Why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head?

[alykyn]

Even the Chosen will admit that enough of these 'so called Aes Sedai' could be dangerous to them and that a shield of 13 Aes Sedai can not be broken. Heck Semmirhage's shield was held by what 2, 3 of these so called Aes Sedai (and not even notably strong ones to boot!). However Rand is now supposedly so strong that not even 2 circles of 13 could hold him. According to everything RJ has shown us before this is extremely contradictory to his channeling system.

 

From the Age of Legends no one has been more powerful than UltraRand is now, why suddenly is this supposed to be believable? Ok, so he isn't insane any more, he doesn't hear LTT in his head and he doesn't have the sickness when seizing Saidin, but even with every bit of knowledge LTT has, how does that make him infinitely stronger than LTT ever, ever was? Unlike some others, its not like Rand really invented any weaves of his own, practically everything came from someone else's advice including LTT so there's no 'Rand knowledge' to really add to LTT's.

 

What Rand did in Maradon was effectively 'wrong' according to everything RJ has stated that a channeler can do unaided.

 

Now in Aviendha's going through the pillars she sees this possible future where her and Rand's children not only channel from birth, but they can channel continuously without ever having to release the OP. Huh?!? Sure it may sound cool, but this ALSO goes against EVERYTHING that RJ has taught us. Aviendha is strong, but she's not THAT strong for her and Rand's genetics to go insane. Heck, I wouldn't even accept this if Rand screwed around with Alivia or even Lanfear and produced these kids.

 

Maybe you will just chalk it up to Rand's ta'veren'ness in being able to break the double 13 circle, but Maradon too? And no matter what excuse for Rand someone can come up with, whats the excuse for his god like children's abilities? Surely with the DO sealed/destroyed/whatever there would be no reason for his kids to be ta'verens even stronger than the Dragon Reborn, so after thousands and thousands of years of genetic pairings that follow RJ's One Power rules suddenly all the rules are shattered to pieces and thrown out the window?

 

Do we know for sure this is what RJ even wanted? I mean we don't know if RJ even wrote any of this in his notes so who knows why this even happened. It just seems out of character for RJ to shatter all these OP rules he's been using for a dozen books. And if this was his explicit desire why doesn't it make any logical sense that fits in with the other dozen books? I wonder if Rand is now even more powerful than he was with the Choedan Kal? *boggles*

[Aquarius]

Rand cannot break the double 13 shield. He IS shielded during his time in Tar Valon. He just doesn't feel threatened by the AS. He shows no concern. In Egwene PoV (or Siuan, can't remember), she says that he sits calmly with a 26 shield as if he could break it easily.

 

Rand in Maradon is something else entirely. I suspect we have never seen Ishamael or Lanfear really trying to do something awsome. So, yes, it IS impressive, but I'm not sure the amount of power is that much out of bounds. the SKILL certainly is (number/complexity of weaves). That is the only point I will concede : it does indeed seem to be coming out of nowhere.

 

As for the children channelling, I have no explanation except that it's not sure to happen. (and with Avi knowing about the fate of the Aiel, probably won't happen that way).

[alykyn]

Rand cannot break the double 13 shield. He IS shielded during his time in Tar Valon. He just doesn't feel threatened by the AS. He shows no concern. In Egwene PoV (or Siuan, can't remember), she says that he sits calmly with a 26 shield as if he could break it easily.

 

Just to play with this point a bit more, I think Egwene says she is sure that Rand could break the shield with ease if he wanted to and that she felt she dare not even try to prevent him from leaving as she was sure that he could not be held no matter how strong a shield was placed on him. This is significant since she is the ONLY one who was NOT really affected by the super powerful ta'veren'ness Rand was drawing on in this scene, remember no other Aes Sedai but Egwene was even able to open their mouth to speak.

 

Egwene was not affected, maybe because she knew Rand well, and still she was sure that they could not have held that shield on him should he wished to have broken it, to me that says either she still felt his ta'veren'ness enough to be overly worried, or somehow she actually could sense that his power had increased beyond anything the Aes Sedai had encountered before.

[Aquarius]

Just to play with this point a bit more, I think Egwene says she is sure that Rand could break the shield with ease if he wanted to and that she felt she dare not even try to prevent him from leaving as she was sure that he could not be held no matter how strong a shield was placed on him. This is significant since she is the ONLY one who was NOT really affected by the super powerful ta'veren'ness Rand was drawing on in this scene, remember no other Aes Sedai but Egwene was even able to open their mouth to speak.

 

Egwene was not affected, maybe because she knew Rand well, and still she was sure that they could not have held that shield on him should he wished to have broken it, to me that says either she still felt his ta'veren'ness enough to be overly worried, or somehow she actually could sense that his power had increased beyond anything the Aes Sedai had encountered before.

Mmm not sure about that. She IS affected. She begins the meeting sure of herself and of the things she wants to say, and ends up with not much. Her strong will overcame the ta'veren effect to some extent, allowing her to speak, but the not much more than the other AS present.

So I'm not sure her account of the meeting are very factual. And even more than that: how the hell could she "sense" how strong a man channeling would be ?? My feeling is that he could have broken the shields not with the OP but with the ta'veren effect, just causig the 26 AS to stop maintaining the weave, or causing the weaves to fall appart... Rand has an aura of self confidence so strong that she certainly could believe him to be strong enough to break out... but I don't think he would be, Power-wise.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene was affecteed. She did what the pattern wanted her to. She was meant to speak.

 

Her feeling dizzy afterwards is a sign of her doing what Rand wanted.

 

Look at Galad later with Perrin. After he accepted Perrin's command, he had to sit down because he was dizzy.

 

Ta'veren is not the ability to shut people up. As we see later, Rand WANTED her to gather all of the armies while he did what he wanted. Thats why he didnt explain his plan to her. To get her angry.

 

As to the rest, I am not sure if you understand it completely.

 

He couldnt have broken the shield, its his Ta'veren affecting Egwene. She thinks he can, but she is wrong.

 

Maradon, as stated, it was more to do with the complexity of the weaves, not strength, its not that crazy. Besides, we dont know if Rand has an angreal or sa'angreal anyway. I would hardly call it impossible in terms of RJ's channeling system.

 

And his kids, thats nothing. Androl can weave gateways when he should not have the power to. Times are changing, everyone has different talents.

 

Basically, it is strange, but hardly turned on its head.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I disagree to some degree. Rand could probably have broken the shield. Aviendha's children are proof that the way Rand accesses saidin has changed. And Maradon outstrips anything Rand has done unaided before in complexity and scale.

 

However this does not turn the channelling system on its head. My theory on the strength increase of channellers is that as they gain more proficiency their physical bodies change in some way to become more suitable or less resistant to the flow of the One Power. Rand before VoG was thought to be as strong as a man could possibly be, like Lanfear was for women, or in other words his body was most suitable to channelling the One Power. The way I understand how channelling works VoG was the epitome of forcing. Rand by drawing beyond his capacity forced himself to grow beyond what was thought to be the human limit and that resulted in this change where he has a body that is perfectly suited to the One Power. And apparently he passes that body on to his children.

I think others who are at the limit of their gender like Lanfear and perhaps Alivia for women or Demandred for men could achieve the same state if they had a giant sa'angreal they could demolish in the process.

 

If that's the case I don't see how Rand is breaking any laws of channelling. There are afterall only very few true laws in channelling. This whole a full circle is stronger than any man isn't a true law, it's just an observation based on empiric data. Rand may have changed that it no longer applies to him just like his kids show that the general assumption that girls become able to channel in the early half of puberty and boys in the later half no longer applies to them.

 

@alykyn Rand did invent one weave I believe. The sword of light which can cut someone off from the Dark One is something of his own devision I think.

[WhiskyJack]

We debate for the sake of debating. I have not seen Rand breaking any full circle shield. Whats the point about debating something totally unproven?

 

I don't know why people quote Maradon scene so much. We don't know how many shadowspawn he actually killed but even if he killed 100k, so what? Rand is now at height of his power. Not only he can channel to his full potential, he knows how to effectively use it too. Also, this was only second time when he had pushed himself to limit (cleansing of Saidin was first). I can bet everyone's arse that if Dragon and Moridin came face to face, they be evenly matched.

[Thanatos]

I just think the Maradon thing can be chalked up to "Maxing out."

 

Has it ever been explicitly stated that Rand was at his maximum potential before ToM? I know alot of the fans like to think that he was, but I'm not buying it. Doesn't it take 10(?) years for a man to reach their full potential, unless forced?

 

Granted, Rand has been forced, but so much so that he reaches his maximum in 2 years? I don't think so. And as stated above, we have NEVER seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, all we see when forsaken fight is small confrontations.

 

I really have nothing to say about Rand's kids, but I chalk that up to new talents. Everyone always looks back to say how great the AoL is. Whose to say that the next Age won't be even greater?

[he who comes with a bong]

i belive he is the light incarnate now after vog he has the power of the creator thats what my thoughts are on the shiny brain and all that jazz and as far as maradon i think that was a construck kinda on the lines of what he did in the stone of tear to seek out all the shadowspawn thats why it only took out the trollocs and all the rest

 

thats just my thoughts on it

[Eichhörnchen]

Shields are pointless against Al'Thor, through his unique link with Moridin, Rand has continued unlimited access to tap into the True Power. A much more destructive and powerful essence than Saidin. Absolutely nothing to stop him from simply making a gateway with the True Power and leaving. Special circumstances require special tools, I doubt the Dragon would be above employing the True Power if its use meant his survival and ability to fulfill his goal.

[WhiskyJack]

i belive he is the light incarnate now after vog he has the power of the creator thats what my thoughts are on the shiny brain and all that jazz and as far as maradon i think that was a construck kinda on the lines of what he did in the stone of tear to seek out all the shadowspawn thats why it only took out the trollocs and all the rest

 

thats just my thoughts on it

 

 

Masema, you still alive and kicking?

[WhiskyJack]

Shields are pointless against Al'Thor, through his unique link with Moridin, Rand has continued unlimited access to tap into the True Power. A much more destructive and powerful essence than Saidin. Absolutely nothing to stop him from simply making a gateway with the True Power and leaving. Special circumstances require special tools, I doubt the Dragon would be above employing the True Power if its use meant his survival and ability to fulfill his goal.

 

 

Not anymore. He has rejected DO and his filthy power (TP) and temptations (Lanfear).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Shields are pointless against Al'Thor, through his unique link with Moridin, Rand has continued unlimited access to tap into the True Power. A much more destructive and powerful essence than Saidin. Absolutely nothing to stop him from simply making a gateway with the True Power and leaving. Special circumstances require special tools, I doubt the Dragon would be above employing the True Power if its use meant his survival and ability to fulfill his goal.

 

Sorry, that isnt how it works.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

[Eichhörnchen]

Shields are pointless against Al'Thor, through his unique link with Moridin, Rand has continued unlimited access to tap into the True Power. A much more destructive and powerful essence than Saidin. Absolutely nothing to stop him from simply making a gateway with the True Power and leaving. Special circumstances require special tools, I doubt the Dragon would be above employing the True Power if its use meant his survival and ability to fulfill his goal.

 

 

Not anymore. He has rejected DO and his filthy power (TP) and temptations (Lanfear).

 

 

Filthy?

[Eichhörnchen]

Shields are pointless against Al'Thor, through his unique link with Moridin, Rand has continued unlimited access to tap into the True Power. A much more destructive and powerful essence than Saidin. Absolutely nothing to stop him from simply making a gateway with the True Power and leaving. Special circumstances require special tools, I doubt the Dragon would be above employing the True Power if its use meant his survival and ability to fulfill his goal.

 

Sorry, that isnt how it works.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

 

 

 

Hmmmmmmm. Interesting, I didn't know that. Seems kind of an odd concept though.

 

Either way. Can't one manually unshield oneself such as Al'Thor did with the knots?

[Barid Bel Medar]

mmmm, I dont think so. Rand did that when the Aes Sedai tied of the shield, which made it harden, and there were only a few, far less than 26 holding it.

 

However, I am not sure really, it may be possible for him to break free somehow.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't know why people quote Maradon scene so much. We don't know how many shadowspawn he actually killed but even if he killed 100k, so what? Rand is now at height of his power. Not only he can channel to his full potential, he knows how to effectively use it too. Also, this was only second time when he had pushed himself to limit (cleansing of Saidin was first). I can bet everyone's arse that if Dragon and Moridin came face to face, they be evenly matched.

People quote Maradon so much because what Rand did there unaided goes beyond everything he or anyone else has ever shown in battle. He was described as an army of channellers by himself and Ituralde did have 100 Asha'man augmenting his forces in the defense of Maradon as I recall so he should know enough to tell us that what Rand did there made all their efforts pale in comparison.

 

Moridin would be the avatar of the DO with full access to the TP. That should be enough of an advantage to be evenly matched even with Rand as a super channeller. Besides there is Min's viewing of how Callandor might be used against him if it isn't enough.

 

 

I just think the Maradon thing can be chalked up to "Maxing out."

 

Has it ever been explicitly stated that Rand was at his maximum potential before ToM? I know alot of the fans like to think that he was, but I'm not buying it. Doesn't it take 10(?) years for a man to reach their full potential, unless forced?

 

Granted, Rand has been forced, but so much so that he reaches his maximum in 2 years? I don't think so. And as stated above, we have NEVER seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, all we see when forsaken fight is small confrontations.

 

I really have nothing to say about Rand's kids, but I chalk that up to new talents. Everyone always looks back to say how great the AoL is. Whose to say that the next Age won't be even greater?

 

I rather doubt that this is merely Rand maxing out. The current Rand is being portrayed as superior to how he was as LTT.

 

 

We may have never seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, but we don't need to. We have seen Rand in action in plenty of battles and we have heard enough to give us atleast a rough estimate of what Sammael and Rahvin would have been capable of and that's nothing like what Rand did there.

[Pygmalion79]

mmmm, I dont think so. Rand did that when the Aes Sedai tied of the shield, which made it harden, and there were only a few, far less than 26 holding it.

 

However, I am not sure really, it may be possible for him to break free somehow.

Darth Rand was, by his own account, able to make someone's heart stop beating through the ta'veran effect alone. I wouldn't bet against his being able to break the shield of 26 Aes Sedai in the same way.

[WhiskyJack]

I don't know why people quote Maradon scene so much. We don't know how many shadowspawn he actually killed but even if he killed 100k, so what? Rand is now at height of his power. Not only he can channel to his full potential, he knows how to effectively use it too. Also, this was only second time when he had pushed himself to limit (cleansing of Saidin was first). I can bet everyone's arse that if Dragon and Moridin came face to face, they be evenly matched.

People quote Maradon so much because what Rand did there unaided goes beyond everything he or anyone else has ever shown in battle. He was described as an army of channellers by himself and Ituralde did have 100 Asha'man augmenting his forces in the defense of Maradon as I recall so he should know enough to tell us that what Rand did there made all their efforts pale in comparison.

 

Ahem...Rand not only is much much stronger than an average Asha'man (he is most powerful channeler ever born), his knowledge of One Power exceeds even Forsaken! It's not just about how much you can channel or whether you know one weave or not. Remember that LTT attacked DO itself (or atleast center of his power where mere holding of power can get you killed). Why would it surprise anyone that Rand now can repeat the feats of LTT (yes his feats). Besides those Asha'man were fighting for probably weeks.

 

Moridin would be the avatar of the DO with full access to the TP. That should be enough of an advantage to be evenly matched even with Rand as a super channeller. Besides there is Min's viewing of how Callandor might be used against him if it isn't enough.

 

 

The what? Why do I even bother...All forsaken had access to TP during AoL. What is this obsession with TP? Moridin is not an avatar of DO!

 

 

 

I rather doubt that this is merely Rand maxing out. The current Rand is being portrayed as superior to how he was as LTT.

 

By fanboys ofcourse! Did Sanderson once say that Rand is 5 LTT combined? Rand has one big advantage over LTT, he posses all the skill and knowledge of a 450 year old man at the age of 22. LTT had to work on these things, Rand just acquired them.

 

We may have never seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, but we don't need to. We have seen Rand in action in plenty of battles and we have heard enough to give us atleast a rough estimate of what Sammael and Rahvin would have been capable of and that's nothing like what Rand did there.

 

We have heard NOTHING to give us estimate about Sammael or Rahvin except that even in AoL, they were someone people feared. Sammael or Rahvin were great generals, they didn't fight personally unless it was channeler vs. channeler.

[WhiskyJack]

mmmm, I dont think so. Rand did that when the Aes Sedai tied of the shield, which made it harden, and there were only a few, far less than 26 holding it.

 

However, I am not sure really, it may be possible for him to break free somehow.

Darth Rand was, by his own account, able to make someone's heart stop beating through the ta'veran effect alone. I wouldn't bet against his being able to break the shield of 26 Aes Sedai in the same way.

 

 

I read it a bit differently. He said that if he wills it, pattern can stop the heart.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't know why people quote Maradon scene so much. We don't know how many shadowspawn he actually killed but even if he killed 100k, so what? Rand is now at height of his power. Not only he can channel to his full potential, he knows how to effectively use it too. Also, this was only second time when he had pushed himself to limit (cleansing of Saidin was first). I can bet everyone's arse that if Dragon and Moridin came face to face, they be evenly matched.

People quote Maradon so much because what Rand did there unaided goes beyond everything he or anyone else has ever shown in battle. He was described as an army of channellers by himself and Ituralde did have 100 Asha'man augmenting his forces in the defense of Maradon as I recall so he should know enough to tell us that what Rand did there made all their efforts pale in comparison.

 

Ahem...Rand not only is much much stronger than an average Asha'man (he is most powerful channeler ever born), his knowledge of One Power exceeds even Forsaken! It's not just about how much you can channel or whether you know one weave or not. Remember that LTT attacked DO itself (or atleast center of his power where mere holding of power can get you killed). Why would it surprise anyone that Rand now can repeat the feats of LTT (yes his feats). Besides those Asha'man were fighting for probably weeks.

 

Yeah he's stronger than the average Asha'man, but he now does within an hour more than 100 Asha'man did within a week or more. What Rand did in Maradon goes beyond what LTT could have done. Why would it surprise anyone that Rand now can exceed the feats of LTT (yes his feats)? Everyone knows Rand will do better than he did in his previous incarnation.

 

Moridin would be the avatar of the DO with full access to the TP. That should be enough of an advantage to be evenly matched even with Rand as a super channeller. Besides there is Min's viewing of how Callandor might be used against him if it isn't enough.

 

 

The what? Why do I even bother...All forsaken had access to TP during AoL. What is this obsession with TP? Moridin is not an avatar of DO!

 

Most forsaken were very hesitant about using the TP and that access was restricted. Moridin as nae'blis pretty much has a carte blanche right now. Nad it's not as if I was obsessed with TP. It's just quite an advantage if Moridin can see whatever Rand weaves but Rand can't see what Moridin does.

 

And as for Moridin being an avatar. Well, perhaps not exactly. But if the DO channels its power through Moridin and chooses him as its champion that comes rather close.

 

I rather doubt that this is merely Rand maxing out. The current Rand is being portrayed as superior to how he was as LTT.

 

By fanboys ofcourse! Did Sanderson once say that Rand is 5 LTT combined? Rand has one big advantage over LTT, he posses all the skill and knowledge of a 450 year old man at the age of 22. LTT had to work on these things, Rand just acquired them.

 

I'm talking about in the book. Not on the forum. Reread what Rand says about himself before he meets the borderlanders in ToM, that's why he is superior. It's not talking about the OP, but the way he is described in the book should make it clear that the current Dragon surpasses how he was in the previous age.

 

We may have never seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, but we don't need to. We have seen Rand in action in plenty of battles and we have heard enough to give us atleast a rough estimate of what Sammael and Rahvin would have been capable of and that's nothing like what Rand did there.

 

We have heard NOTHING to give us estimate about Sammael or Rahvin except that even in AoL, they were someone people feared. Sammael or Rahvin were great generals, they didn't fight personally unless it was channeler vs. channeler.

 

We've gotten reports on Sammael from Flinn I believe it was when he attacked while Rand's forces were marching on Illian. And what Sammael did wasn't even a fraction of what Rand did in Maradon. As for Rahvin his tactics in Cairhien and in the defense of Caemlyn don't hint to me that he could come anywhere close to what Rand did. And as for the rest of the Forsaken, except for Moridin they failed pretty badly against the circles in the Cleansing which doesn't tell me they could come anywhere close to Rand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

as mentioned before, it was most likely an updated version of the crazy shadowspawn killing Rand did in tSR in the Stone. With that, Shadowspawn are easy to kill. Nothing really "new" about it.

 

Remember Bashere or Ituralde commenting on how nobody could be that accurate striking the shadowspawn.

 

Exactly the same as in the Stone.

[herid]

Egwene was affecteed. She did what the pattern wanted her to. She was meant to speak.

 

Her feeling dizzy afterwards is a sign of her doing what Rand wanted.

 

Look at Galad later with Perrin. After he accepted Perrin's command, he had to sit down because he was dizzy.

 

Ta'veren is not the ability to shut people up. As we see later, Rand WANTED her to gather all of the armies while he did what he wanted. Thats why he didnt explain his plan to her. To get her angry.

 

As to the rest, I am not sure if you understand it completely.

 

He couldnt have broken the shield, its his Ta'veren affecting Egwene. She thinks he can, but she is wrong.

That's speculation. We don't know that. Both Rand and Egwene seemd to think that he could have. Moreover, ta'veren affect is not a sure thing. It does not work on demand and Rand could not be sure it would help him in that situation. yet, he seemed quite confident that he could deal with their shields if need be. He definitely undergone some change during VoG which is not understood.

 

Maradon, as stated, it was more to do with the complexity of the weaves, not strength, its not that crazy.

that's not how it's described either. None of the Forsaken who are just as experienced as LTT ever did anything remotely close to what Rand did at Maradon.

Besides, we dont know if Rand has an angreal or sa'angreal anyway. I would hardly call it impossible in terms of RJ's channeling system.

 

This has been discussed before. It might have been possible but unlikely. Callandor is too big and would have been noticed. Rand is not known to have any other angreal or sa'angreal. Also, when he was visiting Egwene he definitely didn't have anything with him. He came straight from the Dragonmount.

[WhiskyJack]

 

that's not how it's described either. None of the Forsaken who are just as experienced as LTT ever did anything remotely close to what Rand did at Maradon.

 

 

 

I am sure Book doesn't describe anything. Naeff and bunch of non channelers saw what Rand did. It's their POV. Naeff only said that he had never seen so many weaves at same time and Ituralde claimed that Dragon was like an army of channelers. Now both of them are basing this on their own experience! To make it sound like Naeff was born in Aol (or other age) and he absolutely knows the strength of all male channelers is stretching it too thin.

 

And whats with this claim about Forsaken? There is almost no record of what Forsaken did or didn't do. Only thing we do know is that LTT was losing the war. Is everyone just making stuff up?

[WhiskyJack]

I don't know why people quote Maradon scene so much. We don't know how many shadowspawn he actually killed but even if he killed 100k, so what? Rand is now at height of his power. Not only he can channel to his full potential, he knows how to effectively use it too. Also, this was only second time when he had pushed himself to limit (cleansing of Saidin was first). I can bet everyone's arse that if Dragon and Moridin came face to face, they be evenly matched.

People quote Maradon so much because what Rand did there unaided goes beyond everything he or anyone else has ever shown in battle. He was described as an army of channellers by himself and Ituralde did have 100 Asha'man augmenting his forces in the defense of Maradon as I recall so he should know enough to tell us that what Rand did there made all their efforts pale in comparison.

 

Ahem...Rand not only is much much stronger than an average Asha'man (he is most powerful channeler ever born), his knowledge of One Power exceeds even Forsaken! It's not just about how much you can channel or whether you know one weave or not. Remember that LTT attacked DO itself (or atleast center of his power where mere holding of power can get you killed). Why would it surprise anyone that Rand now can repeat the feats of LTT (yes his feats). Besides those Asha'man were fighting for probably weeks.

 

Yeah he's stronger than the average Asha'man, but he now does within an hour more than 100 Asha'man did within a week or more. What Rand did in Maradon goes beyond what LTT could have done. Why would it surprise anyone that Rand now can exceed the feats of LTT (yes his feats)? Everyone knows Rand will do better than he did in his previous incarnation.

 

Moridin would be the avatar of the DO with full access to the TP. That should be enough of an advantage to be evenly matched even with Rand as a super channeller. Besides there is Min's viewing of how Callandor might be used against him if it isn't enough.

 

 

The what? Why do I even bother...All forsaken had access to TP during AoL. What is this obsession with TP? Moridin is not an avatar of DO!

 

Most forsaken were very hesitant about using the TP and that access was restricted. Moridin as nae'blis pretty much has a carte blanche right now. Nad it's not as if I was obsessed with TP. It's just quite an advantage if Moridin can see whatever Rand weaves but Rand can't see what Moridin does.

 

And as for Moridin being an avatar. Well, perhaps not exactly. But if the DO channels its power through Moridin and chooses him as its champion that comes rather close.

 

I rather doubt that this is merely Rand maxing out. The current Rand is being portrayed as superior to how he was as LTT.

 

By fanboys ofcourse! Did Sanderson once say that Rand is 5 LTT combined? Rand has one big advantage over LTT, he posses all the skill and knowledge of a 450 year old man at the age of 22. LTT had to work on these things, Rand just acquired them.

 

I'm talking about in the book. Not on the forum. Reread what Rand says about himself before he meets the borderlanders in ToM, that's why he is superior. It's not talking about the OP, but the way he is described in the book should make it clear that the current Dragon surpasses how he was in the previous age.

 

We may have never seen what Moridin could do against a massive army, but we don't need to. We have seen Rand in action in plenty of battles and we have heard enough to give us atleast a rough estimate of what Sammael and Rahvin would have been capable of and that's nothing like what Rand did there.

 

We have heard NOTHING to give us estimate about Sammael or Rahvin except that even in AoL, they were someone people feared. Sammael or Rahvin were great generals, they didn't fight personally unless it was channeler vs. channeler.

 

We've gotten reports on Sammael from Flinn I believe it was when he attacked while Rand's forces were marching on Illian. And what Sammael did wasn't even a fraction of what Rand did in Maradon. As for Rahvin his tactics in Cairhien and in the defense of Caemlyn don't hint to me that he could come anywhere close to what Rand did. And as for the rest of the Forsaken, except for Moridin they failed pretty badly against the circles in the Cleansing which doesn't tell me they could come anywhere close to Rand.

 

Half of things you are claiming are either not in the book or you just read the book the way you want to and not whats written. The story is not about how you "feel" like it. I hope you are not the voice of majority because this is downright silly.