honest, I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the whole construct/real argument, because I find the battlelines to be so obscure. But let's get this straight: Rand/LTT is crazy. In fact, he's one sick mamma jamma, probably loonier than all the toons in Warner Brothers. How do we know this? Because when Nyneave learns she can heal madness of the mind, she delves Rand pretty soon after. Whereas in this other Ashaman who was, let's face it, pretty close to fallin off the deep end, she saw a net of black hook thingys piercing the mind, in Rand she sees an entire metropolis subway network of black hook thingys all over the place. Along with them is the light inside Rand which is essentially protecting him from turning into a drooling charicature of a madman. This makes sense because LTT, once he realized what he had been forced to do by Ishamael, went completely Animaniacs on the world. He was probably more queer than an eleventeen dollar bill. But the Pattern can't use the Dragon Reborn if he's already completely bonkers, so it protects him from himself. Rand however, when he's struggling to come to terms with who he is, starts to fracture his own personality to try and cope with everything. This almost has a disastrous effect because he's essentially giving the bonkers side of LTT his own side of the playground to do what he wants. After his epiphany, his fractured state returns to how it should be, the memories/nuances of LTT coexisting with the newer memories/nuances of farmboy Rand in Rand Sedai.

 

Something I think has a lot of people tripped up about this is the fact that our protagonist has been Rand for pretty much the entire series. Had we had a few books of LTT's story, culminating with the sealing of the Bore, then the creation of Dragonmount, and then had a few books with Rand realizing he's the Dragon, it wouldn't have been nearly as jarring to go back to thinking of him as LTT again.

 

 

As for the original thread subject thingy, because Rand IS LTT, he's accurate in saying he's the last true male Aes Sedai. And yes, he's more deserving of the honoriffic Sedai at the end of his name than any other 3rd Age AS because he's an OG like that. As for First Among Servants, that's definitely more difficult to determine because we don't know if he was stripped of it before he died, or if someone else assumed the title after he died. If he did die as First, and noone else claimed it, then he would still be able to use that title now (it's ludicrous to assume there definitely would have been "term limits" which would make him an ex-First); one thing which makes me think he actually would still technically be First Among Servants is the name the Dark Prophecies give him: First Among Vermin. All of this is moot though, because as many have stated the office would have no authority now because the organization it led is now defunct.

 

 

 

 

TLDR: Rand and LTT are the same person, Nanny nanny boo boo. Is there a blowin raspberry smily? guess not, but that tiny Aiel is for any who oppose my logic!

 

jk'ing

[Mr Ares]

1. We can't trust Rand's POV, because like any other character, his knowledge/perception is limited so he can be wrong

 

This is true, however this doesn't mean we should always be so quick to bring this up to discount what someone else was saying which the book backs up. Most of the time the characters will be misinformed, or just uninformed, about the goings on of other characters, so they make assumptions like "Rand is in Arad Doman" when he probably hasn't been there in weeks. They are going on heresay, so we should expect them to be wrong. However, when they are speaking about something which they are a majorly definitive expert on, like for instance their own metaphysical state, they are much less likely to be wrong, and at the very least are hitting extremely close to what the actual mark is. Noone else knows Rand/LTT's inner thoughts, feeling, and perceptions like Rand/LTT does, so in this case noone else is a better source or reference for whether he is LTT or not. Not only is he very clear on this, but there's also really NO other mention by any major characters who have known either Rand OR LTT that they are not the same person. Early on the Forsaken aren't sure if he's realized his true oneness with the Dragon Soul yet, they think he's still tinkering around as just farmboy Rand (which he was for awhile). Other than that, everyone else pretty much confirms that they're the same person.

Everyone being...? The Chosen note both similarities and differences with LTT. No-one else is really in much of a position to judge.

 

2. RJ said that a soul reinacarnated will become a different personality, vis a vis a different person.

 

Lets take one more look at that quote:

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Two things: first, if you're an author of a major epic fantasy series and a fan asks you the question he was asked, do you A. build more tension in the storyline by giving everyone more to lose because they fear their own deaths, or B. fill your world with a bunch of hindu cow-loving hippies that don't care what happens at Tarmon Gaiden because "the pattern just repeats itself anyways man, I'll probably come back as an awesome eagle, dude" (Farout!). You would definitely do the former. The stakes have to be high for everyone, if they're not then you're a hack of an author (something RJ was not). Second, this answer was given in response to your average inhabitant of Randland and how they would view their own mortality. We don't even have to spout conjecture about whether Rand views his mortality differently, we see it throughout the entire series. The Dragon Soul is obviously way different from everyone else, the Pattern made it essential for LTT to come back, albeit in a different form, so he could right the wrongs he let happen in his past lifetime. Not only that, but as many have pointed out, RJ has been wrong before.

The Drgonasoul might be different from other souls, but is that difference relevant? That is the crucial part. In any given incarnation of a soul, if that incarnation dies, that person dies, even if the soul continues. The soul returned, as a blank slate, a new person. That person acquired the memories of the old, and something of the personality.

 

3. Mat's kinda the same cause he has other guys memories too....

 

This feels kinda dumb to even respond to, but for some reason people are still hung up on this thang. What Mat has inside his head, and what Rand has inside his, are two completely different phenomena. Mat got his from Finnland obviously, and he knows they're from other people, and they're not his. Of course the memories are in first person, so for him he experiences them, or recalls them, as if he was actually there, but that's because they wouldn't give him memories of someone in the third person, that's ludicrous. Rand is The Dragon Reborn, and the Pattern needed him to retain his essence and his memories because he didn't have nearly as much time and resources to "become" who he had to be (LTT) so that he could be Champion of the Light. Not to mention the whole soul thing, which I frankly do not understand how you can discount Mr. Ares, I mean what in the world would Rand be without the Dragonsoul?! You keep bringing up the hypothetical situation of "if person X somehow gets person Y's memories, does that make person X Y (hehe gender bender joke)" but this isn't what happened. The soul was brought back to serve the Pattern again, this isn't like that awful body swap movie where people transmit their consciousness to another body to cut down on airfare, this is a true transmigration of the soul.

What would Rand be without the Dragonsoul? A Grey man, unless he had another soul. In which case, the same as he is now, pretty much. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why a soul should be considered an important or relevant factor. The soul was brought back without the memories. They came later. And what is the relevant difference between Mat and Rand? It's no good simply saying they're completely different, because there are strong similarities, and all you have to counter it is "but they're different". I don't find that a compelling argument.

 

Rand's situation is very similar though, to the transmigrated forsaken souls. Only real differences I see are soul transit time (3000 years vs. a couple of weeks maybe?) which I dont think has much bearing on anything, and who's doing the transmigrating (Pattern vs. DO).

And the fact that Rand was reborn, not transmigrated - therefore he is no different in this respect froma ny other soul.

 

 

4. Birgitte lived her lives as seperate entities that never knew she was a HotH

 

This argument actually has some meat to its bones, I wouldn't link it to the RJ quote though because he was talking about souls reincarnated, she was ripped out of TAR. However, I will ackowledge that this definitely makes it seem that for anyone who is reborn they become a different person. Only thing is, I would still say that the Dragonsoul is still unique. HotH live many lives, but because they share the same soul, the same essence, they have much more potential to live heroic lives than your common citizen. Not only that, but they carry with them certain characteristics which end up influencing the kind of person they end up being. Not only does Birgitte usually have good marksmanship skills, but Gaidal Cain always ends up lookin kinda like Quasimodo without the hump. This makes me think that because the HotH souls are so, I dunno, distinguished, they start to affect the husk in which they inhabit and make it fit to their liking. In other words, even though it might come into a body that has very weak genetics, and a strong disposition towards cowardice, it will mold the husk into a fine song-inspiring individual. So they wouldn't be the same people per se, but they share MANY characteristics besides just the soul. Well, The Dragonsoul, being so much stronger than HotH souls, pretty much makes any attempt at distinguishing different personifications of itself an effort in futility.

Again, "but the Dragonsoul is different" doesn't make for a compelling argument. Is he significantly stronger than other souls? Can you show that all his incarnations are the same? Or is he, like them, merely a tool, spun out to do a job, no fundamental difference? And if the Heroes are different people each life, and Rand is merely another Hero, then he is a new person in each life.

[Dream]

Just to be clear, I do not make any claims that the Dragonsoul develops into the same character every time. Just that this incarnation (Rand) is a rebirth of its immediate predecessor (LTT). Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Not the Dragonsoul reborn, but the Dragon (aka LTT). Rand retains only LTT's memories. Rand considers himself only as LTT. Not any other incarnations, older "Dragons" or otherwise.

 

Also, to dismiss the importance of the Dragonsoul is plain silly. While it's true just saying he's the Dragonsoul doesn't prove anything, it does justifiably separate him from any other soul. It's because of the Dragonsoul that Rand is One with the Land. That he's the strongest Ta'veren ever. That he can see into the souls of others. That the existence of the universe rests in his hands. Because of the Dragonsoul, Rand is unique and can do things no other character. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand loses all that. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand becomes just another False Dragon, like Taim and Logain.

[Dagon Thyne]

She is head of the AS, he is not AS at all, despite having memories of being head of a now long defunct organisation. First Among Servants isn't a recognised position among modern AS, any more than Holy Roman Emperor is among modern Germans.

Ordinarily I wouldn't think that people have any right to titles held in a previous life, but Rand is a different case, IMO. He is LTT, albeit in a different body.

 

Something I also found ironic in ToM was Rand telling Cadsuane that he is "the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised," while Egwene was never tested, and as of ToM claims she has no intention of ever taking the test. So who has more right to call themselves Aes Sedai?

 

I would say that he is an aes sedai, but a different kind of aes sedai, with no authority over the current ones. What I personally find interesting is that he is both aes sedai and ashaman.

In Rand's mind, which is filled with memories of the AoL, all channelors are Aes Sedai. That is how it was in the AoL...Mordern Aes Sedai are just a watered down political group who claim to be the remnants of the Hall of Servants....Rand is the Forsaken are the only TRUE living Aes Sedai.

[hazelkrs1]

Everyone being...? The Chosen note both similarities and differences with LTT. No-one else is really in much of a position to judge.

 

 

Well looks like I might have you in a corner... you better not rope a dope your way outta this one. The Forsaken are informed by the DO that Rand is the Dragon reborn (might have been Moridin that tells them, but either way they are made aware), but they also learn from use of their spies that he doesn't quite act like LTT. Some of them most likely believe at first that he isn't LTT, just some other random champion of the light. But the ones who knew him best out of the Forsaken (Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammy) all believe him to be LTT because even if he (Rand) makes it seem like he doesn't remember his past life, he acts/thinks/plans like LTT. Lanfear, who was the closest to him, is completely convinced he's LTT. Granted, it might have been wishful thinking on her part because she wanted to claim LTT, but the fact remains the best authorities on whether Rand is LTT (including himself) all agree.

 

The Drgonasoul might be different from other souls, but is that difference relevant? That is the crucial part. In any given incarnation of a soul, if that incarnation dies, that person dies, even if the soul continues. The soul returned, as a blank slate, a new person. That person acquired the memories of the old, and something of the personality.

 

 

The difference is extremely relevant. Think of most souls on Randland, most threads in the Pattern, as just countless plain, blase, inert entities. If you could see the "aura" (not Min's visions, talkin bout the more generic idea of auras) of most people which would represent their soul, let's just say there wouldn't be much to write home about. Some of the souls, because they're either HotH souls or potential candidates for HotH, would stand out a little more. Then there's the Dragonsoul. Imagine a light so brilliant it seems to consume your entire field of vision. Whereas your generic soul inhabits a body and pretty much gives it, not life, but meaning, or it's essence, or some other ethereal mumbo jumbo, and that's it, the Dragonsoul brings a lot more to the table. It imprints itself onto that vessel and transforms it to the Pattern's will. It was the Pattern's will, in this case, to essentially transplant the persona of LTT along with the Dragonsoul, so that he could redeem himself. It also did this because it was probably the only way for Rand/LTT to succeed. Had he been the Dragon but not carried LTT's essence over, he would have amazing potential as a channeler, and would be valiant no doubt, but he wouldn't be able to draw on not just the memories and experiences of someone who is 420 years old, but also the determination of someone who knows he has to clean this mess up because he helped create it.

 

What would Rand be without the Dragonsoul? A Grey man, unless he had another soul. In which case, the same as he is now, pretty much. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why a soul should be considered an important or relevant factor. The soul was brought back without the memories. They came later. And what is the relevant difference between Mat and Rand? It's no good simply saying they're completely different, because there are strong similarities, and all you have to counter it is "but they're different". I don't find that a compelling argument.

 

 

I didn't meant without a soul, just a generic one. If you believe he would be the same with a plain soul in him, I think you're kinda missing out on the entire point of the series. Rand is obviously a Messianic figure, it's definitely not a huge leap of logic to be able to see this. Pretty much every culture has writings of a Messianic figure, and they don't refer to someone who's just like the rest of us, only he'll (or she'll) accomplish much more. No, a messiah is intrinsicly different from everyone else because of something within him. Most of the time it's because he has a part of their deities' spirit inside him/her, but either way that figure has no choice but to be a savior. The difference here is that the Dragon isn't a spiritual savior, he's a savior in a more literal sense of the word.

 

I thought I was lining out the ways Rand's scenario and Mat's scenario were different pretty well, but I'll do it in bullet form this time.

 

- Rand always had the memories in him; Mat got his artificially

- Rand's memories are of LTT, who was the Dragon before, and at the very least you have to admit they share a huge bond with eachother because of this; Mat's memories are of a random amalgamation of men whom the Finn's have feasted on (incidentally, if Birgitte visited the ToG, why doesn't Mat share some of her memories? hmmm).

- Rand either merges (or reunites, as I like to call it) with his seperate persona, which you can say is LTT or the fragmented memories of LTT; Mat won't ever merge with his memories because their only function is to fill gaps in his own memory. In other words, they are alien to him and always will be

- Rand doesn't just remember LTT's memories as if he's watching a movie screen, he feels every same emotion LTT feels during those memories, down to the anguish he felt at Ilyena's death; Mat shares no empathy whatsoever with the memories in his head, he can utilize them for knowledge but never shows any emotion other than frustration at having them.

- Rand has the memories of one man; Mat has the memories of many. If Mat had the memories of just one other person in his head, I'd be more inclined to say they're similar because more than likely the memories of that person might be a past life his.

- Rand shares not just the memories with LTT, they share the same soul; Mat shares just the memories.

- they're different (heehee)

 

And the fact that Rand was reborn, not transmigrated - therefore he is no different in this respect froma ny other soul.

 

 

Eh, I'll give you the first point, still doesn't mean his manner of being reborn is the same as everyone elses though.

 

Again, "but the Dragonsoul is different" doesn't make for a compelling argument. Is he significantly stronger than other souls? Can you show that all his incarnations are the same? Or is he, like them, merely a tool, spun out to do a job, no fundamental difference? And if the Heroes are different people each life, and Rand is merely another Hero, then he is a new person in each life.

 

Once again, I don't know how you've read the series and not gotten this fundamental idea from it; it couldn't be more clear that the Dragonsoul is different if the series was entitled "The Dragonsoul is different". Most threads aren't really tools for the pattern, they're kinda more filler. The Pattern can still use them, but they share VERY little with the awesomeness that is the tool called Dragonsoul. I don't think all his incarnations are the same, although they probably share even more attributes no matter who's consciousness it is, but in this case the Pattern needed the Dragon to be reborn as LTT again. And Rand is not just another Hero of the Horn btw.

[Mr Ares]

Just to be clear, I do not make any claims that the Dragonsoul develops into the same character every time. Just that this incarnation (Rand) is a rebirth of its immediate predecessor (LTT). Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Not the Dragonsoul reborn, but the Dragon (aka LTT). Rand retains only LTT's memories. Rand considers himself only as LTT. Not any other incarnations, older "Dragons" or otherwise.

 

Also, to dismiss the importance of the Dragonsoul is plain silly. While it's true just saying he's the Dragonsoul doesn't prove anything, it does justifiably separate him from any other soul. It's because of the Dragonsoul that Rand is One with the Land. That he's the strongest Ta'veren ever. That he can see into the souls of others. That the existence of the universe rests in his hands. Because of the Dragonsoul, Rand is unique and can do things no other character. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand loses all that. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand becomes just another False Dragon, like Taim and Logain.

Ta'veren comes from the Wheel - it can make anyone ta'veren at any time, therefore on that point you are demonstrably wrong. The existence of the universe resting in his hands I will grant you, but I'm not sure that the other points are necessarily intrinsic qualities of his soul - we don't know that LTT could see into the souls of others for example, and we know Rand couldn't for most of this life.

 

 

Everyone being...? The Chosen note both similarities and differences with LTT. No-one else is really in much of a position to judge.

Well looks like I might have you in a corner... you better not rope a dope your way outta this one.

Rope a dope? Me? No, I'm far more likely to just come out fighting.

The Forsaken are informed by the DO that Rand is the Dragon reborn (might have been Moridin that tells them, but either way they are made aware), but they also learn from use of their spies that he doesn't quite act like LTT. Some of them most likely believe at first that he isn't LTT, just some other random champion of the light. But the ones who knew him best out of the Forsaken (Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammy) all believe him to be LTT because even if he (Rand) makes it seem like he doesn't remember his past life, he acts/thinks/plans like LTT. Lanfear, who was the closest to him, is completely convinced he's LTT. Granted, it might have been wishful thinking on her part because she wanted to claim LTT, but the fact remains the best authorities on whether Rand is LTT (including himself) all agree.

The best authorities on LTT have vested interests in him still being around (save Ishy, who is insane), and even then the differences in personality are noted. So there are no reliable witnesses on the point.

 

The Dragonsoul might be different from other souls, but is that difference relevant? That is the crucial part. In any given incarnation of a soul, if that incarnation dies, that person dies, even if the soul continues. The soul returned, as a blank slate, a new person. That person acquired the memories of the old, and something of the personality.

 

The difference is extremely relevant. Think of most souls on Randland, most threads in the Pattern, as just countless plain, blase, inert entities. If you could see the "aura" (not Min's visions, talkin bout the more generic idea of auras) of most people which would represent their soul, let's just say there wouldn't be much to write home about. Some of the souls, because they're either HotH souls or potential candidates for HotH, would stand out a little more. Then there's the Dragonsoul. Imagine a light so brilliant it seems to consume your entire field of vision. Whereas your generic soul inhabits a body and pretty much gives it, not life, but meaning, or it's essence, or some other ethereal mumbo jumbo, and that's it, the Dragonsoul brings a lot more to the table. It imprints itself onto that vessel and transforms it to the Pattern's will. It was the Pattern's will, in this case, to essentially transplant the persona of LTT along with the Dragonsoul, so that he could redeem himself. It also did this because it was probably the only way for Rand/LTT to succeed. Had he been the Dragon but not carried LTT's essence over, he would have amazing potential as a channeler, and would be valiant no doubt, but he wouldn't be able to draw on not just the memories and experiences of someone who is 420 years old, but also the determination of someone who knows he has to clean this mess up because he helped create it.

A pretty metaphor, but not one I'm sure the series supports. Why should I accept that the Dragonsoul is this brilliant light, while normal Heroes shine and normal souls are dim? I see no fundamental difference in the quality of the souls, and I think that in most cases we lack the evidence to say what a "normal" soul brings to the table, so we cannot say that the Dragonsoul imprints itself in a way other souls don't. The difference is that most souls are allowed to wander freely and do as they will, but Heroes (including the Dragon) are corrective measures. They are spun out for a particular purpose.

 

What would Rand be without the Dragonsoul? A Grey man, unless he had another soul. In which case, the same as he is now, pretty much. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why a soul should be considered an important or relevant factor. The soul was brought back without the memories. They came later. And what is the relevant difference between Mat and Rand? It's no good simply saying they're completely different, because there are strong similarities, and all you have to counter it is "but they're different". I don't find that a compelling argument.

 

I didn't meant without a soul, just a generic one. If you believe he would be the same with a plain soul in him, I think you're kinda missing out on the entire point of the series. Rand is obviously a Messianic figure, it's definitely not a huge leap of logic to be able to see this. Pretty much every culture has writings of a Messianic figure, and they don't refer to someone who's just like the rest of us, only he'll (or she'll) accomplish much more. No, a messiah is intrinsicly different from everyone else because of something within him. Most of the time it's because he has a part of their deities' spirit inside him/her, but either way that figure has no choice but to be a savior. The difference here is that the Dragon isn't a spiritual savior, he's a savior in a more literal sense of the word.

 

I thought I was lining out the ways Rand's scenario and Mat's scenario were different pretty well, but I'll do it in bullet form this time.

 

- Rand always had the memories in him; Mat got his artificially

But that is not true - Rand did not have the memories until part way through the series.

- Rand's memories are of LTT, who was the Dragon before, and at the very least you have to admit they share a huge bond with eachother because of this; Mat's memories are of a random amalgamation of men whom the Finn's have feasted on (incidentally, if Birgitte visited the ToG, why doesn't Mat share some of her memories? hmmm).

While that is a difference (Rand's coming from his previous incarnation and Mat's from various people), I am not convinced it is a relevant difference. If each incarnation is a new person, then essentially both men have another man's memories in their head.

- Rand either merges (or reunites, as I like to call it) with his seperate persona, which you can say is LTT or the fragmented memories of LTT; Mat won't ever merge with his memories because their only function is to fill gaps in his own memory. In other words, they are alien to him and always will be

I disagree - I believe Mat has merged with his memories. They fill in the gaps in such a way as to essentially be indistinguishable from his own.

- Rand doesn't just remember LTT's memories as if he's watching a movie screen, he feels every same emotion LTT feels during those memories, down to the anguish he felt at Ilyena's death; Mat shares no empathy whatsoever with the memories in his head, he can utilize them for knowledge but never shows any emotion other than frustration at having them.

Again, I disagree - as I recall, Mat does feel all the emotions in those memories.

- Rand has the memories of one man; Mat has the memories of many. If Mat had the memories of just one other person in his head, I'd be more inclined to say they're similar because more than likely the memories of that person might be a past life his.

Again, a difference, but not one I'm convinced is relevant. Why should the number of people one has memoreis from be considered important?

- Rand shares not just the memories with LTT, they share the same soul; Mat shares just the memories.

And I've already explained why I don't consider a soul to be important in this regard.

- they're different (heehee)

You've won me round.

 

And the fact that Rand was reborn, not transmigrated - therefore he is no different in this respect froma ny other soul.

Eh, I'll give you the first point, still doesn't mean his manner of being reborn is the same as everyone elses though.

I must confess, I'm not sure what the difference is.

 

Again, "but the Dragonsoul is different" doesn't make for a compelling argument. Is he significantly stronger than other souls? Can you show that all his incarnations are the same? Or is he, like them, merely a tool, spun out to do a job, no fundamental difference? And if the Heroes are different people each life, and Rand is merely another Hero, then he is a new person in each life.

Once again, I don't know how you've read the series and not gotten this fundamental idea from it; it couldn't be more clear that the Dragonsoul is different if the series was entitled "The Dragonsoul is different". Most threads aren't really tools for the pattern, they're kinda more filler. The Pattern can still use them, but they share VERY little with the awesomeness that is the tool called Dragonsoul. I don't think all his incarnations are the same, although they probably share even more attributes no matter who's consciousness it is, but in this case the Pattern needed the Dragon to be reborn as LTT again. And Rand is not just another Hero of the Horn btw.

What is the difference between Rand and the Heroes? Both are tools, spun out by the Wheel to help correct drift in the Pattern. They are different tools, for different occasions, but all tools still. Rand might be a hammer, Birgitte a saw and Hawkwing a screwdriver. All are still tools.

[Bluedust9]

Good lord this thread is becoming impossible to read. Can we all just admit we're all correct in our own minds?

[Dream]

Just to be clear, I do not make any claims that the Dragonsoul develops into the same character every time. Just that this incarnation (Rand) is a rebirth of its immediate predecessor (LTT). Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Not the Dragonsoul reborn, but the Dragon (aka LTT). Rand retains only LTT's memories. Rand considers himself only as LTT. Not any other incarnations, older "Dragons" or otherwise.

 

Also, to dismiss the importance of the Dragonsoul is plain silly. While it's true just saying he's the Dragonsoul doesn't prove anything, it does justifiably separate him from any other soul. It's because of the Dragonsoul that Rand is One with the Land. That he's the strongest Ta'veren ever. That he can see into the souls of others. That the existence of the universe rests in his hands. Because of the Dragonsoul, Rand is unique and can do things no other character. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand loses all that. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand becomes just another False Dragon, like Taim and Logain.

Ta'veren comes from the Wheel - it can make anyone ta'veren at any time, therefore on that point you are demonstrably wrong. The existence of the universe resting in his hands I will grant you, but I'm not sure that the other points are necessarily intrinsic qualities of his soul - we don't know that LTT could see into the souls of others for example, and we know Rand couldn't for most of this life.

The Dragonsoul comes from the Wheel as well, but I understand what you mean. Rand isn't the only Ta'veren and Ta'verenism is a different mechanic than HotH or Dragon. On the other hand, he is the strongest Ta'veren since, well, the last Dragon. And if Rand wasn't the Dragon and let's say Logain was, then Logain would be the strongest Ta'veren while Rand would be his non-Ta'veren sidekick. It's expected that the Wheel would have a vested interest in it's saviour. So while the two may operate on different mechanics, they really do go hand-in-hand.

 

About LTT seeing into souls of others, that we don't know. But I think it's safe to say Rand wouldn't be able to if he wasn't the Dragon.

[hazelkrs1]

Ta'veren comes from the Wheel - it can make anyone ta'veren at any time, therefore on that point you are demonstrably wrong. The existence of the universe resting in his hands I will grant you, but I'm not sure that the other points are necessarily intrinsic qualities of his soul - we don't know that LTT could see into the souls of others for example, and we know Rand couldn't for most of this life.

 

 

Some are definitely intrinsic properties of the soul, others might be indirect effects of Rand achieving enough zen focus or something after his epiphany that he has even more special abilities. That he's one with the land comes from the Dragonsoul obviously, there's not really any way for this to happen because Rand causes it to be so, or even because the Pattern wills it. If the Pattern were able to will someone else being tied to the land, in which case the state of the land would coincide with the state of that other random person, it would because it would be less of a gamble (Rand has definitely teetered on the point of instability for a long time). Instead, were stuck with the Dragon being tied to the land. That's one of the reasons the stakes are so high. As for the seeing into souls thing, we aren't sure of this but there are references to LTT thinking that some of the Forsaken couldn't be trusted before they turned to the Shadow. As for Rand not having this ability before, he very well could have but it might have been repressed.

 

The best authorities on LTT have vested interests in him still being around (save Ishy, who is insane), and even then the differences in personality are noted. So there are no reliable witnesses on the point.

 

 

I never said the other sources were reliable, they're just the best we have besides Rand. And the only differences they occassionally notice they chalk up to him not realizing who he is yet. Anyways, that's somewhat irrelevant anyways because I was simply responding to you using the Forsaken as a possible source to prove Rand is not LTT. In my opinion you don't really need any outside sources besides Rand's POV because it is so clearcut and dried that he is LTT. You might think he's wrong, crazy, or lying to others about this, but it's reaching in every case just in an attempt to make your beliefs about the nature of reincarnation in this series (which I'm not sure if you got from the quote by RJ or not) correlate to that which culminated from veins of gold. Look, outside of asking Mrs. Jordan, we can't know for sure if RJ intended for that scene to unfold like it did. He might not have meant for Rand to believe he was LTT. But for now we do have to settle for what is part of the story now, and it is obviously the author's intent (at least Sanderson's, and I would suspect RJ as well) to have us see Rand and LTT as the same person.

 

A pretty metaphor, but not one I'm sure the series supports. Why should I accept that the Dragonsoul is this brilliant light, while normal Heroes shine and normal souls are dim? I see no fundamental difference in the quality of the souls, and I think that in most cases we lack the evidence to say what a "normal" soul brings to the table, so we cannot say that the Dragonsoul imprints itself in a way other souls don't. The difference is that most souls are allowed to wander freely and do as they will, but Heroes (including the Dragon) are corrective measures. They are spun out for a particular purpose.

 

 

The series supports it because we see the DF commander of Maradon say pretty much exactly what I said. True, he says this after Rand channels enough to fuel several small countries to save the city, but I doubt that it really has to do with the amount of channeling involved (since as far as we know he doesn't have the ability to sense the OP). If any DF had this same reaction just because someone channeled an incredible amount, you would have have seen this many other points in the series. No, the man is reacting to seeing the Dragon reveal himself in all his glory (which he does when he has his WTFPWN moments), something which would probably screw up any DF. Siuan also backs me up when her Talent lets her pick Rand out of a crowd the first time she sees him in Fal Dara. When she's describing what she saw to Moiraine, her hyperbole lets us see that Rand's "ta'verenness" is so strong he is completely in a league of his own. This is because she is seeing the Dragon, and his level of ta'veren is simply incomparable to other ta'veren. One last source we get is from Min, and this is a little shakier because she sees auras fairly often, but it's clear throughout the series that whereas some people have more images than others (like Aes Sedai and ta'veren), nothing compares to how many she sees floating around Rand constantly. Plus she sees an ethereal glow about him after veins of gold.

 

Something we can use as an indicator of what a normal soul brings to the table, use the multitude of random subcharacters pov, especially when compared to Rand's pov before he found out he was the Dragon. They pretty much just try to fulfill whatever role they've found themselves in, and don't try to go against the grain. Rand wants to believe he's normal, so for a long time he's struggling with both thinking he shouldn't have a part in all this, that he's just a lowly sheepherder, and knowing he has a higher destiny. This internal struggle of Rand's has pretty much everything to do with his abherrent behavior early on in the series and leading up to veins of gold.

 

Also, nothing indicates Heroes of the Horn were originally created as a form of a corrective measure. I can't remember who is explaining it (probably Birgitte) but basically just about anyone can potentially become a HotH, if they lead a life that's heroic enough and they die in some version of self-sacrifice to help others. The Pattern collects these souls to use again at the Last Battle, but nothing indicates it chooses who to create as potential HotH. The Dragon is as far as I know the only corrective measure the Pattern uses, unless it's another champion of the light (I think I remember seeing a quote that the Dragon isn't always the Champion of the Light).

 

But that is not true - Rand did not have the memories until part way through the series.

 

We don't know that. I would say that Rand had those memories the entire time, but they were either internalized, supressed, or Rand just assumed they were his imagination. Remember, as Rand starts hearing the voice in his head, he is strangely accepting of it. Part of this is because he assumes he might already be going mad, but that still doesn't mean he shouldn't have freaked out the first time he heard LTT. The reason he doesn't freak out is because a part of him subconsciously realizes the voice is his own. Anyways too much of this is venturing into psychoanalysis of a fictional character, so the point is we don't really know he didn't have the memories the whole time.

 

While that is a difference (Rand's coming from his previous incarnation and Mat's from various people), I am not convinced it is a relevant difference. If each incarnation is a new person, then essentially both men have another man's memories in their head.

 

Whew at least I got you to concede on one point! I think I might smell blood... alright back to the point. You're using circular logic, you're saying because you believe every incarnation of someones soul to be a different person (which is a valid statement for everyone except Rand), then there's not really any difference between Rand and Mat in this case. Essentially, you're trying to use a technicality to try and keep yourself from slipping down the slippery slope you've set up. Even if you're not ready to admit Rand is LTT, it's still clear that he received his memories from an internal mechanism, and Mat received his from an external mechanism.

 

I disagree - I believe Mat has merged with his memories. They fill in the gaps in such a way as to essentially be indistinguishable from his own.

 

To believe that Mat has merged with his memories, you would have to imply that Mat has come to a cathartic kind of acceptance about them. He hasn't. While he has grown to tolerate them more, even to acknowledge their usefulness at times, he would still rather them be out of his head if he had the choice. I won't say that he'll never come to accept them, he might, but I find it unlikely as he is still so extremely resistant to them. There was only two choices for Rand: accept who he was (Rand/LTT) and save the world, or to continue to deny that part of himself and essentially deliver victory to the DO wrapped up in a red and black bow.

 

Again, I disagree - as I recall, Mat does feel all the emotions in those memories.

 

Hate to say it, but I'm going to have to place the burden of proof at your feet. I don't remember Mat ever empathizing with the memories, if you do try and find a quote which might show this. It would be a lot tougher for me to prove this point to you as I'd have to quote the entire series to you since I could possibly exclude a time when Mat does feel what the men in his memories felt.

 

Again, a difference, but not one I'm convinced is relevant. Why should the number of people one has memoreis from be considered important?

 

If Rand had memories from many men instead of himself in a past life, it's silly to think he could pick one of them out at random and say "I was that guy" and if he was able to see all past lives of the Dragon as a gift from the pattern, then I wouldn't believe them to all be the same person, just all Dragon's of past Ages. If the Pattern gave Rand memories of the last Dragon just to help him out, why not give him memories of other past Dragon's in case something else that happened in the myriad of other times a Dragon existed was pertinent to helping mankind? You're also ignoring my point of how the Pattern wanted the Dragon to come back as LTT because he would have a more vested interest in fixing what he messed up.

 

And I've already explained why I don't consider a soul to be important in this regard.

 

Again, circular logic. Just because you don't feel it's relevant doesn't mean it's not one of the differences between Rand and Mat's situation. Your argument for why the soul isn't relevant in this situation is that you don't feel the soul is relevant. You can believe whatever you want, but dismissing pieces of evidence just because they don't support your theory/belief isn't a good practice for a skilled debater. I've ackowledged arguments which didn't seem to directly support my belief, and attempted to justify their existence even if they seemed contrary to my beliefs (the RJ quote is a good example).

 

I must confess, I'm not sure what the difference is.

 

 

Have no worries, good sir, you're enlightenment is nearly at hand!

 

What is the difference between Rand and the Heroes? Both are tools, spun out by the Wheel to help correct drift in the Pattern. They are different tools, for different occasions, but all tools still. Rand might be a hammer, Birgitte a saw and Hawkwing a screwdriver. All are still tools.

 

As I said before, I don't consider the HotH to be tools like Rand. The Heroes are definitely unique compared to normal souls, but the main differences lie in their achievement and their existence in TAR in between lives. HotH are described as something any individual might attain; those respective souls might also be different in that they were stronger, more pure, or imprinted themselves more forcefully, but it's clear that the Pattern didn't weave them into itself in any more direct way than it weaves all other souls. Think of it like the agnostic swiss clockwork theory (I don't share it exactly but I definitely see it as a valid theory), The Creator, being pretty much very deterministic, weaves everything as it should so that everything flows smoothly in a system of order and then sits back and enjoys a caramel machiatto. The Dark One, representing chaos in this scenario, rears it's ugly head every few millenia, and starts to throw a wrench into the Swiss clock the Creator made. The Creator, sensing this, uses it's corrective tool (the Dragon) to fix it before things go awry. Startin to sound a lot like the jargon the Architect in the Matrix movie was spouting, but then again that story featured a messianic figure just like Rand (whoa, I know the True Power [that was a lame attempt in trying to portray Rand using Keanu Reeves voice])

 

 

P.S. See what you're makin me do now Mr. Ares? My jokes are gettin worse and worse! Just hear that sound of inevitability comin and succumb to my awesome powers of persuasion! <that's actually what I really look like btw, I'm Einstein reincarnated (and yes, we're the same person too)

 

 

P.P.S. I'm not really that conceited btw lol, just havin fun

[Mr Ares]

Just to be clear, I do not make any claims that the Dragonsoul develops into the same character every time. Just that this incarnation (Rand) is a rebirth of its immediate predecessor (LTT). Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Not the Dragonsoul reborn, but the Dragon (aka LTT). Rand retains only LTT's memories. Rand considers himself only as LTT. Not any other incarnations, older "Dragons" or otherwise.

 

Also, to dismiss the importance of the Dragonsoul is plain silly. While it's true just saying he's the Dragonsoul doesn't prove anything, it does justifiably separate him from any other soul. It's because of the Dragonsoul that Rand is One with the Land. That he's the strongest Ta'veren ever. That he can see into the souls of others. That the existence of the universe rests in his hands. Because of the Dragonsoul, Rand is unique and can do things no other character. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand loses all that. Take away the Dragonsoul and Rand becomes just another False Dragon, like Taim and Logain.

Ta'veren comes from the Wheel - it can make anyone ta'veren at any time, therefore on that point you are demonstrably wrong. The existence of the universe resting in his hands I will grant you, but I'm not sure that the other points are necessarily intrinsic qualities of his soul - we don't know that LTT could see into the souls of others for example, and we know Rand couldn't for most of this life.

The Dragonsoul comes from the Wheel as well, but I understand what you mean. Rand isn't the only Ta'veren and Ta'verenism is a different mechanic than HotH or Dragon. On the other hand, he is the strongest Ta'veren since, well, the last Dragon. And if Rand wasn't the Dragon and let's say Logain was, then Logain would be the strongest Ta'veren while Rand would be his non-Ta'veren sidekick. It's expected that the Wheel would have a vested interest in it's saviour. So while the two may operate on different mechanics, they really do go hand-in-hand.

 

About LTT seeing into souls of others, that we don't know. But I think it's safe to say Rand wouldn't be able to if he wasn't the Dragon.

As far as I can recall, Rand is generally considered the strongest ta'veren since Hawkwing - am I forgetting a quote saying he was definitely stronger than Hawkwing? Also, Rand was the Dragon for most of his life without being ta'veren - the two are not the same thing. It is entirely possible, in theory, that the Wheel could spin out a Dragon, and make his sidekick a super-strength ta'veren while the man himself wasn't.

 

 

Ta'veren comes from the Wheel - it can make anyone ta'veren at any time, therefore on that point you are demonstrably wrong. The existence of the universe resting in his hands I will grant you, but I'm not sure that the other points are necessarily intrinsic qualities of his soul - we don't know that LTT could see into the souls of others for example, and we know Rand couldn't for most of this life.

 

Some are definitely intrinsic properties of the soul, others might be indirect effects of Rand achieving enough zen focus or something after his epiphany that he has even more special abilities. That he's one with the land comes from the Dragonsoul obviously, there's not really any way for this to happen because Rand causes it to be so, or even because the Pattern wills it. If the Pattern were able to will someone else being tied to the land, in which case the state of the land would coincide with the state of that other random person, it would because it would be less of a gamble (Rand has definitely teetered on the point of instability for a long time). Instead, were stuck with the Dragon being tied to the land. That's one of the reasons the stakes are so high. As for the seeing into souls thing, we aren't sure of this but there are references to LTT thinking that some of the Forsaken couldn't be trusted before they turned to the Shadow. As for Rand not having this ability before, he very well could have but it might have been repressed.

It is possible for anyone to judge character in the manner you suggest - LTT thought some of the Chosen-to-be couldn't be trusted, but I can think the same of anyone. Either that doesn't help your case, or I'm the Dragon. Now, just because the Pattern didn't choose to make someone else one tih the land, doesn't mean it can't. It could be that there was no-one else suitable, especially at this late stage, with Prophecies already made. While the Dragon being one with the land is a property of the Rand incarnation, is there any indication it is a property of all incarnations of the soul? Or even any incarnation other than Rand?

 

The best authorities on LTT have vested interests in him still being around (save Ishy, who is insane), and even then the differences in personality are noted. So there are no reliable witnesses on the point.

 

I never said the other sources were reliable, they're just the best we have besides Rand. And the only differences they occassionally notice they chalk up to him not realizing who he is yet. Anyways, that's somewhat irrelevant anyways because I was simply responding to you using the Forsaken as a possible source to prove Rand is not LTT. In my opinion you don't really need any outside sources besides Rand's POV because it is so clearcut and dried that he is LTT. You might think he's wrong, crazy, or lying to others about this, but it's reaching in every case just in an attempt to make your beliefs about the nature of reincarnation in this series (which I'm not sure if you got from the quote by RJ or not) correlate to that which culminated from veins of gold. Look, outside of asking Mrs. Jordan, we can't know for sure if RJ intended for that scene to unfold like it did. He might not have meant for Rand to believe he was LTT. But for now we do have to settle for what is part of the story now, and it is obviously the author's intent (at least Sanderson's, and I would suspect RJ as well) to have us see Rand and LTT as the same person.

I have an interpretation that matches pretty well with RJ's, but is independent from it. I see no real reason why RJ's interpretation should be discarded. Some of the Chosen have a vested interest in Rand being LTT - outside of those, who among them believes the two to be the same? I'd say, reading between the lines, it's pretty clear that beliefs that the two are the same are not to be trusted. Therefore, why should we trust Rand's assessment? ToM is not all that clear on the issue, with Rand describing it as like a dream. So does he think of LTT as real or a dream? Rand's POV in VoG left some ambiguities that people hoped ToM would clear up. I'd say the case is not settled.

 

A pretty metaphor, but not one I'm sure the series supports. Why should I accept that the Dragonsoul is this brilliant light, while normal Heroes shine and normal souls are dim? I see no fundamental difference in the quality of the souls, and I think that in most cases we lack the evidence to say what a "normal" soul brings to the table, so we cannot say that the Dragonsoul imprints itself in a way other souls don't. The difference is that most souls are allowed to wander freely and do as they will, but Heroes (including the Dragon) are corrective measures. They are spun out for a particular purpose.

 

The series supports it because we see the DF commander of Maradon say pretty much exactly what I said. True, he says this after Rand channels enough to fuel several small countries to save the city, but I doubt that it really has to do with the amount of channeling involved (since as far as we know he doesn't have the ability to sense the OP). If any DF had this same reaction just because someone channeled an incredible amount, you would have have seen this many other points in the series. No, the man is reacting to seeing the Dragon reveal himself in all his glory (which he does when he has his WTFPWN moments), something which would probably screw up any DF. Siuan also backs me up when her Talent lets her pick Rand out of a crowd the first time she sees him in Fal Dara. When she's describing what she saw to Moiraine, her hyperbole lets us see that Rand's "ta'verenness" is so strong he is completely in a league of his own. This is because she is seeing the Dragon, and his level of ta'veren is simply incomparable to other ta'veren. One last source we get is from Min, and this is a little shakier because she sees auras fairly often, but it's clear throughout the series that whereas some people have more images than others (like Aes Sedai and ta'veren), nothing compares to how many she sees floating around Rand constantly. Plus she sees an ethereal glow about him after veins of gold.

Interesting that the light of the Dragonsoul is invisible to anyone save Darkfriends. So, when has a Darkfriend gazed upon Heroes in all their glory, in order for you to establish such a difference exists between them? What Siuan sees has nothing to do with Rand's Dragonsoul. She sees ta'veren - had she seen him before he became ta'veren, or after he ceases to be ta'veren, she would not see it. Ta'veren, of any strength, is not a fundamental part of any soul, including the Dragon's. And why are you so sure he would shine so much brighter than, say, Hawkwing, were the two ta'veren stood side by side? Min is, as you say, very shaky evidence - after all, if nothing else Rand is both channeler and ta'veren, as well as a Hero. One would expect to see a lot of images around him. This ethereal glow - I'm not convinced that things absent for most of Rand's life should automatically be considered intrinsic properties of his soul. The same with the memories and the blinding light at Maradon.

 

Something we can use as an indicator of what a normal soul brings to the table, use the multitude of random subcharacters pov, especially when compared to Rand's pov before he found out he was the Dragon. They pretty much just try to fulfill whatever role they've found themselves in, and don't try to go against the grain. Rand wants to believe he's normal, so for a long time he's struggling with both thinking he shouldn't have a part in all this, that he's just a lowly sheepherder, and knowing he has a higher destiny. This internal struggle of Rand's has pretty much everything to do with his abherrent behavior early on in the series and leading up to veins of gold.

Rand is ta'veren. Much like Perrin and Mat, and they are both dragged down roads they have no wish to travel as well. We have no indication their souls are abnormal. So normal souls can be dragged about by the Wheel in the way we see Rand dragged about.

 

Also, nothing indicates Heroes of the Horn were originally created as a form of a corrective measure.

Let me just top you right there. "RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern." From the interview database. So yeah, Heroes, like ta'veren, are corrective mechanisms used by the Pattern.

 

But that is not true - Rand did not have the memories until part way through the series.

We don't know that. I would say that Rand had those memories the entire time, but they were either internalized, supressed, or Rand just assumed they were his imagination. Remember, as Rand starts hearing the voice in his head, he is strangely accepting of it. Part of this is because he assumes he might already be going mad, but that still doesn't mean he shouldn't have freaked out the first time he heard LTT. The reason he doesn't freak out is because a part of him subconsciously realizes the voice is his own. Anyways too much of this is venturing into psychoanalysis of a fictional character, so the point is we don't really know he didn't have the memories the whole time.

Well, would you care to provide any evidence that he had them in the first three books?

 

While that is a difference (Rand's coming from his previous incarnation and Mat's from various people), I am not convinced it is a relevant difference. If each incarnation is a new person, then essentially both men have another man's memories in their head.

 

Whew at least I got you to concede on one point! I think I might smell blood... alright back to the point. You're using circular logic, you're saying because you believe every incarnation of someones soul to be a different person (which is a valid statement for everyone except Rand), then there's not really any difference between Rand and Mat in this case. Essentially, you're trying to use a technicality to try and keep yourself from slipping down the slippery slope you've set up. Even if you're not ready to admit Rand is LTT, it's still clear that he received his memories from an internal mechanism, and Mat received his from an external mechanism.

Well, the mechanism by which Rand recieved his memories has been debated - now, I'll grant you, I see it as being an internal mechanism (his madness) but others have argued that the Wheel gave them to him. The Wheel would be external. I even conceded that it is possible that the Wheel used the madness as the mechanism by which Rand gained the memories - so there would still be an external component. Now, either way, why is this a relevant consideration? Why is the mechanism by which Rand gains the memories important? They are the same person if they come from the Dragonsoul, but not if from madness or the Wheel? Or they are the same if from the soul and the Wheel but not madness? Divide it up however you like. We don't know how Rand got the memories, so I'd be cautious about that line of reasoning. Now, as you admit each incarnation is a different person, you have to show why Rand is different.

 

I disagree - I believe Mat has merged with his memories. They fill in the gaps in such a way as to essentially be indistinguishable from his own.

To believe that Mat has merged with his memories, you would have to imply that Mat has come to a cathartic kind of acceptance about them.

What would be needed is a seamless integration with his ow memories - which he has. He remembers these events as if they were happening to him, not someone else. Likewise, Rand remembers events as if they were happening to him, not someone else - therefore there is no fundamental difference. Would you care to show me evidence of Mat's continuing resistance?

 

Again, I disagree - as I recall, Mat does feel all the emotions in those memories.

 

Hate to say it, but I'm going to have to place the burden of proof at your feet. I don't remember Mat ever empathizing with the memories, if you do try and find a quote which might show this. It would be a lot tougher for me to prove this point to you as I'd have to quote the entire series to you since I could possibly exclude a time when Mat does feel what the men in his memories felt.

Hate to say it, but if you want me to go searching for quotes, it's probably not going to happen. I'm far too lazy. If I can think of a chapter that might support my point, I'll look it up and provide a quote, but I won't stumble around blind, i'll wait until I have some idea where to look. So I'll just say that it is my recollection that Mat remembers all these memories as if they were happening to him, and therefore would feel the corresponding emotions that those people felt as they happened.

 

Again, a difference, but not one I'm convinced is relevant. Why should the number of people one has memories from be considered important?

If Rand had memories from many men instead of himself in a past life, it's silly to think he could pick one of them out at random and say "I was that guy" and if he was able to see all past lives of the Dragon as a gift from the pattern, then I wouldn't believe them to all be the same person, just all Dragon's of past Ages. If the Pattern gave Rand memories of the last Dragon just to help him out, why not give him memories of other past Dragon's in case something else that happened in the myriad of other times a Dragon existed was pertinent to helping mankind? You're also ignoring my point of how the Pattern wanted the Dragon to come back as LTT because he would have a more vested interest in fixing what he messed up.

If Rand had memories from many men, he should either consider them all to be him, or just be himself with other men's memories. Same with Mat. Why is it that if Rand has memories only from one incarnation he is the same as his last incarnation, but if he had memories from a half dozen or so he would be a differen person to all of them? Seems rather arbitrary to me. Also, the Dragon did not come back as LTT. He was born as Rand. He grew up as Rand. The memories of LTT were a later addition, and, I would say, rather redundant. He was already interested in fixing things, as by that point he had already accepted himself as the Dragon. He would want to fix the taint in order to stop himself and others going mad and rotting - fixing his previous incarnation's mistake is rather less important. He would want to heal the Bore in order to stop Shai'tan breaking free, and destroying everyone and everything he loves. Fixing LTT's cock up pales into insignificance next to that. Therefore the Pattern has precious little need to bring LTT back - without him, Rand has as much reason to act.

 

And I've already explained why I don't consider a soul to be important in this regard.

Again, circular logic. Just because you don't feel it's relevant doesn't mean it's not one of the differences between Rand and Mat's situation.

It's a difference, but not a relevant one. Saying monkeys have tails and gorillas don't is indeed a difference between the two, but not relevant if we are discussing whether or not they would both drown if stuck in a weighted sack and tossed in a river. Simply pointing out differences is not enough - you have to show that those differences are relevant to the matter at hand.

Your argument for why the soul isn't relevant in this situation is that you don't feel the soul is relevant.

No, it's because a soul is merely a guideline and not an indicator of personhood. But let us put forward a hypothetical situation - what if a previous ncarnation of Mat's wandered into the ToG and struck a bargain with the Eelfinn. Those memories got stuck in Mat's head along with all the others. Now, given that one of the sets of memories, indistinguishable from the others, is of a previous incarnation of Mat's soul, does that change anything? I would say no - Mat has the memories of different people, and one of those different people is one he happened to share a soul with. He is not the same as that previous incarnation but different from all the others. So as a soul is not an indicator of personhood, then Rand and LTT sharing a soul but not Mat and his memories is not an important difference.

 

I must confess, I'm not sure what the difference is.

Have no worries, good sir, you're enlightenment is nearly at hand!

 

What is the difference between Rand and the Heroes? Both are tools, spun out by the Wheel to help correct drift in the Pattern. They are different tools, for different occasions, but all tools still. Rand might be a hammer, Birgitte a saw and Hawkwing a screwdriver. All are still tools.

 

As I said before, I don't consider the HotH to be tools like Rand. The Heroes are definitely unique compared to normal souls, but the main differences lie in their achievement and their existence in TAR in between lives. HotH are described as something any individual might attain; those respective souls might also be different in that they were stronger, more pure, or imprinted themselves more forcefully, but it's clear that the Pattern didn't weave them into itself in any more direct way than it weaves all other souls. Think of it like the agnostic swiss clockwork theory (I don't share it exactly but I definitely see it as a valid theory), The Creator, being pretty much very deterministic, weaves everything as it should so that everything flows smoothly in a system of order and then sits back and enjoys a caramel machiatto. The Dark One, representing chaos in this scenario, rears it's ugly head every few millenia, and starts to throw a wrench into the Swiss clock the Creator made. The Creator, sensing this, uses it's corrective tool (the Dragon) to fix it before things go awry. Startin to sound a lot like the jargon the Architect in the Matrix movie was spouting, but then again that story featured a messianic figure just like Rand (whoa, I know the True Power [that was a lame attempt in trying to portray Rand using Keanu Reeves voice])

Given that the Heroes being tools has been established, I have nothing to say here, save that this entire point is based on a false premise.

[FarShainMael]

Again, I disagree - as I recall, Mat does feel all the emotions in those memories.

 

Hate to say it, but I'm going to have to place the burden of proof at your feet. I don't remember Mat ever empathizing with the memories, if you do try and find a quote which might show this. It would be a lot tougher for me to prove this point to you as I'd have to quote the entire series to you since I could possibly exclude a time when Mat does feel what the men in his memories felt.

 

Hate to say it, but if you want me to go searching for quotes, it's probably not going to happen. I'm far too lazy. If I can think of a chapter that might support my point, I'll look it up and provide a quote, but I won't stumble around blind, i'll wait until I have some idea where to look. So I'll just say that it is my recollection that Mat remembers all these memories as if they were happening to him, and therefore would feel the corresponding emotions that those people felt as they happened.

 

Allow me to help you out (which way did you come in ? )

 

Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. "Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?"...

 

Mat's smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything? He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side wth both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out... With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing's face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encounters skittered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.

(emphasis as in book.)

[hazelkrs1]

As far as I can recall, Rand is generally considered the strongest ta'veren since Hawkwing - am I forgetting a quote saying he was definitely stronger than Hawkwing? Also, Rand was the Dragon for most of his life without being ta'veren - the two are not the same thing. It is entirely possible, in theory, that the Wheel could spin out a Dragon, and make his sidekick a super-strength ta'veren while the man himself wasn't.

 

A couple of people mention that he's the strongest ta'veren since Hawking early on in the series, but they either don't know he's the Dragon yet or underestimate his ta'vereness. It's clear later on he's the strongest ta'veren since the last Dragon, several characters mention this.

 

Ok here we have a pretty big hitch that I meant to cover earlier when I heard you mention it, but glad I caught it this time. Where do you get that Rand was ever NOT ta'veren?! I mean, if you want to go around believing random arbitrary things that should be evident to not be true, why not believe the Wheel turns Rand's ta'vereness off at nighttime so it can keep the power bill at a reasonable level. I mean wtf mate? Rand's been ta'veren since he was a little screaming baby on the slopes of Dragonmount; his presence alone gave Gitara Moroso a vision strong enough to kill her, gets himself rescued by some random passersby who will happen to care for him as if he was his own, and sets events in motion that eventually lead to Morraine rescuing him in the Two Rivers. How can you believe the Wheel suddenly makes him a ta'veren later on in life, when as a Dragonsoul infant he could easily not end up surviving due to harsh circumstances or some other random accident?

 

As for your hypothetical, it is not possible at all to have a Dragon that is not ta'veren. I could start a seperate thread to have a poll about this if you like, but I'm pretty sure that's unneccesary. The Dragon is the most important soul in existence, there's no way it's not ta'veren every single time. Not just because the Wheel would decide to do this everytime, but because it's part of it's nature. I think you've become confused with how seperate mechanisms in the novel work; you assume all the seperate abilities of Rand's to be independant phenomena (eg Dragonsoul, ta'veren, memories, channeling ability) when they are all connected to the fact that he's the Dragon Reborn.

 

It is possible for anyone to judge character in the manner you suggest - LTT thought some of the Chosen-to-be couldn't be trusted, but I can think the same of anyone. Either that doesn't help your case, or I'm the Dragon. Now, just because the Pattern didn't choose to make someone else one tih the land, doesn't mean it can't. It could be that there was no-one else suitable, especially at this late stage, with Prophecies already made. While the Dragon being one with the land is a property of the Rand incarnation, is there any indication it is a property of all incarnations of the soul? Or even any incarnation other than Rand?

 

Of course it's possible, I'm simply showing how LTT might have also had this ability. Something is starting to worry me here. Either you're viewing this argument in a disjointed manner (addressing my arguments without considering how your comments correlate to the entire train of quotes/responses) or you're having problems with the difference between two things being related, and a causal relationship. You said Rand now has this ability (reading souls thing) but LTT didn't, I was showing how it's possible he did. Furthermore, I'm saying that it's possible that the reading souls thing (judging character, but in a grander way) is a property of the Dragonsoul, as in if you're the Dragon, you can do it, but that doesn't mean anyone who has this ability all of a sudden is the Dragon. That's absurd, like saying the President makes tough decisions, so if someone else makes a tough decision, they're now president.

 

As for the tied-to-the-land thing, there's noone else suitable for the Pattern to pick? Really? It can't pick John Q. RandomRandlander who happens to always be in a pretty normal state, and whose life never fluctuates too much? If anything, Rand is probably the last one to pick for this job, the future of mankind already rests on the needlepoint which is his sanity (until VoG), why also connect the land to such a tumultuous individual if it didn't need to?

 

I have an interpretation that matches pretty well with RJ's, but is independent from it. I see no real reason why RJ's interpretation should be discarded. Some of the Chosen have a vested interest in Rand being LTT - outside of those, who among them believes the two to be the same? I'd say, reading between the lines, it's pretty clear that beliefs that the two are the same are not to be trusted. Therefore, why should we trust Rand's assessment? ToM is not all that clear on the issue, with Rand describing it as like a dream. So does he think of LTT as real or a dream? Rand's POV in VoG left some ambiguities that people hoped ToM would clear up. I'd say the case is not settled.

 

Once again, breaks in your logic are becoming a pattern (a pattern which perhaps might weave in a dragonsoul to save your arguments). So the Forsaken aren't the best source on whether Rand is LTT. Suddenly this means we shouldn't trust Rand's assessment? Huh? Rand aint the Forsaken sweetheart, he's Rand, and thusly is a pretty good source on the matter. Also, ToM is extremely clear on this subject. Reread it.

 

Interesting that the light of the Dragonsoul is invisible to anyone save Darkfriends. So, when has a Darkfriend gazed upon Heroes in all their glory, in order for you to establish such a difference exists between them? What Siuan sees has nothing to do with Rand's Dragonsoul. She sees ta'veren - had she seen him before he became ta'veren, or after he ceases to be ta'veren, she would not see it. Ta'veren, of any strength, is not a fundamental part of any soul, including the Dragon's. And why are you so sure he would shine so much brighter than, say, Hawkwing, were the two ta'veren stood side by side? Min is, as you say, very shaky evidence - after all, if nothing else Rand is both channeler and ta'veren, as well as a Hero. One would expect to see a lot of images around him. This ethereal glow - I'm not convinced that things absent for most of Rand's life should automatically be considered intrinsic properties of his soul. The same with the memories and the blinding light at Maradon.

 

I was using all these to help support a hypothetical scenario, so they don't have to be inescapable proofs to support it; just the fact that I gave you 3 different examples tends to lend credence to the whole aura thing. Once again, where do you get that ta'veren isn't a fundamental part of the soul? And don't ask me to try and prove this, I'm fairly sure that the vast majority pick up on this pretty quickly after starting to read this series. The ethereal glow came about once Rand TRULY accepted his place in the world (that he's LTT), in other words this entire time he had the potential but finally realized it. If you're familiar with the idea of repressed memories you can easily see how something can be hidden deep inside you even without you being aware, that doesn't mean it doesnt exist.

 

Rand is ta'veren. Much like Perrin and Mat, and they are both dragged down roads they have no wish to travel as well. We have no indication their souls are abnormal. So normal souls can be dragged about by the Wheel in the way we see Rand dragged about.

 

 

When they are pulled in whatever direction the wheel needs them, they are directed by either their own nature, or by outside circumstances, most of the time the former though I'd say. For instance the Band of the Red Hand pretty much starts because Mat wants to avoid being killed. Perrin isn't convinced or pulled into starting an alliance with the Seanchan by the Pattern, he's simply using the tools he has at hand to solve the problem of rescuing Faile. Their lives are certainly pulled in different directions so they can both satisfy prophecy and achieve utility, but they are still drawn by their very nature (duty, honor, loyalty, etc.) which happens to be pretty heroic.

 

Let me just top you right there. "RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern." From the interview database. So yeah, Heroes, like ta'veren, are corrective mechanisms used by the Pattern.

 

 

I stand corrected. I still don't view the HotH to be that comparable to the Dragonsoul though. Using the tools analogy a bit more, the HotH are cheap screwdrivers and blunt objects, the Dragonsoul would be some kind of crazy dremel tool or something way better than that, you catch my drift.

 

Well, would you care to provide any evidence that he had them in the first three books?

 

 

Evidence of the memories, or of LTT's presence in his head at all? I consider them to be pretty much interchangeable, and Rand first starts feeling an odd presence in his mind at the start of the Great Hunt, which is right after he finds out he's the Dragon.

 

Well, the mechanism by which Rand recieved his memories has been debated - now, I'll grant you, I see it as being an internal mechanism (his madness) but others have argued that the Wheel gave them to him. The Wheel would be external. I even conceded that it is possible that the Wheel used the madness as the mechanism by which Rand gained the memories - so there would still be an external component. Now, either way, why is this a relevant consideration? Why is the mechanism by which Rand gains the memories important? They are the same person if they come from the Dragonsoul, but not if from madness or the Wheel? Or they are the same if from the soul and the Wheel but not madness? Divide it up however you like. We don't know how Rand got the memories, so I'd be cautious about that line of reasoning. Now, as you admit each incarnation is a different person, you have to show why Rand is different.

 

 

I consider them to be part of him the entire time, since rebirth, just repressed until he finds out he's the Dragon. And this is a result of the Wheel weaving the Dragon in with the consciousness of LTT. Yet, I still find this to be an internal mechanism because I don't look at the Wheel as being independent from this world but being a part of it. In other words, just about any effect the Wheel has on the world would be considered internal because it is making these effects from within the souls themselves. It's semantics possibly, but why we might classify the source of his memories differently.

 

The reason this distinction becomes important is because if the memories and LTT's essence comes from the Dragonsoul, it's still coming from the Wheel. And incidentally, madness wouldn't be able to randomly spawn someone else's memories inside your head, that's not how it works. It can make you see strange stuff, but are you questioning the authenticity of Rand's memories? That they aren't LTT's at all, but just what his mind would project as what LTT might remember? If not, then there's no way in which it could be possible the memories are a product of his madness.

 

What would be needed is a seamless integration with his ow memories - which he has. He remembers these events as if they were happening to him, not someone else. Likewise, Rand remembers events as if they were happening to him, not someone else - therefore there is no fundamental difference. Would you care to show me evidence of Mat's continuing resistance?

 

 

Nope. For it to be seamless, he wouldn't be able to tell the differences between his memories and his own. He'd be thinking that Hawking resurrected from the dead just so they could have a chance encounter and whatnot. No, they're definitely alien to him still. And as for evidence, look to how much he curses the Finn's for giving him the memories all over ToM. He hates them for being evasive, and for hanging him for sure, but he always saves the worst curse for them for last when he mentions the memories in his head. Also, of course he remembers the events as if they happened to him; as I said before it's ridiculous to think you'd have memories in the third person somehow. Yet he still knows even though those things happened to "him" in the first person in the memory, they were completely different people it actually happened to.

 

Hate to say it, but if you want me to go searching for quotes, it's probably not going to happen. I'm far too lazy. If I can think of a chapter that might support my point, I'll look it up and provide a quote, but I won't stumble around blind, i'll wait until I have some idea where to look. So I'll just say that it is my recollection that Mat remembers all these memories as if they were happening to him, and therefore would feel the corresponding emotions that those people felt as they happened.

 

 

That's completely ok (for you to be lazy), but if you refuse to support your arguments, you have to concede them. I can stubbornly insist that I dinstinctly remember the Dragon actually being a pink fairy named Steve, but if I just say "trust me, it was in there" then I'd be a fool.

 

Just because Mat remembers the memories as happening to him doesn't mean he empathizes with them. Just because you watch a movie doesn't mean you immediately feel what the protagonist if feeling. That's what the memories are like for Mat, it's as if he had tons of movies downloaded straight to his noggin from netflix.

 

If Rand had memories from many men, he should either consider them all to be him, or just be himself with other men's memories. Same with Mat. Why is it that if Rand has memories only from one incarnation he is the same as his last incarnation, but if he had memories from a half dozen or so he would be a differen person to all of them? Seems rather arbitrary to me. Also, the Dragon did not come back as LTT. He was born as Rand. He grew up as Rand. The memories of LTT were a later addition, and, I would say, rather redundant. He was already interested in fixing things, as by that point he had already accepted himself as the Dragon. He would want to fix the taint in order to stop himself and others going mad and rotting - fixing his previous incarnation's mistake is rather less important. He would want to heal the Bore in order to stop Shai'tan breaking free, and destroying everyone and everything he loves. Fixing LTT's cock up pales into insignificance next to that. Therefore the Pattern has precious little need to bring LTT back - without him, Rand has as much reason to act.

 

 

If he had memories from many men, it would be much more likely to have been what I said, just the Pattern trying to give him stuff to recall from past lives os he'd have an edge against the DO. The combination of memories, LTT's voice, and the idea of disgust with himself because of what LTT had done, all imply that it was important that all the successes/failures of LTT's life be carried over for some signifigant event. And why would the author implant something as big a component of the story as this if it was a redundancy? It's obvious that there's a reason he has the memories and feelings of LTT. Probably because it does give him extra mettle in some way. Why would he care about the taint if he thought he was dying at the Last Battle anyways, if he didn't consider the taint to be his fault? And without the Dragon being reborn as LTT, it's possible that Rand would have either failed in the same manner that LTT did, or perhaps far worse. Seems like this time the Pattern wants the DO truly sealed (at least till the third age comes again and AS decide to uncover this strange new power source theyve suddenly discovered...) and the best way to achieve that is to have the guy who didn't quite do it right the first time come back and do it the right way.

 

It's a difference, but not a relevant one. Saying monkeys have tails and gorillas don't is indeed a difference between the two, but not relevant if we are discussing whether or not they would both drown if stuck in a weighted sack and tossed in a river. Simply pointing out differences is not enough - you have to show that those differences are relevant to the matter at hand.

 

Um, no, pointing out differences is pretty much enough if you look at them all together. We could compare an apple to orange, and after listing enough differences, you'd have to end up concluding "hmm, I guess I'm holding two different things." Saying Rand and Mat's situation is the same because of one thing (strange memories) even though there are a myriad of other ways in which they're fundamentally different would be ignorant. And it's definitely fundamentally different if in one case there's a shared soul scenario and the other there isn't. Just because you don't find souls to be relevant doesn't mean there's no signifigant difference there. I'm worried you're bringing your own theological views into the matter when it comes to judging the importance of souls, but we are analyzing a work of fiction which lays out certain notions about the world that we have to accept as facts, such as the existence of souls in the first place when in the real world some people debate that.

 

No, it's because a soul is merely a guideline and not an indicator of personhood. But let us put forward a hypothetical situation - what if a previous ncarnation of Mat's wandered into the ToG and struck a bargain with the Eelfinn. Those memories got stuck in Mat's head along with all the others. Now, given that one of the sets of memories, indistinguishable from the others, is of a previous incarnation of Mat's soul, does that change anything? I would say no - Mat has the memories of different people, and one of those different people is one he happened to share a soul with. He is not the same as that previous incarnation but different from all the others. So as a soul is not an indicator of personhood, then Rand and LTT sharing a soul but not Mat and his memories is not an important difference.

 

 

Ugh here we go with the circular logic again. Once again, you're attempting to argue the point of whether Rand is LTT or not using Mat's predicament, when it's been established that I do not believe them to be even close to the same thing. Sigh. In that hypothetical scenario though, even if Mat had that memory of a past incarnation of his soul jumbled in between the others, he probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and the others simply because all he's getting is memories, that's it. In Rand's case he got a lot more than memories, and he (eventually comes to) knows they aren't just some random person's memories anyways.

 

As for your last point, I accept that HotH are similar to Rand in that they're both tools of the Pattern, but as I said before I still think they're still very different and frankly, I don't want to start listing out those differences either because all this stuff keeps getting further and further away from the point, and because I find it ridiculous that I should have to break down why so many things are different from Rand when it should be clear. Comparisons can be made between him and everything from Heroes to hand grenades, but the truth is his situation is still different from everything else in this series.

[Mr Ares]

As far as I can recall, Rand is generally considered the strongest ta'veren since Hawkwing - am I forgetting a quote saying he was definitely stronger than Hawkwing? Also, Rand was the Dragon for most of his life without being ta'veren - the two are not the same thing. It is entirely possible, in theory, that the Wheel could spin out a Dragon, and make his sidekick a super-strength ta'veren while the man himself wasn't.

 

A couple of people mention that he's the strongest ta'veren since Hawking early on in the series, but they either don't know he's the Dragon yet or underestimate his ta'vereness. It's clear later on he's the strongest ta'veren since the last Dragon, several characters mention this.

 

Ok here we have a pretty big hitch that I meant to cover earlier when I heard you mention it, but glad I caught it this time. Where do you get that Rand was ever NOT ta'veren?!

Well, I found RJ saying that no-one is born ta'veren to be fairly compelling, myself. Who mentions that he is the strongest since the last Dragon?

 

As for your hypothetical, it is not possible at all to have a Dragon that is not ta'veren.

Why not? I'm going to have to see some evidence ot support that.

The Dragon is the most important soul in existence, there's no way it's not ta'veren every single time.

Aside from sepnding the majority of this incarnation not being ta'veren, it can also be spun out at times when the world doesn't need saving, therefore there would be no pressing need for ta'veren. Here's another one from the interview databse:

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

I think you've become confused with how seperate mechanisms in the novel work; you assume all the seperate abilities of Rand's to be independant phenomena (eg Dragonsoul, ta'veren, memories, channeling ability) when they are all connected to the fact that he's the Dragon Reborn.

It's not confusion, it's a fundamental disagreement. The Dragonsoul is the soul of a Hero. The ability to channel comes with it. Ta'veren is wholly separate. Memories are unrelated.

 

It is possible for anyone to judge character in the manner you suggest - LTT thought some of the Chosen-to-be couldn't be trusted, but I can think the same of anyone. Either that doesn't help your case, or I'm the Dragon. Now, just because the Pattern didn't choose to make someone else one tih the land, doesn't mean it can't. It could be that there was no-one else suitable, especially at this late stage, with Prophecies already made. While the Dragon being one with the land is a property of the Rand incarnation, is there any indication it is a property of all incarnations of the soul? Or even any incarnation other than Rand?

 

Of course it's possible, I'm simply showing how LTT might have also had this ability. Something is starting to worry me here. Either you're viewing this argument in a disjointed manner (addressing my arguments without considering how your comments correlate to the entire train of quotes/responses) or you're having problems with the difference between two things being related, and a causal relationship. You said Rand now has this ability (reading souls thing) but LTT didn't, I was showing how it's possible he did.

I'm saying there's nothing to support that he did. What you describe in LTT is nothing unusual.

 

As for the tied-to-the-land thing, there's noone else suitable for the Pattern to pick?

Well, given that we do not understand the mechanisms underlying this, we really can't say. Why Rand? Did it have to be him, or could it just give it to anyone? Once given to Rand, how easy is it to change?

 

I have an interpretation that matches pretty well with RJ's, but is independent from it. I see no real reason why RJ's interpretation should be discarded. Some of the Chosen have a vested interest in Rand being LTT - outside of those, who among them believes the two to be the same? I'd say, reading between the lines, it's pretty clear that beliefs that the two are the same are not to be trusted. Therefore, why should we trust Rand's assessment? ToM is not all that clear on the issue, with Rand describing it as like a dream. So does he think of LTT as real or a dream? Rand's POV in VoG left some ambiguities that people hoped ToM would clear up. I'd say the case is not settled.

 

Once again, breaks in your logic are becoming a pattern (a pattern which perhaps might weave in a dragonsoul to save your arguments). So the Forsaken aren't the best source on whether Rand is LTT.

No, the Chosen with a vested interest in the two being the same are not the best source. Others - such as Semi, Graendal, Asmo, and most of the others, would be more reliable on this point. And I still don't think ToM is particularly clear. The one Rand PoV has nothing useful, while his own statements vary. So Rand's POV cannot be used to help you, particularly.

 

Interesting that the light of the Dragonsoul is invisible to anyone save Darkfriends. So, when has a Darkfriend gazed upon Heroes in all their glory, in order for you to establish such a difference exists between them? What Siuan sees has nothing to do with Rand's Dragonsoul. She sees ta'veren - had she seen him before he became ta'veren, or after he ceases to be ta'veren, she would not see it. Ta'veren, of any strength, is not a fundamental part of any soul, including the Dragon's. And why are you so sure he would shine so much brighter than, say, Hawkwing, were the two ta'veren stood side by side? Min is, as you say, very shaky evidence - after all, if nothing else Rand is both channeler and ta'veren, as well as a Hero. One would expect to see a lot of images around him. This ethereal glow - I'm not convinced that things absent for most of Rand's life should automatically be considered intrinsic properties of his soul. The same with the memories and the blinding light at Maradon.

 

I was using all these to help support a hypothetical scenario, so they don't have to be inescapable proofs to support it; just the fact that I gave you 3 different examples tends to lend credence to the whole aura thing.

Except when all three break down. You state the Drognsoul is different to Heroes, but are unable to support it, you are unable to support ta'veren being an intrinsic propterty of the soul, and Min doesn't really support anything.

Once again, where do you get that ta'veren isn't a fundamental part of the soul? And don't ask me to try and prove this, I'm fairly sure that the vast majority pick up on this pretty quickly after starting to read this series.

Actually, I am going to ask you to support it.

The ethereal glow came about once Rand TRULY accepted his place in the world (that he's LTT), in other words this entire time he had the potential but finally realized it.

Can I have some quotes on this ethereal glow?

 

Rand is ta'veren. Much like Perrin and Mat, and they are both dragged down roads they have no wish to travel as well. We have no indication their souls are abnormal. So normal souls can be dragged about by the Wheel in the way we see Rand dragged about.

 

When they are pulled in whatever direction the wheel needs them, they are directed by either their own nature, or by outside circumstances, most of the time the former though I'd say. For instance the Band of the Red Hand pretty much starts because Mat wants to avoid being killed. Perrin isn't convinced or pulled into starting an alliance with the Seanchan by the Pattern, he's simply using the tools he has at hand to solve the problem of rescuing Faile. Their lives are certainly pulled in different directions so they can both satisfy prophecy and achieve utility, but they are still drawn by their very nature (duty, honor, loyalty, etc.) which happens to be pretty heroic.

I'm not sure what relevance this has to what we were talking about?

 

Well, would you care to provide any evidence that he had them in the first three books?

 

Evidence of the memories, or of LTT's presence in his head at all? I consider them to be pretty much interchangeable, and Rand first starts feeling an odd presence in his mind at the start of the Great Hunt, which is right after he finds out he's the Dragon.

A reference? Or a quote?

 

End of part 1

[Mr Ares]

Part 2.

 

Well, the mechanism by which Rand recieved his memories has been debated - now, I'll grant you, I see it as being an internal mechanism (his madness) but others have argued that the Wheel gave them to him. The Wheel would be external. I even conceded that it is possible that the Wheel used the madness as the mechanism by which Rand gained the memories - so there would still be an external component. Now, either way, why is this a relevant consideration? Why is the mechanism by which Rand gains the memories important? They are the same person if they come from the Dragonsoul, but not if from madness or the Wheel? Or they are the same if from the soul and the Wheel but not madness? Divide it up however you like. We don't know how Rand got the memories, so I'd be cautious about that line of reasoning. Now, as you admit each incarnation is a different person, you have to show why Rand is different.

 

I consider them to be part of him the entire time, since rebirth, just repressed until he finds out he's the Dragon. And this is a result of the Wheel weaving the Dragon in with the consciousness of LTT. Yet, I still find this to be an internal mechanism because I don't look at the Wheel as being independent from this world but being a part of it.

So the Wheel is a part of the world. I see. I misunderstood your definitions then - by internal and external, I thought you meant in relation to the people involved (thus the memories are granted by a mechanism within Rand but outside of Mat). Given that the Finns are a part of the Pattern, they are, like the Wheel, Mat, Rand, and everything else that isn't Shai'tan or the Creator, an internal mechanism by this definition. So both Mat and Rand receive memories via internal mechanisms. Glad we could clear that up.

 

The reason this distinction becomes important is because if the memories and LTT's essence comes from the Dragonsoul, it's still coming from the Wheel. And incidentally, madness wouldn't be able to randomly spawn someone else's memories inside your head, that's not how it works.

I direct your attention to KoD, the chapter being entitled A Plain Wooden Box. According to Semi, it's madness.

 

What would be needed is a seamless integration with his ow memories - which he has. He remembers these events as if they were happening to him, not someone else. Likewise, Rand remembers events as if they were happening to him, not someone else - therefore there is no fundamental difference. Would you care to show me evidence of Mat's continuing resistance?

 

Nope. For it to be seamless, he wouldn't be able to tell the differences between his memories and his own. He'd be thinking that Hawking resurrected from the dead just so they could have a chance encounter and whatnot.

Because his memories destroy his sense of time? When Rand remembers LTT stuff is he as confused?

And as for evidence, look to how much he curses the Finn's for giving him the memories all over ToM.

Such as...? And when before that?

Also, of course he remembers the events as if they happened to him; as I said before it's ridiculous to think you'd have memories in the third person somehow. Yet he still knows even though those things happened to "him" in the first person in the memory, they were completely different people it actually happened to.

Exactly the same as Rand.

 

Hate to say it, but if you want me to go searching for quotes, it's probably not going to happen. I'm far too lazy. If I can think of a chapter that might support my point, I'll look it up and provide a quote, but I won't stumble around blind, i'll wait until I have some idea where to look. So I'll just say that it is my recollection that Mat remembers all these memories as if they were happening to him, and therefore would feel the corresponding emotions that those people felt as they happened.

 

That's completely ok (for you to be lazy), but if you refuse to support your arguments, you have to concede them.

Then by the same toekn, you must concede the mass of arguments you have failed to support. That's a double edged sword, that one. Plus, of course, FarShainMael did pop in with a supporting quote. I may be lazy, but I can usually rely on a glamorous assistant. So I have my supporting evidence. Where's yours?

 

Just because Mat remembers the memories as happening to him doesn't mean he empathizes with them. Just because you watch a movie doesn't mean you immediately feel what the protagonist if feeling. That's what the memories are like for Mat, it's as if he had tons of movies downloaded straight to his noggin from netflix.

Yes, excatly like watching a movie, only completely different. This is not like watching a movie, so much as having the events of the movie happen to you, remembering the events of the movie as if they happened to you. Now, if you experience everything that someone else is experiencing, I'd say that's pretty empathetic. Although, granted, I'm speaking from the position of someone who doesn't empathise all that much.

 

If Rand had memories from many men, he should either consider them all to be him, or just be himself with other men's memories. Same with Mat. Why is it that if Rand has memories only from one incarnation he is the same as his last incarnation, but if he had memories from a half dozen or so he would be a differen person to all of them? Seems rather arbitrary to me. Also, the Dragon did not come back as LTT. He was born as Rand. He grew up as Rand. The memories of LTT were a later addition, and, I would say, rather redundant. He was already interested in fixing things, as by that point he had already accepted himself as the Dragon. He would want to fix the taint in order to stop himself and others going mad and rotting - fixing his previous incarnation's mistake is rather less important. He would want to heal the Bore in order to stop Shai'tan breaking free, and destroying everyone and everything he loves. Fixing LTT's cock up pales into insignificance next to that. Therefore the Pattern has precious little need to bring LTT back - without him, Rand has as much reason to act.

 

If he had memories from many men, it would be much more likely to have been what I said, just the Pattern trying to give him stuff to recall from past lives os he'd have an edge against the DO. The combination of memories, LTT's voice, and the idea of disgust with himself because of what LTT had done, all imply that it was important that all the successes/failures of LTT's life be carried over for some signifigant event. And why would the author implant something as big a component of the story as this if it was a redundancy? It's obvious that there's a reason he has the memories and feelings of LTT. Probably because it does give him extra mettle in some way. Why would he care about the taint if he thought he was dying at the Last Battle anyways, if he didn't consider the taint to be his fault?

Well, because if he doesn't fix the taint, he'll go madder and madder, and so will all the Asha'man. For one thing, you can really use that as a motivational tool - no more insanity! You only risk your life, not your mind! For another, basic compassion. Thousands of men will go insane and die on his behalf and he had a chance to stop it. Next to that, fixing his own cock up is really quite minor, unless he's a massive egotist.

And without the Dragon being reborn as LTT, it's possible that Rand would have either failed in the same manner that LTT did, or perhaps far worse. Seems like this time the Pattern wants the DO truly sealed (at least till the third age comes again and AS decide to uncover this strange new power source theyve suddenly discovered...) and the best way to achieve that is to have the guy who didn't quite do it right the first time come back and do it the right way.

The important part of that is the doing it the right way, not the person doing it. Having the knowledge might be useful, but how is LTT's personality? I suspect that's in there because RJ felt it made for better storytelling.

 

Um, no, pointing out differences is pretty much enough if you look at them all together. We could compare an apple to orange, and after listing enough differences, you'd have to end up concluding "hmm, I guess I'm holding two different things."

But if what we are discussing is whether both are fruit... well, none of those differences matter all that much.

Saying Rand and Mat's situation is the same because of one thing (strange memories) even though there are a myriad of other ways in which they're fundamentally different would be ignorant.

But I'm saying they're not fundamentally different, only superficially so.

 

No, it's because a soul is merely a guideline and not an indicator of personhood. But let us put forward a hypothetical situation - what if a previous ncarnation of Mat's wandered into the ToG and struck a bargain with the Eelfinn. Those memories got stuck in Mat's head along with all the others. Now, given that one of the sets of memories, indistinguishable from the others, is of a previous incarnation of Mat's soul, does that change anything? I would say no - Mat has the memories of different people, and one of those different people is one he happened to share a soul with. He is not the same as that previous incarnation but different from all the others. So as a soul is not an indicator of personhood, then Rand and LTT sharing a soul but not Mat and his memories is not an important difference.

 

Ugh here we go with the circular logic again. Once again, you're attempting to argue the point of whether Rand is LTT or not using Mat's predicament, when it's been established that I do not believe them to be even close to the same thing.

No, that's not circular logic. It's a hypothetical arguemtn to show they are not so different.

In that hypothetical scenario though, even if Mat had that memory of a past incarnation of his soul jumbled in between the others, he probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and the others simply because all he's getting is memories, that's it.

So souls are unimportant. By your own logic. What is important is personality and knowledge.

[Dream]

As far as I can recall, Rand is generally considered the strongest ta'veren since Hawkwing - am I forgetting a quote saying he was definitely stronger than Hawkwing? Also, Rand was the Dragon for most of his life without being ta'veren - the two are not the same thing. It is entirely possible, in theory, that the Wheel could spin out a Dragon, and make his sidekick a super-strength ta'veren while the man himself wasn't.

Sorry, I'm not one of those quote-people and I just go off of memory (flawed as it is) so I don't have any quote. I seem to recall someone mentioning that Rand was the strongest. Maybe it was Moiraine? when she was comparing Mat? to Hawkwing? Of course, they might be wrong or something. I don't think there was a definitive Ta'veren strength ranking (unless it's in the BWB?). It's all speculation but IMO it's reasonable to assume Ta'veren strength is proportional to expected achievement. So a peasant king < unifying most of Randland < saving the universe.

 

As to a super-strength Ta'veren sidekick, it's possible, just like a Ta'veren darkfriend is technically possible, but the question is why? Neither are likely ever to happen. So as I said earlier, while the two may operate on indepedent mechanisms they still go together hand-in-hand. Controlling the Dragon, and that's what Ta'veren basically is for, is priority number one for the Wheel.

 

 

 

Aside from sepnding the majority of this incarnation not being ta'veren, it can also be spun out at times when the world doesn't need saving, therefore there would be no pressing need for ta'veren. Here's another one from the interview databse:

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

I know you're answering a different question but it needs to be pointed out that when the "Dragonsoul" is spun out "when the world doesn't need saving, [and] therefore there would be no pressing need for ta'veren," RJ specifically calls this a non-Dragon incarnation. Further evidence that Dragon and super Ta'veren go hand-in-hand.

[jahnfriederik]

I dispute the rationality of this discussion argument. Honestly, you're debating whether LTT and Rand are the same person, and therefore deserve the same titles etc. It's a book. People in real life are either not reincarnated or have no memories of their past lives, therefore in real life we are not accountable for anything but our "current" lives. In the WoT, which by the way is a fantasy novel, this is entirely up to the Creator (i.e. Robert Jordan).

 

One interesting point someone raised was that Rand had to integrate with LTT to overcome his madness. But if you think about it, it's more likely that, within the world of "fantasy rules" (you know - the hero has to come as close to death as possible before victory; important characters have to die in the climactic scene, etc.) it makes more sense that Rand had to start going mad in order to gain use of LTT's memories. I mean, he could've got them from the Finns, or in Rhuidean, but that would've been too easy: this way he got to be tested, came within inches of descending into -- I'd say the Shadow rather than madness, to be honest. Remember Graendel's instructions to cause him suffering? Rand needed to be able to feel at Tarmon Gai'don for the Light to be victorious, needed to understand not just what he was doing but why. That's his journey. Somewhere in ToM - I think a Forsaken says it - the idea that the DO works in ways much more complex than brute force is raised. Part of the battle is on the field, against physical armies, but in the past few books, at least in Rand's thread of the story, we have been watching a battle for Rand's soul. And the Creator won, it is implied, because of how Rand was raised: almost as different from a Prince as you can be. (And look at how Elayne turned out :P)

 

PS - Egwene falls into the category of people-who-become-intolerable-when-raised-to-the-Amyrlin-Seat. Siuan's all right now she's left...

 

[took out the second PPS because I realized it didn't make sense at all with the ideas of heaven and hell. trust an atheist to miss something like that, i seriously thought some christians believed in reincarnation for a second. oops.]

[Mr Ares]

As far as I can recall, Rand is generally considered the strongest ta'veren since Hawkwing - am I forgetting a quote saying he was definitely stronger than Hawkwing? Also, Rand was the Dragon for most of his life without being ta'veren - the two are not the same thing. It is entirely possible, in theory, that the Wheel could spin out a Dragon, and make his sidekick a super-strength ta'veren while the man himself wasn't.

Sorry, I'm not one of those quote-people and I just go off of memory (flawed as it is) so I don't have any quote.

I'm the same, so I'll forgive you. Seems to me that judging relative strengths of ta'veren over such time periods would involve at least some element of guesswork anyway, so we can't really say for sure unless there's an RJ or BS quote that I'm not aware of.

 

 

Aside from sepnding the majority of this incarnation not being ta'veren, it can also be spun out at times when the world doesn't need saving, therefore there would be no pressing need for ta'veren. Here's another one from the interview databse:

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

I know you're answering a different question but it needs to be pointed out that when the "Dragonsoul" is spun out "when the world doesn't need saving, [and] therefore there would be no pressing need for ta'veren," RJ specifically calls this a non-Dragon incarnation. Further evidence that Dragon and super Ta'veren go hand-in-hand.

While it is a non-Dragon incarnation, it is still the same soul. So that is an indicator that ta'veren wouldn't be included as part and parcel of the soul. I do agree that making the Dragon a ta'veren is very likely, I just think that this is something the Wheel has added to him in each life where it is needed, for the time it is needed, not an inherent property of himself.

 

 

I dispute the rationality of this discussion argument. Honestly, you're debating whether LTT and Rand are the same person, and therefore deserve the same titles etc. It's a book.

Thank you for pointing that out. We were completely unaware. Strange that there would be discussion of a fantasy book series on a site devoted to a fantasy book series.

[hazelkrs1]

I dispute the rationality of this discussion argument. Honestly, you're debating whether LTT and Rand are the same person, and therefore deserve the same titles etc. It's a book.

Thank you for pointing that out. We were completely unaware. Strange that there would be discussion of a fantasy book series on a site devoted to a fantasy book series.

 

Our argument, as far as I was aware, had nothing to do with culpability from a past life. The idea is absurd and I was never trying to argue that. Our argument was about whether Rand is LTT or not.

 

Mr. Ares, I've frankly lost any steam that might have been driving me initially in this argument. You of course can draw whatever conclusions you can on this subject, but frankly in reading your responses to my arguments I have been induced to rolling my eyes to absolutely epic proportions and Im worried that they'll roll right out of my head if we continue in this thread. Incidentally, I'm not sure if you enjoy playing the devil's advocate in a debate (in the sense of arguing points merely for the sake of contradiction so as to possibly strengthen the original thesis), but you make an excellent one. I thought I was relatively good at this skill but you sir have raised it to an artform.

 

I am going to start a new thread which will make it more clear what we're discussing, feel free to join me there, and I think it would be a good idea if we kept it to minimalist arguments as I'm afraid our convulted, quote filled posts might break dragonmount.