Peculiarities of the DO.

[Luckers]

Indeed Bob, the significance of the choice is massive in zoroasterianism. Ahura mazda literally means 'The Wise Lord' because he made the wise choice, and Ahura Mazda made the foolish one. That being said there is also something inherent to their natures that led to this. Its not Ahura Mazda that stops Angra Mainyu from creating, its his own blindness and lack of understandng. But the reverse is equally true. Ahura Mazda would never be able to aid in a war.

 

You see the analogy im drawing? Perhaps the Creator does not aid the Light because he cannot. It is not in his power to destroy, or even do something that may lead to destruction. Equal and opposite is the key. Opposite forces can not always act on each other if their inherent natures decry that. Imagine trying to use the force of gravity to burn something. The Creator may have been able to create a prison, but i doubt he would ever be able to directly confront the Dark One, or take any part in the war against him.

[SinisterDeath]

Would that also hold true of the DO? He'd never be able to directly confront the Creator, simply because he can't destroy somethign that could litterally create whatever he destroyed, even its self?

 

And given the Creators methods. He'd just keep running away making new worlds as the DO destroyed them.. Or possibly just imprissoning him again, and again and again.

[Luckers]

Theoretically he could destroy the Creator though... it's in his nature. Which could explain the wheel itself... it was created to serve as a shield and protect the Creator from the Dark One.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You make interesting points, Luckers, but...

 

The whole premise of the series is not simply that the DO is out to destroy the universe, but also to create a new one according to his own design.

 

Therefore, the DO embodies both the traits of destruction and creation. It's merely that his nature is predominanly destructive ( which may well be inherently due to his circumstance - an enclosed and rigidly circumscribed existence. In order to become more he needs to be free. )

 

Likewise The Creator, being free and unconstrained has the psychic room to be predominantly creative. Put him in a box and deprive him of all freedom and he could well become pretty destructive.

 

It may be nothing other than environment that defines the attitude and manner with which they approach things. The Creator, being free has the benefit of perspective. The DO, tied up in a box does not. Reverse their positions and you may reverse their natures.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, it says he will remake it in his image. So, if he is the embodiment of chaos and destruction, then destroying the universe IS remaking it in his image.

 

Also, the Dark One either pre-dates Creation, or he came into existence at the moment of Creation, in the act of being imprisoned. In the first case, his nature would have been determined before Creation, and so is not the result of his imprisonment. In the second case, everything he is derives from the act of imprisonment, so he has no nature outside of that framework. Either way there is no basis for assuming he will act differently if free of his imprisonment. Indeed, there is no reason to suppose that he will even survive freedom from imprisonment. His penchant for desctruction may include himself as its ultimate expression. His motives and methods are not human.

[Luckers]

I disagree. I think the Dark One merely intends to destroy th universe... something the Forsaken are unaware of due to their blindness, aside from Moridin.

 

Additionally, we do not know that the Cretor is free, nor that the Dark One is bound... people thing he is bound, and that the Creator made a prison for him, but they also thought the Dragon was a darkfriends and Aes Sedai were unilatirally the Dark Ones servants.

 

Indeed, based on what we have seen, the creator is trying to get in to the wheel, not out of a prison. the wheel is a circle that excludes him, not contains him. And from what we have seen of the Creator... if indeed we have seen anything at all, he has no power to influence anything, implying some sort of binding.

 

He is not the Christian God, and Shai'tan is not Satan. Look only at the evidence we have seen, not at connections which are unsupportable.

[Guest Fire Lord]

It's not every day you see such a profound discussion like this, The Creator and the Dark one themselves would agree with me.

I've always wondered at the nature of the Dark One, and one point you raised here, if the Creator could lock him/her/it somewhere, couldn't he/she/it finish he/she/it also?

I don't know. I used to see the Creator as omnipotent and so on, and the Dark One as a slightly lesser, horribly evil version of the Creator but now I am not so sure.

To someone who suggested that the Creator may not be able to destroy, we have been told throught the series that the Dark One wants to destroy the world and remake it in his own image. If this is true, doesn't that mean that he can create? I would think the Creator then would be able to destroy and so on.

[Luckers]

Again this is something believed by those in a position to want to believe it (the forsaken), not a proven fact. Indeed it seems that Moridin at least is aware of the Dark Ons true plans.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To someone who suggested that the Creator may not be able to destroy, we have been told throught the series that the Dark One wants to destroy the world and remake it in his own image. If this is true, doesn't that mean that he can create?

 

Not if his "image" is the image of chaos and destruction. Then remaking it in his image is destroying it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, his image is that of chaos for certain. Destruction... utter, total, there-is-nothing-at-all-left-anywhere-anywhen destruction... it's impossible to say.

 

Were the DO to win, whatever emerges afterward would be very different. I doubt it would be total nothingness.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I doubt it would be total nothingness.

 

Why?

[Bob T Dwarf]

If he just wanted to die, it's a whole lot simpler to curl up in a ball and do so rather than go through endless ages of struggle and strife.

 

Whatever else the DO may want, he/she/it does want to continue to exist. He simply wants the conditions of his exitence to be different from what they are now.

[Luckers]

The Dark One doesn't need the wheel to exist. Indeed by all indications the Wheel seems to bother his existence--whether simply on a psychological level (something nagging at his mind) or on some more real level, he can't simply ignore its existence or else he would have simply given up thousands of turnings ago.

[SinisterDeath]

Luckers, Do you think theres the slight possibility, that the Dark One, is actually the Creator, who got 'infected' by his own evil and locked him self up to prevent the destruction of the universe? :P

 

Would be an interesting twist...

[Luckers]

I think its perfectly possible. I also think there may have never have been a creator... the wheel could simply have grown, and the Dark One have grown as a sort of parasite outside of it.

[Guardsman Bass]

The only thing that bugs me about the whole "Re-make creation in the image of chaos" type of point is that Shaitan himself has a degree of order. He thinks, he plans, the like. It just seems more like he wants to simply re-shape creation (not necessarily destroying it, merely re-shaping it as he sees it), than reducing everything to pure chaos.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The DO seems capable of carrying on a coherent discussion. Whether that implies that its thinking is entirely or always coherent is another question.

 

I'm not sure that there is anything we would recognize as an orderly progression to its thoughts, or any overall coherence to its plans.

 

At best, all we can say from what we have been given by the author is that whatever emerged from any victory by the DO would be very different from what currently exists. There is no certainty, even a faint one, about what form those differences might take.

[RobertAlexWillis]

At best, all we can say from what we have been given by the author is that whatever emerged from any victory by the DO would be very different from what currently exists. There is no certainty, even a faint one, about what form those differences might take.

 

That is true.

 

Its also the reason we are all speculating.

 

If he just wanted to die, it's a whole lot simpler to curl up in a ball and do so rather than go through endless ages of struggle and strife.

 

I don't think anyone said he just wanted to "die". I'm not even sure he can "die" in the same way a human can. His objective seems ... SEEMS ... to be the destruction of everyone and everything else. Jordan has described him this way

 

He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak.

 

(from http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 , answer from the Week 9 qusetion, February 1st, 2005 - July 19th, 2005)

 

The only universe in which one can be guaranteed of having complete and total control is a universe in which one is the only consciousness. So, destroying every other consciousness is, potentially, one of his goals. Whether that would be augmented by total physical destruction/reorganization is really rather irrelevant to anyone who is a consciousness. That is one reason why I think part of the price for using the True Power is a loss of individual will, (with saa and eventually internal flaming caverns as an outward indication) and why Moridin is so trusted by the Dark One. It matches the nature of the Powers (use of the One Power is subject to the individual will of each channeler, use of the True Power is always subject to the Dark One's will) and the nature of the contending entities (the Creator quite obviously allows free will, the Dark One develops methods like the 13 Myrdraal forced turning circle).

 

All that is suggestive, but it is not ironclad proof. Since ironclad proof does not exist, I'll stick with that theory.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The DO has grown accustomed to "company" and lackeys. Whether he finds the reward from that equal to the cost of other beings acting outside of his complete control or not is the question.

 

It's at least suggestive of whatever he would "create" as a result of victory having some other form of life.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The DO has grown accustomed to "company" and lackeys.

 

I'm sorry, how do you have any way of knowing what he is "accustomed" to? Or whether or not he likes being accustomed to it? He uses lackeys now because he has no choice, he's in prison. That is no indication that he prefers it that way. He's certainly shown no emotional attachment to or fondness for any of his servants.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If someting is in your presence for any length of time, you become accustomed to it.

 

As my reply stated, there is no indication whether the presence of any other lifeforms is something the DO finds pleasing or displeasing. They are simply something he has become accustomed to through long exposure.

 

And, while it is good to be the king, that sort of requires that you have somebody around to lord it over. It also helps that the DO has learned that others can be helpful in accomplishing things one cannot do for oneself.

 

None of which "proves" anything about what the DO would actually do if it won. It merely suggests that life would continue in some fashion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If someting is in your presence for any length of time, you become accustomed to it.

 

That is assuming you're human.

 

As my reply stated, there is no indication whether the presence of any other lifeforms is something the DO finds pleasing or displeasing.

 

Except that his minions enjoy torturing things to death and he's called the Lord of the Grave ... but go on ...

 

They are simply something he has become accustomed to through long exposure.

 

That is assuming he is human. And even if it is true, "accustomed to" and "like" are two different things.

 

And, while it is good to be the king, that sort of requires that you have somebody around to lord it over.

 

Not if your ideal kingdom is pure elemental chaos. The Dark One's motives aren't human, remember?

 

It also helps that the DO has learned that others can be helpful in accomplishing things one cannot do for oneself.

 

But if he is free, will he still need any servants? He will no longer be in Prison, then.

 

None of which "proves" anything about what the DO would actually do if it won. It merely suggests that life would continue in some fashion.

 

As you are fond of saying: In your opinion.

[Luckers]

Also the Dark One has been in the presense of humans for 3000 years.. and thats assuming that the limited contact he was capable of having with the world after he was sealed in can be concidered viable... which im not sure it is... if it was he would have protected the male forsaken from going made during the Breaking. But even saying that all 3000 years can be counted... what is that to a being that has endured for millenia? Its like saying that a human gets accostomed to a fly landing on their hand for three seconds... so accostomed that it can't live without it...

[Aspar]

But the same fly keeps on landing time after time. And it's not alone.

 

Hi, all!

[RobertAlexWillis]

But the same fly keeps on landing time after time. And it's not alone.

 

What Luckers is saying is that to a being who has existed for possibly billions of years, 3000 years of limited human company is like a fly landing on us only once.

 

What I say is "who cares". Even if he is "accustomed" to it, it still doesn't mean he "likes" it. I'm accustomed to idiots who make turns on the road without using their turn signal, but I'd be happier if I never had to deal with it again.