where did lews therin go?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

(i won't go on any more about the imprecise use of psychiatric terms, because i know that doesn't poke you any more than the imprecise use of mathematical terms would poke me. . . maybe poke isn't the correct word, but i hope you know what i mean and don't take offense, as i don't mean to offend. but just this one thing - i think you mean dissociate and not disassociate. unless i really don't get what you're saying at all, in which case, and in either case, please just ignore me and carry on, thank you.)

[Demon_AS]

As for the question--no idea. I suspect he was hiding from Cadsuane. She's very scary sometimes. :)

This is a good example of the difference between your arguments and mine.

It is a good example, isn't it? Perfect, in fact. :D

It seems you are trying to say that the difference is that I pretend to know what happened there while you take the high road and admit you don't know. Correct? But what I am saying is that your surface analysis of the subject - apparent in the above and in other writings on the subject - is insufficient to the task, and does not do justice to the sheer amount of text that RJ dedicated to the subject. I still love you though.

 

In the chapter where Lews Therin 'comes back', did you know that Rand denied him three times?

 

My idea is that Rand "inheriting" LTT's memories was a thing of the Pattern, was something that needed to happen for him to battle the Shadow and win. But, as you say, he was unwilling to accept this idea, fearing LTT's insanity and his own eventual insanity due to the Taint. Then I factored in his insanity that came not from the Taint: the one that arose from all the stress he's been under and combined them all.

 

So, Rand's denial of who and what he is - LTT reborn - his fear of insanity and his actual insanity all combine to form that voice he hears in his head - a separate manifestation of himself. Once he lances that bundle to clear himself of that insanity, as he did in Veins of Gold, all you have left is LTT's memories, which he has now accepted into himself. My theory is that somehow Rand bundled his fear, denial and insanity with the part of his mind that contains LTT's memories, but once he unravelled that web (if you'll forgive the pun) he became Rand Sedai.

 

Is that more or less what you were saying? Or have I misread?

The only problem here is that you seem to be focusing on Rand's fear of insanity more than anything else. Yes, that's a huge part of what's going on here, but part of it is a resistance to face the pain of what he did in his past life, and in the beginning, a resistance to associating himself with that legend in any way. When he started remembering, it got really personal for him, and that could only act together with the taint (and Rand's fear of it) to contribute to Rand's increasing delusions. But that fear of insanity is part of what encouraged Rand to associate his mad thoughts with 'Lews Therin', the bad guy.

Hmmm, I see what you're saying (I think) but isn't that more or less what I was saying? The "theory" - or rather, the important part of the theory - is that all the fear, pain, emotion and insanity that Rand was feeling got tied up in the part of him that is LTT. Once he dealt with the former, all that remained was the latter, which seamlessly reintegrated itself with his mind, thus creating Rand Sedai.

 

I didn't mean to isolate his fear of insanity - I'm saying that ALL of it - every part of him that wasn't Darth Rand was tied up in a confused mess with LTT.

 

What I do disagree with is the Taint having anything to do with it, for the simple reason that Nynaeve Delves Rand's mind and sees the blackness of Taint-madness being held off by a mysterious Light. LTT at this point is completely integrated with Rand, which means that the problem wasn't the Taint, it was the pressures and stress that Verin Sedai talks about to Egwene when she reveals her Black Ajah self (an awesome chapter, I've always thought).

[Terez]

(i won't go on any more about the imprecise use of psychiatric terms, because i know that doesn't poke you any more than the imprecise use of mathematical terms would poke me. . . maybe poke isn't the correct word, but i hope you know what i mean and don't take offense, as i don't mean to offend. but just this one thing - i think you mean dissociate and not disassociate. unless i really don't get what you're saying at all, in which case, and in either case, please just ignore me and carry on, thank you.)

They are two different versions of the same word. I'm not trying to use psychiatric terms here; I'm just explaining how Rand wants to disassociate himself from Lews Therin's memories.

[mb]

Another thing:: One of Rand's Winter's Heart POVs tells that Rand was not good at drawing and that Lews Therin was.

[Terez]

Another thing:: One of Rand's Winter's Heart POVs tells that Rand was not good at drawing and that Lews Therin was.

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

[Terez]

What I do disagree with is the Taint having anything to do with it, for the simple reason that Nynaeve Delves Rand's mind and sees the blackness of Taint-madness being held off by a mysterious Light. LTT at this point is completely integrated with Rand, which means that the problem wasn't the Taint, it was the pressures and stress that Verin Sedai talks about to Egwene when she reveals her Black Ajah self (an awesome chapter, I've always thought).

Nynaeve saw that after the integration, so I don't see why anyone would assume his brain was always like that. It's possible, but it's implied that his brain was warded on Dragonmount at the moment of integration. Also, Brandon confirmed that the taint played a role.

[mb]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

The last time Rand drew anything I take to be many years before then.

[The Fallen One]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

The last time Rand drew anything I take to be many years before then.

 

I think what RJ was trying to imply by making Rand good at drawing all of a sudden (besides just being convenient for the plot) was that he was getting this skill from the memories from LT. IMO, this was not the most clever way to do this because it brings in to question if memory of having a skill essentially gives you the skill. However, even though this was one of my least favorite scenes in the series because the skill was just way to convenient and it just seemed like a thrown in plot-device, it still fits the form of the story since Rand has been pulling chanelling "skills" from Lews Therin's memories for quite some time at this point.

 

In short, the skill comes from the memories.

[OptimusPrime]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

The last time Rand drew anything I take to be many years before then.

 

I think what RJ was trying to imply by making Rand good at drawing all of a sudden (besides just being convenient for the plot) was that he was getting this skill from the memories from LT. IMO, this was not the most clever way to do this because it brings in to question if memory of having a skill essentially gives you the skill. However, even though this was one of my least favorite scenes in the series because the skill was just way to convenient and it just seemed like a thrown in plot-device

 

I think what that scene implies isnt that Rand simply had gained the skill. It was that Rand had inherrited all of Lews Therins memories already, but his denial of BEING Lews Therin made him repress all the memories. The memory of having the skill only came back when he actually drew something, it wasnt "ping" I can draw, it was "oh, yeah I can draw." The skill of drawing is exactly the same to him as the skill with the Power, but the Power skills have been more obvious because of how often he channeled this time after the memories came.

 

As to where Lews Therin go, I think Moridin hears him as of VoG.

[Terez]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

From his past life memories.

[Justanotherfacet]

So when is the Terez VS Luckers Deathmatch scheduled?

[OptimusPrime]

So when is the Terez VS Luckers Deathmatch scheduled?

 

And is Mr Ares willing to combat the victor?

[Luckers]

So when is the Terez VS Luckers Deathmatch scheduled?

 

You missed it. I won.

[Suttree]

So when is the Terez VS Luckers Deathmatch scheduled?

 

And is Mr Ares willing to combat the victor?

 

Do you even need to ask?

[mb]

From his past life memories.

Where then did Rand get the memories?

[Terez]

From his past life memories.

Where then did Rand get the memories?

The memories are a part of him, but it's not clear why he can access them. There are many theories on it, though. A popular one at Theoryland (among both real'ers and construct'ors) is the Barrier Degradation theory, which suggests there is normally a barrier in the mind/soul/body (debate on that) that was broken down by the taint, which allowed those memories to bubble to the surface. Some people favor 'the Wheel did it', and my first formal theory at Theoryland was that it was a byproduct of Rand going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh too often. It was a pretty vague theory though.

[The Fallen One]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

The last time Rand drew anything I take to be many years before then.

 

I think what RJ was trying to imply by making Rand good at drawing all of a sudden (besides just being convenient for the plot) was that he was getting this skill from the memories from LT. IMO, this was not the most clever way to do this because it brings in to question if memory of having a skill essentially gives you the skill. However, even though this was one of my least favorite scenes in the series because the skill was just way to convenient and it just seemed like a thrown in plot-device

 

I think what that scene implies isnt that Rand simply had gained the skill. It was that Rand had inherrited all of Lews Therins memories already, but his denial of BEING Lews Therin made him repress all the memories. The memory of having the skill only came back when he actually drew something, it wasnt "ping" I can draw, it was "oh, yeah I can draw." The skill of drawing is exactly the same to him as the skill with the Power, but the Power skills have been more obvious because of how often he channeled this time after the memories came.

 

As to where Lews Therin go, I think Moridin hears him as of VoG.

 

I was actually trying to get across pretty much the same idea as you. I understand that it was him "remembering" how to draw, my complaint with the scene is purely personal taste. I think it would have been easier for me to deal with Rand remembering how to draw if at some point before Rand would have picked up a skill completely unrelated to the plot from LT. Sure, he probably has picked up skills (sword for example) from LT, but the only time Rand realized it was coming from LT is during the drawing. IDK, just was a really convenient plot device to me, which is cool, just would have liked it to have some lead in.

 

FYI, not trying to bash the series or RJ at all. I love them both. Just felt like the scene was weak and it probably stands out so much to me because the series does not have a lot of "weak" scenes.

[OptimusPrime]

And the voice drew those pretty pictures for him, didn't it? Oh wait...Rand did.

I'll count those as a joke.

 

I was implying this question: If Rand was not good at drawing, how did he suddenly become good at it?

The last time Rand drew anything I take to be many years before then.

 

I think what RJ was trying to imply by making Rand good at drawing all of a sudden (besides just being convenient for the plot) was that he was getting this skill from the memories from LT. IMO, this was not the most clever way to do this because it brings in to question if memory of having a skill essentially gives you the skill. However, even though this was one of my least favorite scenes in the series because the skill was just way to convenient and it just seemed like a thrown in plot-device

 

I think what that scene implies isnt that Rand simply had gained the skill. It was that Rand had inherrited all of Lews Therins memories already, but his denial of BEING Lews Therin made him repress all the memories. The memory of having the skill only came back when he actually drew something, it wasnt "ping" I can draw, it was "oh, yeah I can draw." The skill of drawing is exactly the same to him as the skill with the Power, but the Power skills have been more obvious because of how often he channeled this time after the memories came.

 

As to where Lews Therin go, I think Moridin hears him as of VoG.

 

I was actually trying to get across pretty much the same idea as you. I understand that it was him "remembering" how to draw, my complaint with the scene is purely personal taste. I think it would have been easier for me to deal with Rand remembering how to draw if at some point before Rand would have picked up a skill completely unrelated to the plot from LT. Sure, he probably has picked up skills (sword for example) from LT, but the only time Rand realized it was coming from LT is during the drawing. IDK, just was a really convenient plot device to me, which is cool, just would have liked it to have some lead in.

 

FYI, not trying to bash the series or RJ at all. I love them both. Just felt like the scene was weak and it probably stands out so much to me because the series does not have a lot of "weak" scenes.

 

Yeah its cool I know what you mean. I suppose it wouldnt have been hard to rope in a memory of drawing something as Lews Therin in the early books for some subtle foreshadowing.

[Demon_AS]

The Taint-Degradation of Mental Barriers a seems like an interesting theory, but not a rational one, I feel.

 

Don't forget that Graendal was considered something of the authority on madness during the AoL, before she went over to the Dark. Semirhage, too, was the best Healer in the world. According to the latter, Graendal had seen cases of this (and I'm pretty sure she was referencing the pre-Breaking AoL here).

 

If that is true, it means this condition pre-dates the Taint, meaning that the Taint can't have been the cause.

 

My own view is that even today people claim to have access to previous lives, and while I'm sceptic at heart, I'm not wool-headed enough to think I'm right all the time :P. It could well be that, on rare occasions, important souls are given access to past knowledge at great need by the Pattern (which would also explain why Rand is the only person we know who currently has heard that voice, despite there having been loads of channelers around who could've developed the condition pre-Cleansing).

 

Either way, I don't think there's enough evidence supporting the Taint-barrier theory, but then again, there's hardly any evidence supporting any other theory!

 

I liked idea I just read above concerning entering T'A'R - we know something is supposed to happen to you, but no one knows what. Again, however, we have not a shred of evidence and much to say against this idea (Slayer, Perrin and Egwene have all spent time in the flesh inside T'A'R and none of them show evidence of accessing past lives).

[Terez]

The Taint-Degradation of Mental Barriers a seems like an interesting theory, but not a rational one, I feel.

 

Don't forget that Graendal was considered something of the authority on madness during the AoL, before she went over to the Dark. Semirhage, too, was the best Healer in the world. According to the latter, Graendal had seen cases of this (and I'm pretty sure she was referencing the pre-Breaking AoL here).

 

If that is true, it means this condition pre-dates the Taint, meaning that the Taint can't have been the cause.

Typically people feel that there is no reason to assume that the taint is the only possible cause. Barrier degradation might be caused by some other sort of mental illness, or brain damage, or hallucinogenic drugs, etc. Multiple causes does not rule out the taint being the cause for Rand.

 

Either way, I don't think there's enough evidence supporting the Taint-barrier theory, but then again, there's hardly any evidence supporting any other theory!

There's actually plenty of evidence, mainly that the memories first surfaced after Rand's first usage of Callandor (channeling more taint than probably anyone ever had before), and that they grew noticeably more frequent after his use of half the Choedan Kal's power in Rhuidean.

[Demon_AS]

The Taint-Degradation of Mental Barriers a seems like an interesting theory, but not a rational one, I feel.

 

Don't forget that Graendal was considered something of the authority on madness during the AoL, before she went over to the Dark. Semirhage, too, was the best Healer in the world. According to the latter, Graendal had seen cases of this (and I'm pretty sure she was referencing the pre-Breaking AoL here).

 

If that is true, it means this condition pre-dates the Taint, meaning that the Taint can't have been the cause.

Typically people feel that there is no reason to assume that the taint is the only possible cause. Barrier degradation might be caused by some other sort of mental illness, or brain damage, or hallucinogenic drugs, etc. Multiple causes does not rule out the taint being the cause for Rand.

 

Either way, I don't think there's enough evidence supporting the Taint-barrier theory, but then again, there's hardly any evidence supporting any other theory!

There's actually plenty of evidence, mainly that the memories first surfaced after Rand's first usage of Callandor (channeling more taint than probably anyone ever had before), and that they grew noticeably more frequent after his use of half the Choedan Kal's power in Rhuidean.

Hmmm, I can see your point re: the first issue, but what I'm saying is there just aren't enough people who've developed that condition (especially as there were at least 500 men channeling by the time saidin was Cleansed) for it to be Taint-related. With a sample size that big, even if the incidence of this disease was 1%, that's still at least 5 men that would've developed the condition. Ok, I'm not saying we've met all the channelers, but Logain would've heard the rumours of such a problem existing (but he shows nothing but complete shock when Semirhage reveals LTT's voice in KoD).

 

Not much evidence on my end, I know, but it just doesn't "feel" right, if you see what I'm saying. The majority of my reasoning has to be based on that sort of premise because there simply is no hard evidence supporting these theories.

 

For example, your idea that LTT's voice increased with frequency after his Choedan Kal usage - I can't say I noticed, and I've scrutinised the books pretty well. Don't forget also that as time progresses, Rand would've achieved more integration with Lews Therin - so your idea could be lead-time biased, forgetting to take the passage of time into consideration :).

 

I don't want to sound like I'm just poking holes in every theory - it's just that every theory, including mine, have holes in them lol. It's about finding the theory that has either the fewest holes or the fewest likely holes :).

[Terez]

Hmmm, I can see your point re: the first issue, but what I'm saying is there just aren't enough people who've developed that condition (especially as there were at least 500 men channeling by the time saidin was Cleansed) for it to be Taint-related.

1) Again, Brandon has confirmed it was at least partly taint-related.

2) Again, Rand channeled exponentially more of the taint than anyone else.

 

For example, your idea that LTT's voice increased with frequency after his Choedan Kal usage - I can't say I noticed, and I've scrutinised the books pretty well.

Not well enough, obviously. I recounted the progression of the memories above; in TSR 9 and 10 we get the first hints of memories; there is nothing else until TFOH 2, at which point Rand notes they have been coming regularly lately.

 

Don't forget also that as time progresses, Rand would've achieved more integration with Lews Therin

Not sure what you mean by that.

[Demon_AS]

Hmmm, I can see your point re: the first issue, but what I'm saying is there just aren't enough people who've developed that condition (especially as there were at least 500 men channeling by the time saidin was Cleansed) for it to be Taint-related.

1) Again, Brandon has confirmed it was at least partly taint-related.

2) Again, Rand channeled exponentially more of the taint than anyone else.

 

For example, your idea that LTT's voice increased with frequency after his Choedan Kal usage - I can't say I noticed, and I've scrutinised the books pretty well.

Not well enough, obviously. I recounted the progression of the memories above; in TSR 9 and 10 we get the first hints of memories; there is nothing else until TFOH 2, at which point Rand notes they have been coming regularly lately.

 

Don't forget also that as time progresses, Rand would've achieved more integration with Lews Therin

Not sure what you mean by that.

1) IIRC, Brandon said that Rand's madness was partly Taint-induced. LTT's voice, though can't have been part of THAT madness, because as we have seen in Towers of Midnight, Rand is still suffering from Taint-madness, only it's being held off by the Light. It just makes sense, doesn't it? There was more than one cause for Rand's madness, and this to me suggests that it was the extreme pressure/denial/stress/fear/everything-else-madness that got resolved in VoG. Is that making more sense? Rand has been cured of one form of madness, but the Taint still exists, and as he's cured of LTT's voice, so to speak, it can't have been the Taint that caused it.

 

2) I know he has, but as see above for why that isn't relevant.

 

3) With all due respect, I have been quite thorough. And the increase was affected by lead-time bias, as I said before. What I meant by that was that as time has gone on, Rand's madness as gotten worse, so of course the voice was going to be more vocal, and the cross-over between him and LTT was going to worsen. This goes all the way back to point 1) above, ruling out the Taint as a cause for LTT's voice.

[Terez]

Hmmm, I can see your point re: the first issue, but what I'm saying is there just aren't enough people who've developed that condition (especially as there were at least 500 men channeling by the time saidin was Cleansed) for it to be Taint-related.

1) Again, Brandon has confirmed it was at least partly taint-related.

2) Again, Rand channeled exponentially more of the taint than anyone else.

 

For example, your idea that LTT's voice increased with frequency after his Choedan Kal usage - I can't say I noticed, and I've scrutinised the books pretty well.

Not well enough, obviously. I recounted the progression of the memories above; in TSR 9 and 10 we get the first hints of memories; there is nothing else until TFOH 2, at which point Rand notes they have been coming regularly lately.

 

Don't forget also that as time progresses, Rand would've achieved more integration with Lews Therin

Not sure what you mean by that.

1) IIRC, Brandon said that Rand's madness was partly Taint-induced.

The question was more general than that:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

LTT's voice, though can't have been part of THAT madness, because as we have seen in Towers of Midnight, Rand is still suffering from Taint-madness, only it's being held off by the Light.

His brain is protected from the taint madness, and he no longer hears Lews Therin's voice. The clear implication is that his brain was not warded from the taint madness until Dragonmount.

 

3) With all due respect, I have been quite thorough.

Yet you still missed the increase in the memories after the use of the Choedan Kal. It's not as if we didn't have Rand's POV in TSR - we even had it a lot toward the end. But in TFOH 2:

 

He concentrated on her. "What do you want of me?" His voice sounded flat and cold to his own ears. The Power stormed inside him. Egwene had told him that for a woman, touching saidar, the female half of the Source, was an embrace; for a man, always, it was a war without mercy. "And don't mention wagons again, little sister. I usually find out what you mean to do long after it is done."

 

The Aes Sedai frowned at him, and no wonder. She was surely not used to being addressed so, not by any man, even the Dragon Reborn. He had no idea himself where "little sister" had come from; sometimes of late words seemed to pop into his head. A touch of madness, perhaps. Some nights he lay awake till the small hours, worrying about that. Inside the Void, it seemed someone else's worry.

That is the first of three examples in that one chapter, when previously we had none (not counting TSR 9 and 10). From there on out it is a steady flow; Rand is more susceptible to the memories when he is in the Void or when he is delirious.

 

And the increase was affected by lead-time bias, as I said before. What I meant by that was that as time has gone on, Rand's madness as gotten worse, so of course the voice was going to be more vocal, and the cross-over between him and LTT was going to worsen.

So you think the madness itself caused the memories to become more frequent? That doesn't make any sense; there has to be a mechanism of some sort. I'm not fond of 'the Wheel did it' at all, but it makes more sense than the idea that the memories themselves are products of madness.

 

The matter of the taint having caused the barrier to break down between Rand's mind and those memories has good logic behind it, but it's not provable, and to be honest I don't find it to be a very interesting argument in general. I just dislike it when people make narrow arguments against it.

[Demon_AS]

Hmmm, I can see your point re: the first issue, but what I'm saying is there just aren't enough people who've developed that condition (especially as there were at least 500 men channeling by the time saidin was Cleansed) for it to be Taint-related.

1) Again, Brandon has confirmed it was at least partly taint-related.

2) Again, Rand channeled exponentially more of the taint than anyone else.

 

For example, your idea that LTT's voice increased with frequency after his Choedan Kal usage - I can't say I noticed, and I've scrutinised the books pretty well.

Not well enough, obviously. I recounted the progression of the memories above; in TSR 9 and 10 we get the first hints of memories; there is nothing else until TFOH 2, at which point Rand notes they have been coming regularly lately.

 

Don't forget also that as time progresses, Rand would've achieved more integration with Lews Therin

Not sure what you mean by that.

1) IIRC, Brandon said that Rand's madness was partly Taint-induced.

The question was more general than that:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

LTT's voice, though can't have been part of THAT madness, because as we have seen in Towers of Midnight, Rand is still suffering from Taint-madness, only it's being held off by the Light.

His brain is protected from the taint madness, and he no longer hears Lews Therin's voice. The clear implication is that his brain was not warded from the taint madness until Dragonmount.

 

3) With all due respect, I have been quite thorough.

Yet you still missed the increase in the memories after the use of the Choedan Kal. It's not as if we didn't have Rand's POV in TSR - we even had it a lot toward the end. But in TFOH 2:

 

He concentrated on her. "What do you want of me?" His voice sounded flat and cold to his own ears. The Power stormed inside him. Egwene had told him that for a woman, touching saidar, the female half of the Source, was an embrace; for a man, always, it was a war without mercy. "And don't mention wagons again, little sister. I usually find out what you mean to do long after it is done."

 

The Aes Sedai frowned at him, and no wonder. She was surely not used to being addressed so, not by any man, even the Dragon Reborn. He had no idea himself where "little sister" had come from; sometimes of late words seemed to pop into his head. A touch of madness, perhaps. Some nights he lay awake till the small hours, worrying about that. Inside the Void, it seemed someone else's worry.

That is the first of three examples in that one chapter, when previously we had none (not counting TSR 9 and 10). From there on out it is a steady flow; Rand is more susceptible to the memories when he is in the Void or when he is delirious.

 

And the increase was affected by lead-time bias, as I said before. What I meant by that was that as time has gone on, Rand's madness as gotten worse, so of course the voice was going to be more vocal, and the cross-over between him and LTT was going to worsen.

So you think the madness itself caused the memories to become more frequent? That doesn't make any sense; there has to be a mechanism of some sort. I'm not fond of 'the Wheel did it' at all, but it makes more sense than the idea that the memories themselves are products of madness.

 

The matter of the taint having caused the barrier to break down between Rand's mind and those memories has good logic behind it, but it's not provable, and to be honest I don't find it to be a very interesting argument in general. I just dislike it when people make narrow arguments against it.

Your replies show that you're still misunderstanding my thoughts, but that's ok. Likely it's my own fault for not being clear.

 

Brandon's answer is a typical author's answer: not really giving away anything beyond what we already suspect. My point with the Taint is this: if the Taint is the cause of barrier-breakdown, WHY haven't we seen more of it? Your answer was that Rand has channeled exponential quantities of it, and that's a fair enough answer, but as you yourself said - it's not proof that the Taint caused anything, even if there is no other easy explanation at hand.

 

Your next point mirrors exactly what I've been trying to say all along, the point about LTT's voice disappearing at Dragonmount. Loads of things happened in Rand's mind at Dragonmount - but the overall picture is that he a) channeled his stress-madness out, b) integrated with Lews Therin Telamon's voice and c) somehow warded himself with Light from the Taint-madness.

 

What I think you're saying is that if that Light-barrier were to dissipate, Rand would be revert back to square one. What I'M saying is that the Taint madness had nothing to do with LTT's voice, because Rand is and always has been LTT - LTT and him have the same soul, and in some part of his mind, LTT's memories must have lain. As to HOW they came to fore, maybe the Taint had a part to play - who can say? My point was that Rand solved something for himself that day on Dragonmount, which was his madness that had nothing to do with the Taint, and your theory doesn't take that aspect into account.

 

If we attribute ALL his madness to the Taint, as you seem to be suggesting, then I can well understand your point of view. I just don't think he entirely maddened by the Taint - I reckon a lot of it was from those other factors I keep going on about. So, even if the Light-barrier disappears, he won't start hearing LTT's voice again, is what I'm saying.

 

Now you're going to ask me for proof - I can't say I have any, beyond what I understand about these characters (and about madness). But is there any proof? I don't think so.