Who will kill Rand?

[OptimusPrime]

Why do we think he will die, I mean he probably will, but if he does it would have to be because the Darkone. Because if its not...all this climax for no reason...? And that would mean no Tamon Gai'don?

 

Hehe, well its been fairly evident that he will die and return for a long time, so I think most of us are just trying to guess how Rj planned on keeping the suspence there. We pretty much know he will die, but what we dont know is the context. Judging how many of the prophecies and visions have managed to pan out in "indirect" or metaphoric ways, its not necesarily as simple as Rand will die to save the world. It could be that Rands death makes everyone else get their act together, or it could mean the Shadow think they have won but we still have Mat and Perrin who have been underestimated all this time. Lets say Demandred kills him. How would things turn out after that? If he had known Demandred would be there at a given time it could count as a sacrifice, especially if it meant Demandred killed Moridin at the same time. You know, lets say Rand has figured out Moridin might die if he does, he would maybe then be like "Well I might as well spring Demandreds trap." Doesnt have to be just because of the Dark One.

 

Im still down with the Callandor Crew vs Randzamon though.

[wolfqueen]

Fair point, but the whole point of Tamon Gai'don was that Rand will fight the Dark one, because thats what Tarmon Gai'don is; if thers no final battle the whole climax will be abit of a downer. Mat and Perrin may have another part to play that we don't even know about yet, but I s'pose I can't really talk yet, I'm only up to the 11th book..haha, awkward.

[MarkDiLillo]

Demandred is definitely going to kill Rand IMO. Or at least have a large part in his "death". Moridin is linked to him and has shown his distate in even harming Rand lately so I don't see it being him. Demandred has stated that he intends to be the one to kill Lews Therin, and he has also been asbent from most of the series in standard climactic build-up fashion. I expect him to come out with a bang and to kill Rand somehow. He will probably kill or betray Moridin too somehow. Remember that Demandred was told he may be Nae'blis too - I think it is premature to assume that he missed his chance. It is very likely that Demandred obeys Moridin without any reservations simply because he understands that the guy isn't going to be around long and he will be Nae'blis in the end. Or so he may think.

 

I feel like Moiraine's importance revolves around Lanfear and revealing what happened in the 'finns world. I don't buy the whole Lanfear/Cyndane setting a trap thing. IMO one of the meanings of "A Memory of Light" is directly referring to Mierin. Moiraine will reveal something important about her, and Rand will (with Lews Therin's memories) reach out to her and she is going to turn to the light and provide some key information or act to help the good guys seal the bore permanently. As I've said before many times - there is just way too many important details and uniqueness about Lanfear/Mierin's character for her to just end a standard bad guy trying to trap/kill Rand. RJ went out of his way to stress that she was not always evil, she had opened the bore, she chose her own name, etc etc.

 

Honestly, as the end approaches and the DO actually is about to break free, I feel like there is going to be a mass betrayal of the Shadow in the sense that the DO will start to throw his own men under the bus when it gets to the point where he doesn't need them anymore. Many of his worshippers and followers are going to realize at the end that they've made a BIG mistake and are going to start jumping ship (or trying to and probably failing). Graendal, Moghedian, Lanfear, Moridin, etc. are all candidates. A Memory of Light is going to refer to a lot of these idiots and their final thoughts where they are seeing hope in the Light again. The only real candidate left who is going to stay with the Shadow til the end is Demandred from what I can see.

 

Another prediction - we will see Graendal appear mind trapped (and totally fucked up somehow probably) in the last book. Moridin's 3 woman chained in their hatred for him against their will versus Rand and his 3 woman who are chained by their love of their own free will. Not that there will be any direct confrontation between the two harems, but I feel like this is going to fit the theme of opposites that goes in this series very nicely. I also expect mercy for those three somehow.

 

....but then again I could be totally wrong on all of that. I likely am wrong on a good part, but I feel like that's going to be the general direction of where the story is going in the last book.

[GrizBehr]

Just a thought...Alivia is supposed to help Rand die, correct...not kill him. When Tuon became Fortuona it was stated that Tuon had died. Alivia is Seanchan, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Matjess]

And what role will Alivia play in 'helping him die'. Anyone got some good ideas?

She's one of the most powerful female channellers in the world, so perhaps if she was linked with Rand via Callandor it could lead to catastrophic results.

 

 

 

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing. To tie in with my earlier question I wonder what Alivia's role will be then. If Nynaeve and Moiraine both use Callandor with Rand then Alivia is on the sidelines - this bit is where I get a little puzzled.

Me too.

 

 

 

.....a relatively unimportant side character.....

I suspect - expect - Alivia will become an important central character in aMoL.

[FarShainMael]

'Help him die' suggests that Rand wants, or at least needs, to die; or that Alivia helps him to do something which will result in his death as, er, a side-effect. One possibility is that she tells him how the Bloodrings work. Any other possibilities?

[Gabby]

I don't think Rand will die - because how else is Aviendha going to have his babies? Besides, you can't really kill off the main character. Maybe he'll come back to life again - like Arangar and Osangar.

May the Creator shelter you.

[herid]

I don't believe that there will be a single person who will be solely responsible for Rand's death. It seems pretty clear to me that that role will be split between a number of characters. I agree with Terez that Mordred's parallels are the most likely and the most obvious suspects. I just disagree with her that Gawyn is one of them. I think it's Galad not Gawyn. Here is my list of people will all "lend a hand" in this

 

1. Mordeth/Fain. He is one of the obvious Mordreds and he already gave Rand a grievous wound in his side just as Mordred did with Arthur. It's pretty heavily foreshadowed in the book that this wound will play a role in Rand's death.
   
2. Moridin. Same as Fain. Another obvious Mordred and he gave Rand anoth wound in his side too. Both wounds will definitely play a role.
   
3. Demandred. Yet another obvious Mordred. There is a battle for Caemlyn coming up and Demandred is most likely involved there. Mordred killed Arthur during the battle of Camlann.
   
4. Galad. No obvious reasons to suspect him except for strong formal parallels with Mordred.
   
5. Moiraine (maybe). She is another Damodred (so maybe a Mordred) and as discussed earlier in the thread there were some foreshadowings suggesting that she might kill Rand.
   
6. Alivia. She will play a part because of Min's viewing but I suspect it won't be a major one. She has been a very minor character thus far. She almost disappeared in the last two books - I don't think she says a word in either. From the storytelling point of view it would be very strange (and also very bad IMO) if a very minor character all of a sudden takes on supreme importance in the last book of an epic 14 book series.
   

[FarShainMael]

None of Min's Viewings of Galad or Moiraine seem to support this. Alivia, OTOH..

[herid]

None of Min's Viewings of Galad or Moiraine seem to support this. Alivia, OTOH..

That doesn't mean much if anything. Min's viewing hardly show everything. None of her viewings contradict this which is the only thing that matters.

[FarShainMael]

The point is that she Viewed Alivia's involvement in Rand's death, but did not View such involvement for Galad or Moiraine, which seems a bit of an omission if their role is at all significant.

[Southpaw89]

if I remember correctly, it's said that Alivia would help Rand die. That doesn't sound to me like she'd kill him

[Terez]

The point is that she Viewed Alivia's involvement in Rand's death, but did not View such involvement for Galad or Moiraine, which seems a bit of an omission if their role is at all significant.

RJ said she doesn't see everything. And it's unreasonable to think that RJ's going to give us the important details on the ending. Much better to throw in a red herring...like Alivia.

 

That being said, RJ said Galad and Rand aren't going to have a swordfight, and it's hard to see Galad killing him any other way. Moiraine and Gawyn are still the best bets on the Lightside, though of course others are likely to be involved. I think it will mostly be a combination of Gawyn and Moiraine. Gawyn gives him the mortal wound, and Moiraine barely saves Gawyn from ruining everything by balefiring Rand. I think her answers from the Aelfinn likely had to do with this, and also her other two requests.

[FarShainMael]

Alivia a red herring???? nvm..

 

The trouble with Gawyn wounding Rand is that Gawyn decided (ToM33) that he couldn't be bothered with Rand any more:

 

Perhaps Elayne was right. Perhaps al'Thor hadn't had anything to do with Morgase's death. If he had, Gawyn would never prove it. But that didn't matter. Rand al'Thor was already condemned to die at the LB. So why keep hating the man?

 

"She is right," Gawyn whispered, watching the hawkflies dance over the surface of the water. "We're done, al'Thor. From now on, I care nothing for you."

 

And then, of course, when Gawyn turns up at the FoM, he finds (ToM56 p816) that Morgase isn't dead at all..

 

..so, what possible reason could Gawyn have for duelling Rand? What possible 'real' or 'plot' reason? Isn't that particular arc wrapped up and done with?

[Terez]

Alivia a red herring???? nvm..

She's a red herring because everyone is convinced she's going to kill Rand, and that there is no other mystery to be solved. But that's not what Min said, and Alivia's not important enough.

 

The trouble with Gawyn wounding Rand is that Gawyn decided (ToM33) that he couldn't be bothered with Rand any more

We know, dear. But he's taking orders from Egwene now. :)

[FarShainMael]

I'll ask again. What possible reason could Gawyn have now for duelling Rand? Even bonded to Eg as he is?

[Terez]

1) Egwene wants to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

2) Rand will merge with Moridin soon. That will be a problem, presumably.

[FarShainMael]

1) So she's going to ask Gawyn to take on the most powerful channeller there has ever been?

 

He'll have to kill Mat for the foxhead first. Can you see that happening?

 

 

2) This is not a given, but it is a possibility. If it happens, Gawyn is then facing TWO very powerful channellers merged into one.

 

There are far too many holes in this. But suit yourself. Well find out next year.

[Terez]

1) So she's going to ask Gawyn to take on the most powerful channeller there has ever been?

Someone has to do it. She'll probably give him immunity against the Power in some way, and the Bloodring. And there are three of those.

 

2) This is not a given, but it is a possibility.

It's a given. Some just refuse to accept it.

 

If it happens, Gawyn is then facing TWO very powerful channellers merged into one.

I doubt it will make a difference in his strength in the Power.

[lilltempest]

1) So she's going to ask Gawyn to take on the most powerful channeller there has ever been?

Someone has to do it. She'll probably give him immunity against the Power in some way, and the Bloodring. And there are three of those.

 

2) This is not a given, but it is a possibility.

It's a given. Some just refuse to accept it.

 

If it happens, Gawyn is then facing TWO very powerful channellers merged into one.

I doubt it will make a difference in his strength in the Power.

 

I've never bought your theory that Gawyn will kill Rand, but I had a thought earlier today on the matter...

 

Instead of being as you suspect, where Egwene decides she has to kill Rand because he's "evil" (Rand is not evil, sorry), what if it is something a bit more indirect? Egwene made it clear to Gawyn that he exists for no other purpose than to serve her and see her will done. What if Egwene, whether musing to herself or speaking to someone else (like Silviana) makes an offhand comment that Rand must be stopped and, short of killing him, she knows of no way to do it? Gawyn being Gawyn - and now being her mindless slave who cannot think for himself and thinks his only "job" is to see to whatever Egwene wants - could very well take that as Egwene's wishes and go kill him. And end up totally screwing the Light ten times sideways.

 

He kills Rand (likely using the Bloodknife ring and such, so Rand never senses him coming), Dragonmount erupts, darkness falls over the entire land and all kinds of hell breaks loose. Egwene feels Gawyn dying, thanks to the ter'angreal he used, goes to him and learns he wasted Rand because she wanted it done (perhaps she could learn a lesson, too, that people around her should not mindlessly try to see her "will" done and actually behave like they, themselves, have brains). Then it could set up what you have thought all along, with her going into TAR and throwing Rand out (after speaking with Nyn and learning what happened to Birgitte, perhaps, if she'd actually listen to someone else for a change) or maybe Nyn is the one to do it, since she saw it done. Either way, it would set up the scenario you presented, in a way that makes a little more sense than "Egwene has to order someone to kill Rand because Rand is evillll!!".

[Terez]

I've never bought your theory that Gawyn will kill Rand, but I had a thought earlier today on the matter...

 

Instead of being as you suspect, where Egwene decides she has to kill Rand because he's "evil" (Rand is not evil, sorry)

I don't think Rand is evil now. I think he's linked to Moridin, and when they merge (as Min predicted, and as was foreshadowed in TEOTW 24), then he will be evil. But that's only one possibility for why Egwene might take it upon herself to sic Gawyn on Rand - she also wants to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

what if it is something a bit more indirect? Egwene made it clear to Gawyn that he exists for no other purpose than to serve her and see her will done. What if Egwene, whether musing to herself or speaking to someone else (like Silviana) makes an offhand comment that Rand must be stopped and, short of killing him, she knows of no way to do it? Gawyn being Gawyn - and now being her mindless slave who cannot think for himself and thinks his only "job" is to see to whatever Egwene wants - could very well take that as Egwene's wishes and go kill him. And end up totally screwing the Light ten times sideways.

I have thought about this possibility as well (a bit of a parallel to the Liandrin-Alwhin-Suroth scenario). It's hard to predict exactly how it will go down, since we don't have many clues beyond the Arthurian ones. (And since RJ mixes and matches Arthurian characters, even that is not entirely helpful.)

 

He kills Rand (likely using the Bloodknife ring and such, so Rand never senses him coming), Dragonmount erupts, darkness falls over the entire land and all kinds of hell breaks loose. Egwene feels Gawyn dying, thanks to the ter'angreal he used, goes to him and learns he wasted Rand because she wanted it done (perhaps she could learn a lesson, too, that people around her should not mindlessly try to see her "will" done and actually behave like they, themselves, have brains). Then it could set up what you have thought all along, with her going into TAR and throwing Rand out (after speaking with Nyn and learning what happened to Birgitte, perhaps, if she'd actually listen to someone else for a change) or maybe Nyn is the one to do it, since she saw it done. Either way, it would set up the scenario you presented, in a way that makes a little more sense than "Egwene has to order someone to kill Rand because Rand is evillll!!".

I'm pretty sure that Nynaeve will be the one to rip Rand out. Not only is she the one who knows how to do it, but there's all the foreshadowing of Nynaeve Healing death. I think you don't buy the 'because Rand is evil' scenario because you really, really want Egwene to be wrong for wanting Rand killed.

[lilltempest]

I've never bought your theory that Gawyn will kill Rand, but I had a thought earlier today on the matter...

 

Instead of being as you suspect, where Egwene decides she has to kill Rand because he's "evil" (Rand is not evil, sorry)

I don't think Rand is evil now. I think he's linked to Moridin, and when they merge (as Min predicted, and as was foreshadowed in TEOTW 24), then he will be evil. But that's only one possibility for why Egwene might take it upon herself to sic Gawyn on Rand - she also wants to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

what if it is something a bit more indirect? Egwene made it clear to Gawyn that he exists for no other purpose than to serve her and see her will done. What if Egwene, whether musing to herself or speaking to someone else (like Silviana) makes an offhand comment that Rand must be stopped and, short of killing him, she knows of no way to do it? Gawyn being Gawyn - and now being her mindless slave who cannot think for himself and thinks his only "job" is to see to whatever Egwene wants - could very well take that as Egwene's wishes and go kill him. And end up totally screwing the Light ten times sideways.

I have thought about this possibility as well (a bit of a parallel to the Liandrin-Alwhin-Suroth scenario). It's hard to predict exactly how it will go down, since we don't have many clues beyond the Arthurian ones. (And since RJ mixes and matches Arthurian characters, even that is not entirely helpful.)

 

He kills Rand (likely using the Bloodknife ring and such, so Rand never senses him coming), Dragonmount erupts, darkness falls over the entire land and all kinds of hell breaks loose. Egwene feels Gawyn dying, thanks to the ter'angreal he used, goes to him and learns he wasted Rand because she wanted it done (perhaps she could learn a lesson, too, that people around her should not mindlessly try to see her "will" done and actually behave like they, themselves, have brains). Then it could set up what you have thought all along, with her going into TAR and throwing Rand out (after speaking with Nyn and learning what happened to Birgitte, perhaps, if she'd actually listen to someone else for a change) or maybe Nyn is the one to do it, since she saw it done. Either way, it would set up the scenario you presented, in a way that makes a little more sense than "Egwene has to order someone to kill Rand because Rand is evillll!!".

I'm pretty sure that Nynaeve will be the one to rip Rand out. Not only is she the one who knows how to do it, but there's all the foreshadowing of Nynaeve Healing death. I think you don't buy the 'because Rand is evil' scenario because you really, really want Egwene to be wrong for wanting Rand killed.

 

Actually, I don't give a rat's ass about Egwene and her delusions. I simply don't see Rand becoming evil through his connection with Moridin. Darth Rand was done to death for several books and it would be stupid to go back to it, especially in light of the "Light" tendrils around his brain which are protecting him from the taint (and probably his use of the True Power). So instead of "wanting Egwene to be wrong", as you suggest, I simply reject the notion that Rand's connection to Moridin will cause him to suddenly become this Shadow-infused, uncontrollable force of evil that must be stopped (be it by Egwene or anyone else).

 

What I could see, however, is Egwene making some offhanded comment about not being able to stop Rand from doing what he wants (or from going against what she wants) without killing him. And, given that Gawyn is not the most intelligent of creatures, and has a tendency to go to extremes, I could totally see him taking Egwene's musing (because I can't see her just killing Rand over nothing more than him refusing to obey...if it came to that, she'd make a deal with Tuon to collar him in order to "protect" the world from him) as being something she wants done. Since he swore to exist only to see her will done, he would not think twice about killing Rand in order to please her and not being concerned with the consequences for the rest of the world.

[Terez]

Actually, I don't give a rat's ass about Egwene and her delusions. I simply don't see Rand becoming evil through his connection with Moridin. Darth Rand was done to death for several books and it would be stupid to go back to it, especially in light of the "Light" tendrils around his brain which are protecting him from the taint (and probably his use of the True Power).

His brain is warded against the taint, not against Moridin. They haven't merged yet, and the dream at the end of TOM indicates that Moridin is indeed still a problem. Rand overcame his own internal struggles on Dragonmount, but that was the battle against himself, not the battle against Moridin. The nifty thing about it from a storytelling perspective is that it seems like the danger is over.

 

What I could see, however, is Egwene making some offhanded comment about not being able to stop Rand from doing what he wants (or from going against what she wants) without killing him. And, given that Gawyn is not the most intelligent of creatures, and has a tendency to go to extremes, I could totally see him taking Egwene's musing (because I can't see her just killing Rand over nothing more than him refusing to obey...if it came to that, she'd make a deal with Tuon to collar him in order to "protect" the world from him) as being something she wants done. Since he swore to exist only to see her will done, he would not think twice about killing Rand in order to please her and not being concerned with the consequences for the rest of the world.

I agree he wouldn't think twice about it if Egwene seriously believed Rand was a problem. I still think Gawyn will mortally wound Rand, but I'm now convinced that Moiraine will prevent that disaster by balefiring him. If he dies any other way, the Dark One will likely have his soul. I was beginning to lean that way before TOM (a few months before), and now it's making even more sense. Problem is, it has to be a betrayal somehow for all the foreshadowing to work out. Maybe he'll just have a hand in Egwene's betrayal (Guinevere has that aspect as well). But it has to have the 'as darkness fits the sun' aspect.

[Southpaw89]

so question is, will Rand and Moridin ever get to actually battle?

[FarShainMael]

1) So she's going to ask Gawyn to take on the most powerful channeller there has ever been?

Someone has to do it. She'll probably give him immunity against the Power in some way, and the Bloodring. And there are three of those.

 

How? she doesn't have any of Elayne's medallions.

 

2) This is not a given, but it is a possibility.

It's a given. Some just refuse to accept it.

 

I take it you mean this:

 

"I saw you (Rand) and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

'seemed to merge'.. could this just refer to the forming of the link between Rand and Moridin, rather than an actual Slayer-style mixing? That occurs not very much later - ACoS41.

 

I will admit, though, I don't want them to merge like Slayer, and I don't want them to swap bodies, either. But then, I'm not the author..

 

@southpaw89: since one of them dies and one doesn't, that would seem to indicate that Rand and Moridin have some kind of engagement.

 

If it happens, Gawyn is then facing TWO very powerful channellers merged into one.

I doubt it will make a difference in his strength in the Power.

 

And then again, it may. We don't know.