Betrayed w/ a kiss

[Terez]

Rand's supposed to be the source of the legends. That means that theoretically the Jesus stories could be garbled misremembrances of Rand's story. That's not saying much, though, and it gives RJ a lot of freedom.

Chances are, not even Rand's contemporaries will know the whole story. His resurrection has to be presented as a one-time miracle or everyone would start asking for their loved ones to be brought back from the dead.

 

Agreed. I do think that the means of resurrection - ripping him from Tel'aran'rhiod - is pretty much a one-shot deal that can't be used for just anyone. I think Nynaeve will have to use Need to find him, and I think only the dire need of him will allow her to find him, and I don't think she needs to be silenced (like the fanfic) to keep the secret of how it's done. It can only be used for Heroes of the Horn, and only if there is actually a need for them to return (assuming that none of them would break the precepts for that purpose).

[vanceme]

 

 

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room.

 

Lol. I did that at the end of Stephen kings dark tower series. Hard. Heaven forbid I have to do the same with This series

[nojnomad]

Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:17 AM

 

graendalzooescapee, on 25 April 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

 

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room. I know there's the Nynaeve quote, but I hold out desperate hope that it's purely hyperbole.

 

 

I'm of the opinion that this has already happened.. in a way, in VoG.

 

Rand (as Darth Rand) goes from Tear, and eventually ends up on Dragonmount, where he has his epiphany. When he comes down from the mountain he is Rand Sedai. Darth Rand is dead and gone. The new reborn Rand Sedai is an entity we haven't seen before - a being in whom LTT and TR-Rand are united, with all the memories of both and then some. It's a rebirth rather than a resurrection such as was forced on Birgitte, though.

 

And he was away for three days (ToM p188).

 

Before he left Tear, Nynaeve asked him (on Caddy's instructions) where Perrin was, because Caddy needed to get Tam who was with Perrin at the time. Eventually Rand gave Nyn this info, because he had a debt to her for caring when he could not (TGS p 697). Tam was the key to Rand regaining his sanity. So in a subtle way, Nyn did have a hand in Rand's rebirth.

 

I agree totally with this assessment of Rand having died. It was a great pleasure/pain for me to be able to say that the "to live you must die" Finn prophecy was fulfilled. It is my humbly considered and correct position that this is exactly what happened. So many changes in personality (that would have come to him in a normal way with age and experience) showed up after his epiphany that it can only be due to the merging of the memories and the (at least in some sense) death of his current individual personality.

[Galad]

What about Alivia? Maybe not intentionally but there is the whole "help Rand die" viewing by Min...

 

Btw the Egewene trying to gentle Rand thing is ludicrous even by the crazed standards of the anti-Egwene crowd.

 

Why is this ludicrous? Considering they now have the ability to Heal severing, this is actually a fairly practical way to temporarily disable Rand. Not that I think Egwene is stupid enough to try it. :D

[Orderofolde]

Egwene or Mat, maybe both. If it happens, I don't think it will be an intentional betrayal; it could be something that seems harmless at the time but turns out to have dire consequences, much like the situation with Mat and Verin's letter.

 

"He's just worried about the dagger, Rand," Loial said.

"I know," Rand said. But how long before he tells somebody what I am, not even meaning to? He could not believe Mat would betray him on purpose; there was that much of their friendship left, at least.

[...]

When he tried to straighten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand's coat with both hands. "Rand, I'd never tell anyone about—about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that!" He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

"I do," Rand said. He wondered what lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. He must have told someone, or he wouldn't be so anxious about it. He could not hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one.

"Is that all there is for me?" she [Egwene] demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?"

What I find curious is that Egwene dreamed that she was the one to save Rand when he had been captured and was in the traitor's court about to be stilled and them she had a secret, "I have not taken the three oaths." Yet she insists on taking the oaths on the binding rod as soon as she could lay hands in it. Why, if she knew that only she could save rand?

[lordofsoup]

Bashere is not a Darkfriend. Rand would have seen it. They cant hide from him any longer. It seems like it has to be Egwene, she is still under the effects of compulsion from Aran'gar. She still irrationally believes that the Three oaths are what makes an Aes Sedai. She is against him in everything she does, even if she does not realize it. She dares to consider trying to stop him from breaking the seals. Even though she knows what happened last time when the dragon was not listened to, and the Breaking occurred. At least this time he has some female channelers sworn to him, and the Aiel and Sea Folk, some of whom will aid him.

[Graveyardhag]

... She dares to consider trying to stop him from breaking the seals.

Even though she knows what happened last time when the dragon was not listened to, and the Breaking occurred.

 

 

She "dares" as you put it, for very good reasons.

Also, does Egwene know what actually happened in the AOL? I was under the impression that she still believes that Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions were already mad when they tried to seal the DO back up. Also also, had saidar been used, it would also be tainted and we would not now be reading this story.

[nwash_10]

please add option "none". That would be my vote. I don't see anybody betraying Rand. Rand's character has many mythological parallels and Jesus is only a part of them. RJ even said so himself

How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Rand's and Jesus's stories have very few details in common. why do you think that this particular one will play out?

 

I think it's just the idea. In tons of stories does the main character get betrayed. Heck I can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

 

 

Lord of the Rings - Saruman

Jesus - Judas

Mists of Avalon - Lancelot

Gates of Fire (300 Spartans) - Can't remember the name

Inheritance Cycle - Murtagh

Harry Potter - Snape

Half of the Shakespear plays..

 

List goes on and on. Hasn't seem to happen yet in WoT so we can still speculate, but that's not saying that it is in fact going to happen.

 

Don´t know if you have finished all those books. If you haven´t I wont tell you wich one, but one of those characters never betrayd the good side.

 

 

Don´t know if someone will betray Rand. Maybe he will rescue Mierin and trust her and then she will betray him. It could be Bashere or Alanna. Don´t think Alanna is a DF but maybe she will manipulated by someone else to betray Rand?

 

 

I'm curious who exactly you are talking about. I think I know but would like to know for sure. If we're thinking of the same character then he does actually betray the good guys. It just happens very early on and we only see it through a flashback/memory.

[XXX]

Probably Egwene..and hopefully she gets her monkey ass balefired out of existence for it so that we can read atleast some part of the series without her annoying presence.