Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[Terez]

This is the whole quote:

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

There's some paraphrasing when the recorder was off (and I don't doubt others might take on his role to some extent when the Dragon soul is turned). Then RJ said that the Dragon reborn will always be male.

This is a VERY good example of how easy it could be to misinterpret RJ when you don't have his exact words. One reporter might have come away from this with the idea that someone other than Rand could be the Dragon, but RJ is obviously saying 'someone other than Rand as in Lews Therin' rather than 'someone other than Rand as in Mat'. It's the same soul. If the reporter had missed that bit, then we'd have a very different idea of what RJ was saying here.

[yoniy0]

First, guys (particularly Nightstrike), please don't make a habit of posting twice in a row; it makes following the discussion harder.

 

Second, I agree that some reports are wanting. In this one in particular, you can't really trust that "yes". Still, my best guess as to what RJ was saying (and it might've been motivated by what you suggested, Terez) is that the Dragon is always male (we knew that already, souls don't change gender), but sometimes the role of the de facto leader of the Light forces (henceforth referred to as CoL) is played by another soul, a female one.

[coolpool]

I know this is an old response but explains really really well why it doesn't make sense if rand is the only CoL

 

Ok, I couldn't think of a good title and this may be better asked in the ask a simple question thread, but I was thinking of Robert Jordan's statement that in previous turnings of the Wheel the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, and when this happened the result was a draw. I'm trying to get my feeble brain around that. If the Light loses their Champion, how do they get away with a draw?

 

Please humour (and enlighten) me.

 

This has always bothered me too. It doesn't really make much sense to me. There seems to be only three potential outcomes: 1) The Champion of the Light wins, 2) The Champion of the Light loses. 3) The Champion of the Light turns to the shadow.

 

Now, in scenario 1 it is a win for the Light. Or depending on how you look at it...it's a draw since the DO is sealed and everything will repeat itself in the future. In scenario 2, we don't know what will happen really. But in scenario 3, RJ has stated that it ends in a draw. This seems fair, but the problem is that in the books we see that the Shadow clearly values turning the Dragon to their side far more than simply killing him. They have had plenty of opportunities to kill him, yet the Forsaken have helped him or purposely avoided killing him throughout the entire series.

 

Using the logic presented in the book, it seems obvious that turning the Champion of the Light to shadow is better than simply killing him. Yet, RJ's comments seem to imply that turning him to the shadow doesn't result in a win either. So the question is....how can the Shadow win if turning the Dragon doesn't let them win? If the Dark One simply has to break free and win the Last Battle to win then why didn't they kill Rand long ago? Why bother turning him? It really doesn't make sense at this point. Furthermore, it also doesn't make sense how throughout the series the Shadow has attempted to kill Rand plenty of times yet other times they are under orders not to harm him. As if they constantly just keep changing their minds. Even Ishamael tries to kill Rand with balefire at the end of TDR.

 

So the big question is...how can the Shadow win? If turning Rand is valued more than killing him then logic states that merely killing him will not allow the DO to win. Yet if turning Rand doesn't allow them to win either...it seems like a no win situation. And I really don't buy the whole "neither side can ever win" theory because if that is the case then the entire series of books is near meaningless. There is obviously some way for either side to win. Yet we have one book left and it is left completely ambiguous.

 

It doesn't make logical sense; it's a no win scenorio for the dark one if converting rand has always resulted in a draw. The way i see it making more sense is if there are multiple CoL and when the other CoL have been converted in the past it resulted in a draw but Rand hasn't been converted before as a CoL and thats why he is investting so many resorses into turning him instead of killing him because the dark one must have a better chance of winning with rand on his side rather than rand being dead otherwise the DO would have just killed him when the actual chance presented itsself..

[Nightstrike]

It doesn't make logical sense; it's a no win scenorio for the dark one if converting rand has always resulted in a draw. The way i see it making more sense is if there are multiple CoL and when the other CoL have been converted in the past it resulted in a draw but Rand hasn't been converted before as a CoL and thats why he is investting so many resorses into turning him instead of killing him because the dark one must have a better chance of winning with rand on his side rather than rand being dead otherwise the DO would have just killed him when the actual chance presented itsself..

But we don't know what is needed for the DO to win. If the Dragon soul is turned (13/13?), then maybe the other good guys can kill him, and seal up/undo the Bore? Or maybe it has worked some other way? Since we don't have the info on how any of it has been done in any turning, then it's impossible to tell much at all about all that.

[avernite]

I think this is a good point to add my pet crazy theory:

 

 

From VoG it appears that, essentially, the Dark One would be really happy if the leader of the light would want to destroy the world. In fact, he almost did. The struggle, in some sense, seemed more psychological than that the actual battle mattered

 

Second, Rand very specifically said he can't lead everything, can't be everywhere. Yet, in the Age of Legends the Dragon seems to have been the head general (as Demandred clearly is a general, and is the 'almost LTT')... which Rand has certainly not been except for a lousy attack towards Ebou Dar.

In fact, Mat would make more sense at this point as head general.

 

Finally, tvtropes calls the Dragon a support role for someone (the top villain). Sure, the Dragon in this tale is not the tradtional European dragon nor the villainy dragon... but:

How does this tie into the discussion? Well... suppose for a second that LTT was NOT the Champion, but the Mat/Egwene to someone else being Rand. Suppose also that the Champion in that age went over to the Shadow.

 

Could we class the end of the AoL as a draw? Sure, I would say so. The Dark One clearly did not win. The Light suffered utter devastation, half its channelers went mad for the next 3000 years, and the Third Age is a tale of failed attempts to restore civilization while the Blight went ever on. Parts of the world never restored even a semblance of civilization (Land of Madmen) or only did so in a cruel and some would say evil way (Seanchan). It staved off the Dark One, and so we would class it a win if winning and losing were the only options, but the rest suggests a draw if that is an option.

 

 

So then, the obvious:

 

Suppose Moridin/Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael was the actual Champion, with LTT being a supporter, an organiser of armies. And this Champion, this defender of good... he betrayed the Light, betrayed Hope, and forced the Light into a gruelling fight to the death against the Dark. In desperation, Lews Therin attacked the Bore, and succeeded to stave off defeat, but at a terrible price.

 

On comes the next age, where the Dragon Reborn IS the Champion. He has not gone over to the Shadow in the last age, he did not do it in this age, and perhaps the Dragon never has. And that is what stings. The Dark One and Moridin both failed because the Dragon could act when the Champion failed to protect the Light. An emergency shutdown if you will. But what if LTT had been turned? There would be noone left with the authority to act, not at the time when he did act in the end. And if Rand had been turned now?

Well, the Choedan Kal came close, and who can take over for him now? Egwene commands little respect as the Amyrlin of a previously divided Tower even if it still has influence, Perrin has allies only, Mat has skill but no outright loyalty from most countries, and Fortuona is hated by half the planet's governments.

 

In short, in the Age of Legends, there were prime thinkers, and among them was a Champion. There were prime rulers, and their leader was the Dragon. The Champion betrayed the Light, but the Dragon could still act. Now, there is nothing left, no failsafe... and so if the Dragon fails now, the world is lost, as there would be two betrayals in a row.

[coolpool]

It doesn't make logical sense; it's a no win scenorio for the dark one if converting rand has always resulted in a draw. The way i see it making more sense is if there are multiple CoL and when the other CoL have been converted in the past it resulted in a draw but Rand hasn't been converted before as a CoL and thats why he is investting so many resorses into turning him instead of killing him because the dark one must have a better chance of winning with rand on his side rather than rand being dead otherwise the DO would have just killed him when the actual chance presented itsself..

But we don't know what is needed for the DO to win. If the Dragon soul is turned (13/13?), then maybe the other good guys can kill him, and seal up/undo the Bore? Or maybe it has worked some other way? Since we don't have the info on how any of it has been done in any turning, then it's impossible to tell much at all about all that.

 

 

right this is just a thought but not fact but i think most of us WoT fans can agree that proper victory for the DO is either him fully escaping his prizon or have all the shadow forces eradicate the good, thus, allowing him to eventually escape unhindered...

 

 

and yeah thats possible with rands soul dying every single time hes gone over but seriously... that just seems unlikely and... be honast now.. if rand went over to the dark, do you really think there are people who could stand against him?? i mean he killed 100,000 trollocs easy without angreals in ToM and when he nearly did turn to the dark side he nearly destroyed creation in TGS!!! Like in the AoL the forsaken are some of the most powerful channelers, and did the combined forces of the aes sedai with LLT manage to kill them?? no they didn't so the same would go for rand aswell if he was a forsaken aswell. the light got luckly when LLT sealed up the bore with the forsaken.. but the war was losing, the forsaken and dark forces were winning.. If LLT went over in the AoL, then the dark forces would have wiped out the good and the DO would have escaped and would have won. In interest of exploriong the other point of view, If Rand went over on his free will maybe the forsaken would have killed him leading to a draw... but i think the DO would have prohibited this and they would realise that it is better to keep him alive until the light has lost, then plot to kill him cos thats what i would do (i know thats not a vaalid agument) and other power hungy people would do... you would see it that way too if you were in their possisions as LLT is an asset and would help the dark win meaning you win aswell, would kill something that would help you win?? it doesn't make sense to do that.... Also when rand nearly want over this time in VoG, he would have destroyed the world causing the DO to win under defalt as all the other players have effectively 'forfited' See... if rand/LLT went over in either age it would have resulted in the light losing.

 

now i have explained this before but the conclutions from this are (now i'm being fair and please include anyothers i have missed)..:

 

1.) rand is the only CoL and when he has gone over before he has been really unlucky and has caused draws..

2.) there are multiple CoL and rand is one of them but hasn't turned before..

3.) there are multiple CoL and rand is one of them but he has only turned a very few times before in comparison to other CoL and thats why the DO will take the risk and keep him alive to convert him rather than let him die

 

now the first one is valid untill you look at the actions in the WoT books. Firstly in the AoL and the 3rd age, if rand/LLT went over i think it is fair to assume that the dark would have a huge advantage and a draw would be unlikely (you can nit pick at this idea but again be honast, my assumtion is the mostly likely thing to be true, and im not ingoring the fact that it is an assumption.. as i am admiting the assumtion).. but this doesn' match up with the fact that RJ said the when the champion of the light has gone over before, it has resulted in a draw. Now are the 2nd age and esspecially the 3rd age just statistically improbabilities, that this was the very ever first time that the turning of the rands soul could have lead to the DO winning, not a draw, going agaist what has normally happens which is a draw????

 

Leaving that point up to you to deciede also consider that if rand is the only CoL and his turning in the past has always resulted in a draw, then why on earth would the DO want to convert him if in the past he always causes draws???? this leaves the scenario that the DO loses or he draws... but can never win. Why would the DO go for this option again if it normally ends up with a draw???? if rand is out of the picture then the DO would instantly have a better chance of winning. This is a fair and logical assumption... as no rand then the most powerful enemy is gone.. the one person who has killed most of his forsaken. If rand was killed then those forsaken would still be alive..

 

So y would the DO settle for a draw if killing rand would ultimatly be better and atleast leave the chance of winning still out there??

the logical reason is that the DO would have more of an advantage if rand was converted than rand being dead. But if rand causes draws then this gamble will not pay off for the dark one, it never has, so it would be better if he was dead. but rand hasn't been killed when he could have been killed indicating that the conversion of rand will be better than his death indicating that rand converted probally wont cause draws indicating that he hasnn't been converted in the past which means for there to be CoL convertions in the past like RJ said, there needs to be more than one CoL

 

now i know i have used a lot of assumtions but they are fair assumptions and the alternitive to these assumtions just wouldn't make much logical sense...

 

2.) i have answered this sort of already when arguing against 1.) and i have gone through this one a few times in previous posts and i just cant be bothered to do a huge write up so just read what i have already said about 2.) proofs in previous if you can be bothered like..

 

3.) now this could be just aslikey as 2.) and makes sense except that if we are agreeing that yes, there are multiple CoL, then two of RJ quotes were saying that the hero of the light has been converted in the past (Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.) and that you would be stupid to believe ishy when he told rand that rands soul had been converted in the past (Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!) which mean that rand has never been converted in the past meaning 3.) cant be true as it is contraditing what RJ said (tho again you could argue that RJ didn't really answer the question but that is just purposly ignoring that the meaning is clear for the sake of agruments sake..)

 

 

now yes there could be differnt interpritations that change the meaning and that i am making the assumtion the the DO will go for logical decisions.. that i canpredict the DO responses... but if you were all mighty and powerful and evil and had been trying to escape since the begining of time, then you would have a lot of experieince and so wouldn't make the same choices again and again when it is appant they don't work (i am refering to the DO still trying to convert rand if he is the only CoL, even though, if he is the only Col, it has resulted in draws)

 

again i must say... sorry for the bad spelling.. i cant spell... ive had to edit 4 times for really bad spelling and grammer lol and sorry if i confused anyone...

[Nightstrike]

right this is just a thought but not fact but i think most of us WoT fans can agree that proper victory for the DO is either him fully escaping his prizon or have all the shadow forces eradicate the good, thus, allowing him to eventually escape unhindered...

Yes, I agree.

 

and yeah thats possible with rands soul dying every single time hes gone over but seriously... that just seems unlikely and... be honast now..

I can't say whether that is needed or not (the Dragon dying). We've not been given that info.

 

if rand went over to the dark, do you really think there are people who could stand against him??

Yes, there are several who are almost as strong/Talented, and we don't know what he or them needs to do in order to undo the Bore.

 

1.) rand is the only CoL and when he has gone over before he has been really unlucky and has caused draws..

We don't know all the ways the Bore can be unmade. We haven't seen it happen once yet.

 

3.) now this could be just aslikey as 2.) and makes sense except that if we are agreeing that yes, there are multiple CoL, then two of RJ quotes were saying that the hero of the light has been converted in the past (Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.) and that you would be stupid to believe ishy when he told rand that rands soul had been converted in the past (Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!) which mean that rand has never been converted in the past meaning 3.) cant be true as it is contraditing what RJ said (tho again you could argue that RJ didn't really answer the question but that is just purposly ignoring that the meaning is clear for the sake of agruments sake..)

RJ said that Ishy told Rand the truth, so that's what I go by.

 

 

(Also, CoL is a fan phrasing so you could either be talking about what Ishy told Rand, or something else.)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i just had an odd thought.

 

has the light ever won?

 

if this is a game you have to win, or you're out for good. . . well, the dark one is still in, and the light is still in.

 

has it ever been anything but a draw?

[Nightstrike]

has the light ever won?

 

if this is a game you have to win, or you're out for good. . . well, the dark one is still in, and the light is still in.

 

has it ever been anything but a draw?

Maybe that's up to how you choose to define it?

 

This is what RJ said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

I don't know what would be the difference between a victory for the Light and a draw.

 

Would it be a victory if the Dragon soul isn't turned (and maybe even lives after the last battle)?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

it's a confusing quote. but logically it implies that there has never been a win by either side. it must have been an eternal draw. (the description of time as a wheel kind of supports that, as well.)

 

not a draw caused always, or even most of the time, by a defection to the dark. but not a clear cut win either way.

 

i'm not sure what a win for the light would look like.

[Nightstrike]

I have won again, Lews Therin

Degrees of victory - maybe for both sides?

 

(Maybe it was just "I have won again"?)

 

Scifi.com Chat 1 November 1998

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

plus the dark one's the father of lies, and seems to be pretty good at psychological warfare.

 

yeah, degree of victory might sum it up.

 

equilibrium periodically punctuated by imbalance.