Perrin and Rands death

[Skeeve the Great]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

So you're saying hes been standing around for two years waiting for Rand to come to T'A'R. I doubt it. Yes, we saw Slayer had been ordered to kill Rand. But hes not been standing around waiting for just that, no way. I like to think Moridin has more productive plans for his tools.

 

First of all, I doubt he was ordered to kill Rand in TAR. The only time we see him trying to do that was in real world. And it was by command of some other Forsaken, not Moridin. I would imagine that Moridin cleared this out by now and recused the order.

 

Second, Slayer has very important task, besides being assasin for the Shadow. This task is to deplete wolves number as much as possible and help to create Darkhounds.

[Terez]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

So you're saying hes been standing around for two years waiting for Rand to come to T'A'R. I doubt it. Yes, we saw Slayer had been ordered to kill Rand. But hes not been standing around waiting for just that, no way. I like to think Moridin has more productive plans for his tools.

 

First of all, I doubt he was ordered to kill Rand in TAR. The only time we see him trying to do that was in real world. And it was by command of some other Forsaken, not Moridin.

Rand's not dead yet, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

His task with the Darkhounds is most likely secondary.

[Skeeve the Great]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

So you're saying hes been standing around for two years waiting for Rand to come to T'A'R. I doubt it. Yes, we saw Slayer had been ordered to kill Rand. But hes not been standing around waiting for just that, no way. I like to think Moridin has more productive plans for his tools.

 

First of all, I doubt he was ordered to kill Rand in TAR. The only time we see him trying to do that was in real world. And it was by command of some other Forsaken, not Moridin.

Rand's not dead yet, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

People argue that Slayer's mission is to kill Rand in TAR, yet the only time we see him doing it was in real world and under command of some other Forsaken. My point is that there is no single evidence about supposed Slayer's mission in TAR to kill Rand and/or any other Hero. On the other hand, we've seen plenty of other missions Slayer does - killing wolves (in my mind very important, because they ARE going to be in the Last Battle), trapping Perrin with the Dreamspike (which is secondary mission), doing some small assassination work in the real world (like killing Black Ajahs and such), etc.

 

I agree that some would argue that Slayer MAY have a mission about killing Rand in TAR and probably IS very capable of doing it, but really! How many times Rand was visiting perfectly known to anyone location in TAR already (I mean Tear, while Callandor was there)? Plenty, and no problems so far and no hints of his possible assassinations.

[Terez]

People argue that Slayer's mission is to kill Rand in TAR, yet the only time we see him doing it was in real world and under command of some other Forsaken.

1. Rand hardly ever goes to Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

2. Again, Rand isn't dead yet. There would be no purpose in killing him in Tel'aran'rhiod now as it wouldn't be the permanent death of the soul. We believe that Slayer is supposed to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod AFTER he dies. It helps to read the thread, but maybe a quote will help:

 

"None of them have seen you?" she asked anxiously. Birgitte was more vulnerable than herself in many ways, despite her knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod. She had never been able to channel; any of the Forsaken could destroy her as if crushing an ant, without breaking stride. And if she were destroyed here, there would be no rebirth for her ever again.

It's the same for the wolves who are dead in Tel'aran'rhiod, as we saw in TOM - Hopper demonstrated that first by stopping Perrin from killing the stag, and also by dying the permanent death himself in the end.

 

My point is that there is no single evidence about supposed Slayer's mission in TAR to kill Rand and/or any other Hero.

The evidence is the fact that Slayer and Rand are tied together in the Dark Prophecy, as was noted above. Rand's permanent death is mentioned - death beyond dying - and Slayer's purpose - to hunt - was also mentioned. There are other hints aside from that that this is Slayer's ultimate purpose, whether he is aware of it or not (seems unlikely). But Ishamael is the one who created him in the first place, presumably - he was free around that time, as we know from Alviarin - and Ishamael is the man with the prophecies. He knows things that no one else knows, even on Team Dark.

 

On the other hand, we've seen plenty of other missions Slayer does - killing wolves (in my mind very important, because they ARE going to be in the Last Battle)

Of course - they are going to aid Slayer in his task. Perrin's wolves against Slayer's Darkhounds. In Tel'aran'rhiod, of course.

[Finnssss22]

...or it could be Perrin saving Rand from Fain.

Perrin's enhanced senses and Hammer should be a very good match up for the little bastard.

It makes sense and would be true poetic justice for Perrin to be the one to kill Fain. If Bornhald comes clean about the deaths of Perrin's family in the first half of the book, that will be the set up for sure.

 

The issue I have with Perrin being needed to find and save him in TAR is that it's basically producing one theory based on another theory, that Rand will die and need to be "resurrected" from TAR in the first place.

 

Not that either are bad theories or anything, I'm just not buying it atm.

[Terez]

That's okay; it's not for sale anyway. ;)

[Skeeve the Great]

1. Rand hardly ever goes to Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

He did it a lot when Callandor was in Tear, but probably not anymore.

 

2. Again, Rand isn't dead yet. There would be no purpose in killing him in Tel'aran'rhiod now as it wouldn't be the permanent death of the soul. We believe that Slayer is supposed to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod AFTER he dies. It helps to read the thread,

 

I understood this argument from the beginning, don't worry. I simply disagree with it.

 

It's the same for the wolves who are dead in Tel'aran'rhiod, as we saw in TOM - Hopper demonstrated that first by stopping Perrin from killing the stag, and also by dying the permanent death himself in the end.

 

Thank you for pointing the obvious... Sheesh...

 

The evidence is the fact that Slayer and Rand are tied together in the Dark Prophecy, as was noted above. Rand's permanent death is mentioned - death beyond dying - and Slayer's purpose - to hunt - was also mentioned. There are other hints aside from that that this is Slayer's ultimate purpose, whether he is aware of it or not (seems unlikely). But Ishamael is the one who created him in the first place, presumably - he was free around that time, as we know from Alviarin - and Ishamael is the man with the prophecies. He knows things that no one else knows, even on Team Dark.

 

I see... Interesting interpretation of Dark Prophecy. I think it has some merits, and I guess we'll see how it plays out. Although I still don't think that it would be Slayer's role to hunt and battle Rand in TAR, assuming Rand will die at all.

 

Of course - they are going to aid Slayer in his task. Perrin's wolves against Slayer's Darkhounds. In Tel'aran'rhiod, of course.

In TAR? Weird... All Darkhounds packs we've seen so far were roaming in the real world. Are you saying they will appear in TAR?

[Negawonka]

I thought that darkhounds were made from wolves that were killed in the waking world - not in the world of dreams. Perhaps I misread it but if someone could find where it says that they are made in the world of dreams I would appreciate it.

 

As for slayer killing rand in the world of dreams so he can never be reborn . . . to that I have to flat out say it will never happen. Oh it might be attempted, but I would be surprised and even more surprised if it was at the DO/Moridin's orders. If the Dark One wanted the dragon to die the final death he would have given orders to the forsaken to do so the second they saw Rand in this age (or in any of the uncountable times that the dragon has stood as champion for the light). Keep in mind that if the Dark One were to kill the dragon permanently, he would never have the chance to corrupt him and that would pretty much be a permanent defeat for him.

[Terez]

2. Again, Rand isn't dead yet. There would be no purpose in killing him in Tel'aran'rhiod now as it wouldn't be the permanent death of the soul. We believe that Slayer is supposed to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod AFTER he dies. It helps to read the thread,

I understood this argument from the beginning, don't worry. I simply disagree with it.

There is nothing to agree with or disagree with in terms of the permanent death - your arguments were simply irrelevant to the theory that was put forth. But that's okay.

 

Of course - they are going to aid Slayer in his task. Perrin's wolves against Slayer's Darkhounds. In Tel'aran'rhiod, of course.

In TAR? Weird... All Darkhounds packs we've seen so far were roaming in the real world. Are you saying they will appear in TAR?

I'm saying he has to make them in Tel'aran'rhiod, for sure. The Darkhounds Rand fought in Rhuidean had reality-warping properties that are probably a result of them having been made in Tel'aran'rhiod. But what I'm saying is that the main purpose of the Darkhound pack is to assist Slayer in hunting and killing Rand permanently after his death. The main purpose of Perrin and the wolves will be to counter that so that Nynaeve can safely resurrect Rand. IMO it would be a little bit silly and anti-climatic if all they did was show up to kill Shadowspawn, especially when there are so many massively Shadowspawn-destroying weaves out there.

[Terez]

I thought that darkhounds were made from wolves that were killed in the waking world - not in the world of dreams. Perhaps I misread it but if someone could find where it says that they are made in the world of dreams I would appreciate it.

It's mentioned several times. Regular Darkhounds are made in the waking world, but what Slayer is doing is different - hence the unusually large pack and the T2 Darkhounds in Rhuidean.

 

The wind rose, and Perrin caught his smell faintly. A cold scent, that was the only way to describe it. Cold, and not really human. Suddenly his own bow was in his hand, an arrow nocked, and the weight of a filled quiver tugged at his belt.

 

The other man looked up, saw Perrin. For a heartbeat he hesitated, then turned and became a streak, slashing away across the hills.

 

Perrin leaped down to where he had stood, stared at what had occupied the fellow, and without thought pursued, leaving the half-skinned corpse of a wolf behind. A dead wolf in the wolf dream. It was unthinkable. What could kill a wolf here? Something evil.

 

...

 

"I've come awfully far afield from what I intended," Perrin muttered. He explained his need to find wolves in the Two Rivers, or the mountains above, explained about the ravens, and the Trollocs in the Ways.

 

When he was done, Hopper remained silent for a long time, his bushy tail held low and stiff. Finally... Avoid your old home, Young Bull. The image Perrin's mind called "home" was of the land marked by a wolfpack. There are no wolves there now. Those who were and did not flee are dead. Slayer walks the dream there.

 

For a moment he studied the faces of the man and woman on the bed, then pinched out the candle's flame and returned the candle to his pocket before stepping back into Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

...

 

It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.

 

 

As for slayer killing rand in the world of dreams so he can never be reborn . . . to that I have to flat out say it will never happen. Oh it might be attempted...

No one believes it will happen.

 

...but I would be surprised and even more surprised if it was at the DO/Moridin's orders. If the Dark One wanted the dragon to die the final death he would have given orders to the forsaken to do so the second they saw Rand in this age (or in any of the uncountable times that the dragon has stood as champion for the light).

There are several points at which the Shadow can win certain victories. The permanent death is not an option until after Rand dies. Also, I suspect that, even if Rand died in the beginning, that Slayer and the Darkhounds would not be able to find him in Tel'aran'rhiod. A Hero who doesn't want to be found, won't be. But when Nynaeve is searching for Rand, that's a moment of vulnerability where Slayer can slip in for the permanent kill.

 

Keep in mind that if the Dark One were to kill the dragon permanently, he would never have the chance to corrupt him and that would pretty much be a permanent defeat for him.

Hardly. If he destroys the Dragon soul, then he destroys the only mortal who can defeat him. That being said, RJ said there are many degrees of victory for the Dark One. His ultimate goal is to destroy the Pattern; his ultimate roadblock to this goal is the Dragon soul. Permanent destruction of that soul is optimal, but corruption works too.

[herid]

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,

one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now

course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Friends for sacrifice=Lan?

 

Friends is plural. It cannot refer to Lan only.

I didn't say that it did. I just think Lan is a good example, and with that in mind it puts a time-frame on the events in that stanza, where Rand has to choose between life eternal and death beyond dying. Of course, you might say that Dragonmount fulfilled that particular stanza. If he'd destroyed the Pattern, his death would have also been permanent.

I would consider this the most likely interpretation of this stanza as it speaks of a dramatic choice by Rand. I do find the idea of Slayer hunting Rand in TAR plausible but I wouldn't necessarily base it on this prophecy. Also, about about the part "He gives his friends for sacrifice." As you say, Lan fits well there but who else? Rand doesn't have many friends. Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Lan are about it, I would say. Who else can be considered Rand's friend? Maybe Rhuarc and Bashere? I think Bashere called Rand a friend once. I don't think we can put Min, Avi and Elayne in that category as they are lovers, not friends. Egwene is not a friend any longer, I would say. I really can't think of anybody else.

 

BTW, I wonder if this line is related to the mysterious comment by BS that there will be consequences to Rand's use of TP. LT said that TP is "death and betrayal". Perhaps it's betrayal of his friends in some way that is in store. of course, it's rather hard to see the new zen Rand ever doing something like that so it more likely to be death than betrayal.

[Terez]

Also, about about the part "He gives his friends for sacrifice." As you say, Lan fits well there but who else? Rand doesn't have many friends. Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Lan are about it, I would say. Who else can be considered Rand's friend?

The question is probably more relevant to the idea that it is fulfilled by Dragonmount than the idea that it will be fulfilled later (when more friends can easily be added to the sacrificing list).

[herid]

Also, about about the part "He gives his friends for sacrifice." As you say, Lan fits well there but who else? Rand doesn't have many friends. Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Lan are about it, I would say. Who else can be considered Rand's friend?

The question is probably more relevant to the idea that it is fulfilled by Dragonmount than the idea that it will be fulfilled later (when more friends can easily be added to the sacrificing list).

are you saying that the fact that he only offered one friend for sacrifice before the Dragonmount scene should mean that the choice of two roads in the prophecy means something else that happens later? I guess there is something in that...

 

I actually shortchanged Rand on the number of friends he has. Thom and Loial are his friends too. Possibly Moiraine can be considered his friend also. And he sort of sacrificed her once already.

[Terez]

Indeed, he did. You might say he sacrificed Mat when he sent him to Salidar, and sacrificed Perrin when he sent him after Masema. But that's a little less direct.

 

Moiraine is a little different simply because he didn't foresee her involvement. With Lan, he was pretty cold-blooded about it. Even in TOM, he still seems oblivious, doesn't he? I have to wonder if Moridin has anything to do with that.

[herid]

Indeed, he did. You might say he sacrificed Mat when he sent him to Salidar, and sacrificed Perrin when he sent him after Masema. But that's a little less direct.

 

Those are pretty iffy IMO. If we are willing to consider them then perhaps one can also include the Two Rivers. Rand abandoned them to Fain and Whitecloacks in TSR.

Moiraine is a little different simply because he didn't foresee her involvement.

True, but she certainly heads his list of women whose deaths he caused. He thinks that if could bring himslef to kill Lanfear Moiraine would not have to die. But yes, I agree, she is somewhat iffy.

With Lan, he was pretty cold-blooded about it. Even in TOM, he still seems oblivious, doesn't he? I have to wonder if Moridin has anything to do with that.

He did promise Nynaeve that he will get Lan some help. I expect he will do just that although there is not exactly a lot of screen time left for this to happen.

[Callern]

Nearly-invisible darkhounds? What ?

[Terez]

Invincible, not invisible.

 

One has to wonder what exactly prevented Rand from sending aid during that month after Dragonmount. If he was Egwene, he'd be crucified for that fact alone on the fan forums.

[OptimusPrime]

One has to wonder what exactly prevented Rand from sending aid during that month after Dragonmount. If he was Egwene, he'd be crucified for that fact alone on the fan forums.

 

Hahaha he deserves crucifying for worse things than not sending Lan aid.

[DPT24]

That we know of, neither Egwene nor Rand sent Lan help, but we have huge gaps in their timelines. I know at the end POV with Lan, he hadn't yet gotten any help, but I could see a situation similar to Rodel Iteralde where help comes at the last minute.

[Sleeper]

EDIT: Wrong post.