Freedom or Security

[Suttree]

Furthermore, where is your "free speech" when Elayne threatened to cut off Perrin's head for raising the Red Eagle Banner? The threat itself might not be 100% serious, but the feeling of entitlement of the Two Rivers, and the willingness to prevent secession through use of force is clearly present in Elayne.

 

Again, I will repeat: Andor has had benevolent rulers in Morgase and Elayne. There is no guarantee that things will be as benevolent under another ruler. That's what happens when you depend on individuals to uphold justice, and not the system.

 

Free speech was shown in the city with Kings and Queens men wearing their colors and holding rallies. Other have pointed that out. Their citizens are free to voice their displeasure as we have seen. Taking a province that used to be a separate country and threatening rebellion is a different issue entirely. As for no guarantees things will be as benevolent look at the history of Andor from Ishara down. The Queen has never been above the law.

 

 

If there are more than one candidate, they don't count the number of votes each candidate receives. They marshal their armies and duke it out on the battlefield!

 

No the winner needs a majority of votes, if this can't be decided as a last resort they go to war. As evidenced by it only happening four times in the countries entire history.

 

If you read the Original post of this topic, IT IS NOT about damane, you made it so. I was curious as to what people prefer, more freedom or more security, you made it into another seanchan damane bashing thread.

 

It isn't? That's funny because the topic you posted begins and ends with it. It's there for all to see...and another damane bashing thread!?!?! LOL Yeah because there have been so many people on DM decrying the injustice of that.

 

It's also hilarious how you have insisted over and over that slavery is slavery. Peasants, Damane, Caste Slaves, and even Warders? are all the same in your eyes, ruled people. Yet in your opening post you say

 

I know too that in China, slaves were treated and viewed alot better and I believe RJ pattern the seanchan system to it. Slaves were not dogs to be worked but properties to be valued and slaves have risen to high prominence in society as well.

 

So you yourself try to differentiate, its the exact opposite of what you argued so vehemently about in this thread.

 

Now whenever I raise the rule of the Seanchan being preferred by the populace, you brush it aside, you never did answer those questions I posted for you as well right? If you read the Original post of this topic, IT IS NOT about damane, you made it so. I was curious as to what people prefer, more freedom or more security, you made it into another seanchan damane bashing thread.

 

Because David and other posters have already proved this wrong. They have given examples far and above the small sample size you present. Not to mention the whole thing would be vastly different without TG approaching and the forsaken causing havoc. As the Seanchan now know to their sorrow in their own homeland.

[Manscher]

I call total BS on that. Where in the text do you see that ANDOR has a different kind of monarchy to other nations? Did the other houses provide a system of checks against Gaebril, or did they actually facilitate Gaebril's work once he had Morgase remove her own supporters?

 

Gaebril was quite the special case, considering majority of the high seats were more or less under compulsion. As you might've noticed, while Rand ruled Caemlyn, the High seats clearly stated to him that if Elayne did not return quickly, they would gather their arms men and march towards him, well knowing that they would die doing so. Elayne even mentions that there's been Queens throughout the history of Andor who have lost their throne due to riots or high seats turning on her.

 

Furthermore, where is your "free speech" when Elayne threatened to cut off Perrin's head for raising the Red Eagle Banner? The threat itself might not be 100% serious, but the feeling of entitlement of the Two Rivers, and the willingness to prevent secession through use of force is clearly present in Elayne.

 

Rebellion is rebellion, there are laws for such things, even in a democratic modern nation, armed rebellion will be meet with equal force and punished severely, that really has nothing to do with monarchy.

 

It's not different types of monarchy, it's different kinds of monarchs!

 

There are various different types of monarchies, I personally live in a constitutional monarchy, before that it was an absolute monarchy with a hereditary succession, before that it was an elective monarchy where the power of the King/Queen was something given by the lords of the nation.

 

For you to get a better understanding on monarchies, I would suggest you read the wikipedia article regarding it, cause there exists various different kind of monarchies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchies

 

There have only been FOUR succession wars in the entire history of Andor. How did Elayne actually gain the throne, and how is it usually done? By the other houses voting who to support.

 

LOL, you said the Andoran Queen was *elected*. How can she be elected when she either gets her throne passed on to her by her mother, or she has to wage a succession war for it? Regardless of how many succession wars there were, the Andoran Queen is NOT elected!

 

Other nobility houses throw their support behind a claimant. That is politicking, not democracy! If there are more than one candidate, they don't count the number of votes each candidate receives. They marshal their armies and duke it out on the battlefield!

 

 

It's also stated a few times throughout the book, that Elayne could never be GIVEN the throne by simply being the Daughter-Heir, but rather that the houses still had to vote for her to gain the throne, the Andoran Queen IS elected by the high seats of the major houses.

 

Fun fact, democracy with elected ministers started out with nobles only really having a saying, just like we see currently in Andor with the lords and ladies being the once that can vote.

[solarz]

Free speech was shown in the city with Kings and Queens men wearing their colors and holding rallies. Other have pointed that out. Their citizens are free to voice their displeasure as we have seen. Taking a province that used to be a separate country and threatening rebellion is a different issue entirely. As for no guarantees things will be as benevolent look at the history of Andor from Ishara down. The Queen has never been above the law.

 

No, Morgase *CLAIMS* that she's not above the law. When did we see her get punished by the law again? It's not like she's ever sent anybody to the dungeons to be flogged. Oh wait...

 

I find it funny that you're claiming that advocating independence through non-violent means is not democractic. Perrin never threatened to start an armed rebellion. Hell, he doesn't even *want* to rebel. Elayne made her threat simply on the basis of hearing rumours of the Red Eagle Banner.

 

So, please, once and for all, stop look at Andor through protagonist-colored glasses, and start reading between the lines!

 

 

No the winner needs a majority of votes, if this can't be decided as a last resort they go to war. As evidenced by it only happening four times in the countries entire history.

 

Do you have a source on the whole "vote counting" thing? I don't ever remember Elayne counting the number of votes she would get, only the power and influence of those houses (read: armies).

 

Do you understand what a "succession war" is? It doesn't mean there have been only 4 wars in the entire history of Andor, only that there were 4 succession wars. Since you think 4 succession wars in ~1000 years is very few, let me tell you a bit about history: in the last 1000 years of imperial China, there have only been ONE succession war. There have been foreign invasions and peasant uprisings, but only ONE succession war, during the early Ming dynasty, and it was a short affair, lasting not even a year.

[USURP888]

 

There are various different types of monarchies, I personally live in a constitutional monarchy, before that it was an absolute monarchy with a hereditary succession, before that it was an elective monarchy where the power of the King/Queen was something given by the lords of the nation.

 

For you to get a better understanding on monarchies, I would suggest you read the wikipedia article regarding it, cause there exists various different kind of monarchies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchies

 

It's also stated a few times throughout the book, that Elayne could never be GIVEN the throne by simply being the Daughter-Heir, but rather that the houses still had to vote for her to gain the throne, the Andoran Queen IS elected by the high seats of the major houses.

 

Fun fact, democracy with elected ministers started out with nobles only really having a saying, just like we see currently in Andor with the lords and ladies being the once that can vote.

 

Thanks for the link, while it is true Elayne is voted in. The voters are all Nobles themselves as you have pointed out, Nobles unelected by the masses but rulers by lineage still.

[Manscher]

And as I said, democracy has to start somewhere. It's just how it began in most constitutional monarchies in Europe, England and Denmark being examples of it.

 

Besides that, you have to remember that the high seats of the major houses gain their power through the smaller houses that support them, and those smaller houses gain their power through the responsibility and power from the commoners that live under them. I agree it's not exactly election by the masses, but it is still possible for commoners to raise up against those smaller houses, just like it's possible for regular civilians today to stand up against the local elected mayor.

[Suttree]

Free speech was shown in the city with Kings and Queens men wearing their colors and holding rallies. Other have pointed that out. Their citizens are free to voice their displeasure as we have seen. Taking a province that used to be a separate country and threatening rebellion is a different issue entirely. As for no guarantees things will be as benevolent look at the history of Andor from Ishara down. The Queen has never been above the law.

 

 

No the winner needs a majority of votes, if this can't be decided as a last resort they go to war. As evidenced by it only happening four times in the countries entire history.

 

Do you have a source on the whole "vote counting" thing? I don't ever remember Elayne counting the number of votes she would get, only the power and influence of those houses (read: armies).

 

Do you understand what a "succession war" is? It doesn't mean there have been only 4 wars in the entire history of Andor, only that there were 4 succession wars.

 

KoD

"Pendar stands for Trakand," Abelle said suddenly, and right atop him, Luan said, "Norwelyn stands for Trakand." Lightning flashed overhead, brightening teh colored windows in the ceiling.

Elayne kept herself from swaying with an effort. Birgitte's face was smooth, but the bond carried amazement. It was done she had ELEVEN, the throne was hers.

 

It is a majority vote. Not sure what your point is with the succession wars? Only four times in history have they been unable to decide by vote and had to fight it out. That is of course separate from any other wars they may have fought.

[USURP888]

It's also hilarious how you have insisted over and over that slavery is slavery. Peasants, Damane, Caste Slaves, and even Warders? are all the same in your eyes, ruled people. Yet in your opening post you say

 

I tried to differentiate real life experience of US and China when it came to slavery to ask whether forum readers come from different point of views regarding slavery. US readers seem to view slavery in stark Black or White and I am saying that for me with our history it is in shades of grey. But the thread very quickly became solely about damanes. So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland. Now it seems the post has become about monarchies and I say one monarchy is the same as any other monarchy. no difference. Ruled People are ruled.

 

How about reading the posts in context and not try to choose only that are beneficial to your POV?

[USURP888]

Free speech was shown in the city with Kings and Queens men wearing their colors and holding rallies. Other have pointed that out. Their citizens are free to voice their displeasure as we have seen. Taking a province that used to be a separate country and threatening rebellion is a different issue entirely. As for no guarantees things will be as benevolent look at the history of Andor from Ishara down. The Queen has never been above the law.

 

 

No the winner needs a majority of votes, if this can't be decided as a last resort they go to war. As evidenced by it only happening four times in the countries entire history.

 

Do you have a source on the whole "vote counting" thing? I don't ever remember Elayne counting the number of votes she would get, only the power and influence of those houses (read: armies).

 

Do you understand what a "succession war" is? It doesn't mean there have been only 4 wars in the entire history of Andor, only that there were 4 succession wars.

 

KoD

"Pendar stands for Trakand," Abelle said suddenly, and right atop him, Luan said, "Norwelyn stands for Trakand." Lightning flashed overhead, brightening teh colored windows in the ceiling.

Elayne kept herself from swaying with an effort. Birgitte's face was smooth, but the bond carried amazement. It was done she had ELEVEN, the throne was hers.

 

It is a majority vote. Not sure what your point is with the succession wars? Only four times in history have they been unable to decide by vote and had to fight it out.

 

so you consider election by nobles proper democracy then? ok.

[Suttree]

so you consider election by nobles proper democracy then? ok.

 

You were provided with facts that there are diff types of monarchies. Go back and read Manscher's posts about how houses work and democracy was started.

 

So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland. Now it seems the post has become about monarchies and I say one monarchy is the same as any other monarchy. no difference. Ruled People are ruled.

 

This is going in circles but since we are back to this point. Make a list and compare the freedom between a commoner in Randland and a Damane. You have been unable to do so because there is no comparison. Andorans and other commoners would one and all say they are free men. They have free will, they have individual identities. Every point you have tried to raise has been disproving by multiple posters. Give it up man.

[USURP888]

And as I said, democracy has to start somewhere. It's just how it began in most constitutional monarchies in Europe, England and Denmark being examples of it.

 

Besides that, you have to remember that the high seats of the major houses gain their power through the smaller houses that support them, and those smaller houses gain their power through the responsibility and power from the commoners that live under them. I agree it's not exactly election by the masses, but it is still possible for commoners to raise up against those smaller houses, just like it's possible for regular civilians today to stand up against the local elected mayor.

 

 

True that, but Egeanin became Low Blood in Seanchan by virtue of her actions so it's possible for commoners in Seanchan to rise to the Blood. The monarchy of Seanchan goes by meritocracy, Tuon says that even High Blood like her brothers and sisters can be cast down to da'covale if they are foolish so that is more fair.

[solarz]

Gaebril was quite the special case, considering majority of the high seats were more or less under compulsion. As you might've noticed, while Rand ruled Caemlyn, the High seats clearly stated to him that if Elayne did not return quickly, they would gather their arms men and march towards him, well knowing that they would die doing so. Elayne even mentions that there's been Queens throughout the history of Andor who have lost their throne due to riots or high seats turning on her.

 

The only "High Seat" under compulsion was Morgase, and it shows how flawed your argument is when that was all Gaebril needed to seize power in Andor.

 

Why do you think queens losing their throne due to "riots" (i.e. violent uprisings) is supposed to be a positive? By that logic, Libya has a good government.

 

 

Rebellion is rebellion, there are laws for such things, even in a democratic modern nation, armed rebellion will be meet with equal force and punished severely, that really has nothing to do with monarchy.

 

Again, Elayned threatened to kill Perrin simply because he raised the Red Eagle Banner, not because he started to march an army against her.

 

There are various different types of monarchies, I personally live in a constitutional monarchy, before that it was an absolute monarchy with a hereditary succession, before that it was an elective monarchy where the power of the King/Queen was something given by the lords of the nation.

 

For you to get a better understanding on monarchies, I would suggest you read the wikipedia article regarding it, cause there exists various different kind of monarchies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchies

 

Please find a constitutional monarchy in Randland. Thanks!

 

It's also stated a few times throughout the book, that Elayne could never be GIVEN the throne by simply being the Daughter-Heir, but rather that the houses still had to vote for her to gain the throne, the Andoran Queen IS elected by the high seats of the major houses.

 

Fun fact, democracy with elected ministers started out with nobles only really having a saying, just like we see currently in Andor with the lords and ladies being the once that can vote.

 

Oh, is that why Elayne was so concerned about the support of certain houses, and not caring about others? Could that have something to do with the size of their armies, hmmm?

[USURP888]

so you consider election by nobles proper democracy then? ok.

 

You were provided with facts that there are diff types of monarchies. Go back and read Manscher's posts about how houses work and democracy was started.

 

Yep and I thanked him for it, very enlightning though there are no constitutional monarchies or elected monarchies in the story at the moment.

 

ok let's look at the current system of monarchy in Andor and in Seanchan.

 

Andor gets in queen by being voted by the houses, nobles all. Now, how did these nobles get their titles? by birth. As with all of Randland this title passes on to their children by right and the greatest punishment to a noble is to be stripped of title and cast down as a commoner, a fate they consider worse than death.

 

Seanchan gets to proclaim their Daughter of the Nine Moons once the Empress dies. Now, how did nobles in Seanchan get their titles? It has been explained that even the Imperial blood is not immune to the darwinian rule of the blood, the higher the blood the more dangerous the dance. Tuon's brother and sister has been cast down to da'covale and we see Egeanin, Tylee and Yulan promoted to the Low Blood by virtue of their achievements so I say Seanchan monarchies go by the system of meritocracy. The blood who are stupid are cast down, the commoner who is great are promoted.

[Suttree]

The only "High Seat" under compulsion was Morgase, and it shows how flawed your argument is when that was all Gaebril needed to seize power in Andor.

 

False, he used compulsion on others.

 

Oh, is that why Elayne was so concerned about the support of certain houses, and not caring about others? Could that have something to do with the size of their armies, hmmm?

 

Also false, she cared about support from every house. In fact she initially only had houses with the smallest armies tied to her so I have no idea what you mean when you say she didn't care about certain houses. That never happened. The votes are what mattered.

 

The blood who are stupid are cast down, the commoner who is great are promoted.

 

We have seen the same in Randland. Commoners raised to nobles through virtues of great deeds and nobles cast down for wrongdoing.

 

Yep and I thanked him for it, very enlightning though there are no constitutional monarchies or elected monarchies in the story at the moment.

 

Elected Monarchies

Hereditary rule is often a common characteristic, but elective monarchies are also considered monarchies (the Pope, sovereign of the Vatican City State and the head of the Catholic Church, is elected by the College of Cardinals)

 

ANDOR is an elected monarchy, just replace CoC from above with the houses. I hope now you do see how the houses work now? How it runs down to lesser houses all the way to the commoners. You do understand that commoners can be raised to a lesser house and so on through their deeds?

[solarz]

The only "High Seat" under compulsion was Morgase, and it shows how flawed your argument is when that was all Gaebril needed to seize power in Andor.

 

False, he used compulsion on others.

 

Oh, is that why Elayne was so concerned about the support of certain houses, and not caring about others? Could that have something to do with the size of their armies, hmmm?

 

Also false, she cared about support from every house. In fact she initially only had houses with the smallest armies tied to her so I have no idea what you mean when you say she didn't care about certain houses. That never happened. The votes are what mattered.

 

You must be reading a different book than I. What other High Seat was under Gaebril's compulsion?

 

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

[Suttree]

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

 

Sigh...because no house had a consensus. What about that is hard to understand?

[Manscher]

 

Please find a constitutional monarchy in Randland. Thanks!

 

 

 

Hard, since constitutional monarchies in our world first began to develop around the time of the industrial evolution, an era which Randland is just slowly getting in to. With technological evolution it was possible for the press to print out far more papers a day, and with the help of trains and telegraphs it was possible for such news to spread throughout the land far more quickly. We have already seen the start of trains in the steam engine, and electricity is also in it's early stages. So I'd dare say it's just a matter of time before technological evolution will help enlighten the general population, and slowly turn the governmental style of the nations into the same kind of democracy we had in the industrial era.

[USURP888]

 

We have seen the same in Randland. Commoners raised to nobles through virtues of great deeds and nobles cast down for wrongdoing.

 

The only commoners I see getting titles are the main characters. Fantastic enough that even Thom commented on it, it happens to be sure but not as common as it is in Seanchan.

 

which nobles were cast down? when elayne cast down the rebels she gave them other titles because in her mind as well as the other nobles, casting a noble down is inhumane, worse punishment than death. when Rand cast down colaveare(sp), she committed suicide because it is considered by randland nobles to be too cruel a punishment. No, casting nobles down is not built into randland's system of nobles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep and I thanked him for it, very enlightning though there are no constitutional monarchies or elected monarchies in the story at the moment.

 

Elected Monarchies

Hereditary rule is often a common characteristic, but elective monarchies are also considered monarchies (the Pope, sovereign of the Vatican City State and the head of the Catholic Church, is elected by the College of Cardinals)

 

ANDOR is an elected monarchy, just replace CoC from above with the houses. I hope know you do see how the houses work now? How it runs down to lesser houses all the way to the commoners. Do you do understand that commoners can be raised to a lesser house and so on through their deeds.

 

 

Let's stick to the type of monarchies in the story and not in wikipedia. And I don't agree that Andor is an elected monarchy despite being "voted" in by nobles. Consider this, when lesser nobles supported Elayne early in her bid for the crown she says that she needs the bigger houses. it shows that it is not the vote that is needed it is the strength of the house supporting her that is needed.

[USURP888]

 

Please find a constitutional monarchy in Randland. Thanks!

 

 

 

Hard, since constitutional monarchies in our world first began to develop around the time of the industrial evolution, an era which Randland is just slowly getting in to. With technological evolution it was possible for the press to print out far more papers a day, and with the help of trains and telegraphs it was possible for such news to spread throughout the land far more quickly. We have already seen the start of trains in the steam engine, and electricity is also in it's early stages. So I'd dare say it's just a matter of time before technological evolution will help enlighten the general population, and slowly turn the governmental style of the nations into the same kind of democracy we had in the industrial era.

 

When that happens, then I can truly say Randland monarchies are better but as it stands right now in the story that is not the case.

[solarz]

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

 

Sigh...because no house had a consensus. What about that is hard to understand?

 

A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form.

 

Consensus means 100% agreement. When's the last time this happened in a democratic nation?

[Suttree]

Elected Monarchies

Hereditary rule is often a common characteristic, but elective monarchies are also considered monarchies (the Pope, sovereign of the Vatican City State and the head of the Catholic Church, is elected by the College of Cardinals)

 

ANDOR is an elected monarchy, just replace CoC from above with the houses. I hope know you do see how the houses work now? How it runs down to lesser houses all the way to the commoners. Do you do understand that commoners can be raised to a lesser house and so on through their deeds.

 

 

Let's stick to the type of monarchies in the story and not in wikipedia. And I don't agree that Andor is an elected monarchy despite being "voted" in by nobles. Consider this, when lesser nobles supported Elayne early in her bid for the crown she says that she needs the bigger houses. it shows that it is not the vote that is needed it is the strength of the house supporting her that is needed.

 

The definition from wiki is valid as that is exactly what Andor is. An elected monarchy.

 

They weren't "lesser nobles" they are all "High Seats". All of the "High Seats" votes carry equal weight and you need the majority to win(see my quote above when Elayne got to eleven) the only reason she wanted the ones with bigger armies is because there was a succession war coming. The only reason there is a succession war is because there isn't a consensus of votes. This is a fact of the story that isn't even open to debate.

 

and I am bumping this. This is what you argue so prove it to us. Just because you say ruled people are ruled and all people under monarchies are slaves doesn't make it true. Now address the issue, compare the freedoms they have and stop side steeping.

 

So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland. Now it seems the post has become about monarchies and I say one monarchy is the same as any other monarchy. no difference. Ruled People are ruled.

 

This is going in circles but since we are back to this point. Make a list and compare the freedom between a commoner in Randland and a Damane. You have been unable to do so because there is no comparison. Andorans and other commoners would one and all say they are free men. They have free will, they have individual identities. Every point you have tried to raise has been shot down by multiple posters.

[USURP888]

Seanchan people love them more than Randland peasants love their ruler. I have said this over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

You keep on going back to you damane argument which I have repeatedly said I don't approve of again and again and again and again.

 

Your argument has been repeatedly shot down as well and yet you keep on trucking on. DO you have reading problems?

[Suttree]

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

 

Sigh...because no house had a consensus. What about that is hard to understand?

 

A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form.

 

Consensus means 100% agreement. When's the last time this happened in a democratic nation?

 

Double sigh.

 

Although I guess this one was partially my fault. I meant to type majority. Please review the portions of the story you wish to argue before you make so many claims that are wrong. Elayne only needed the majority

 

KoD

 

"The more who stand for her, the better for Andor." Dyelin sounded a touch dazed herself. "Stand with me for Trakand."

"She had the throne," Ellorien said, as cold as ever. "The rest is fluff and feathers."

 

So no 100% agreement is not needed. Andor is an elected monarchy...as others have pointed out this is one of the steps to democracy.

[Manscher]

Seanchan people love them more than Randland peasants love their ruler. I have said this over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

You keep on going back to you damane argument which I have repeatedly said I don't approve of again and again and again and again.

 

Your argument has been repeatedly shot down as well and yet you keep on trucking on. DO you have reading problems?

 

 

That Seanchan "love" reminds me more of the fanatic, near zealot like, tendencies that often occurs in imperial nations, where the nobles are seen as being more than just humans. It's not really love, but rather propaganda force-fed into them since they were born, they don't really LOVE the Empress or the other nobles, but they are made to believe it's their DUTY to love them. They never learn to question the nobles, or the empress actions, as it's seen as being illegal and against the will of the empire. Sounds awful lot like something that occurred down in Germany in the 30s and 40s :p

[Suttree]

You keep on going back to you damane argument which I have repeatedly said I don't approve of again and again and again and again.

 

HAHA side step side step. You're getting good at that dance. You said slaves are slaves period. That anyone under living under a monarchy is a slave. This is patently false. It doesn't matter what you approve or don't approve of. There is a difference between damane and commoners. You argue over and over that there is none. Prove it.

[USURP888]

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

 

Sigh...because no house had a consensus. What about that is hard to understand?

 

A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form.

 

Consensus means 100% agreement. When's the last time this happened in a democratic nation?

 

Double sigh.

 

Although I guess this one was partially my fault. I meant to type majority. Please review the portions of the story you wish to argue before you make so many claims that are wrong. Elayne only needed the majority

 

KoD

 

"The more who stand for her, the better for Andor." Dyelin sounded a touch dazed herself. "Stand with me for Trakand."

"She had the throne," Ellorien said, as cold as ever. "The rest is fluff and feathers."

 

So no 100% agreement is not needed. Andor is an elected monarchy...as others have pointed out this is one of the steps to democracy.

 

 

You KOD quote basically shot down your argument that Andor is an elected monarchy. Ellorien told Dyelin that votes and support are not needed since Elayne succeeded in holding on to the throne via strength or arms.

 

Time for bed, I am sure I can find other better things to do and you I am sure as well.