Rand and the TP

[yoniy0]

It's been suggested that Rand may use the TP (singly or in combination with saidin and saidar, courtesy of a Callandor-circle) to hold back the DO while he seals the Bore (by whatever means).

It has, but mostly by people who forget that the TP can't be used at Shayol Ghul, as per Moghedien's comment.

 

But.. Nyn has Healed insanity.. Naeff, ToM15.

She Healed the effects of the Taint, which isn't strictly the same as Healing the madness it caused. With the Taint gone, naturally the madness subsided as well. At least that's how I've heard it being explained.

[FarShainMael]

So, Naeff's insanity was Healed indirectly. Could Rand get round the problem in a similarly indirect fashion, perhaps by 'hiding' behind Moridin?

 

What I'd like to know is, does the person trying to use the TP get fried automatically, or because the DO gets angry and blasts the offender?

[Nightstrike]

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

[Terez]

That's about the One Power, not the True Power. Moghedien and RJ both said that channeling the True Power there would fry you instantly. I believe those were RJ's words from an early signing report (Pam Korda or Erica Sadun...can't remember which.)

[Nightstrike]

Yeah... Sorry.

[Nightstrike]

I've changed my vote twice already... So I've already voted for 3 options. Heh.

[FarShainMael]

Let's take a closer look at this.

 

The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder.

 

So it's a question of the amount of the TP present.

 

Regarding strength in the OP, this from the 13th Depository article on saidar strength ranking: Moghedien is ranked at 16, two levels weaker than Nynaeve. For men the saidin range goes a lot higher. And, of course, Rand is off the scale.

 

Does strength in the OP correspond to strength in the TP? If so, Rand just might be in with a chance..

[Terez]

Let's take a closer look at this.

 

The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder.

 

So it's a question of the amount of the TP present.

At the Bore, not in the channeler in question. Her strength has nothing to do with it.

[yoniy0]

At the Bore, not in the channeler in question. Her strength has nothing to do with it.

I think you're being too quick to judge. Frying to a cinder is what would happen, for example, if Siuan had tried using the CK post-Severing. Help me here, didn't the DF social in TGH prologue take place somewhere near Shayol Ghul? Ishamael seemed to be using the TP there.

[Terez]

I think in this case it has more to do with proximity. Assuming Ishamael was using the True Power (likely) then he was probably just somewhere nearby, rather than standing on the ledge overlooking the Bore itself.

[Terez]

More to the point, RJ didn't say it would fry you instantly unless you were strong enough. He just said it would fry you instantly. It could be that since Rand (theoretically) has a new sort of connection to saidin that he could pull it off, but it would seem strange for RJ to say that if there was going to be an important exception at the culmination of the series.

 

In TGH, Ishamael said they were 'in the shadow of Shayol Ghul'. In ACOS, Moghedien noticed the reality-warping effects, similar to Tel'aran'rhiod, 'somewhere close by Shayol Ghul'. Rand noticed those same effects when he visited Moridin in TGS, and he said it didn't have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod (which Moghedien confirmed). RJ said the 'True Power used AT Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly'. No exceptions.

[bsmnt23]

I voted #4. I think the DO and his minions have been trying to tempt Rand (and before the Breaking, lews Therin, too) with Power since Day One. Selfish aquisition of Power is probably the only human driving force the DO has the ability to understand. RJ has said that the DO doesnt think like a human, but the aquisition of Power is pretty easy to grasp. Didnt the DO say at some point that He/It intended the Dragon to be his champion? And I seem to recall somwhere that Ishi said the DO would sacrifice any and all of his Chosen to turn the DR to serve the DO? Giving your chosen intended champion a pre-approved access to the TP would grant all the Power anyone could dream of and we can see that much power kind of drove Rand batf*ck crazy for a while.

[Sharaman]

If you analyse Brandon's statement about Shaidar Haran having shielding influence only on those who swear to the Dark, the GLoD giving Rand permission to access TP doesn't make too much sense. It would be logical for the GLoD to allow Rand TP-access only if it meant that SH gained the ability to shield Rand.

So, the entire incident with Semirhage wasn't meant to play out with Rand gaining access to TP; Semirhage was actually meant to use the Domination Band effectively to control Rand. Even Moridin doesn't understand what's happening with the link and that implies the TP drawing was unintended.

[FarShainMael]

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder.

 

RJ said the 'True Power used AT Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly'. No exceptions.

 

He didn't mention any in that Q&A, no, but equally he didn't actually say anything like 'there are no exceptions', nor did he say why it would fry someone, or under what circumstances, proximity, strength, or w/e. Moghedien's PoV suggests a possible way in which it MIGHT be used at SG. And we are pretty sure it's going to be used, somewhere, somehow..

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

 There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

[Terez]

You cut the part of my post where I noted that it would be strange for RJ to say that if there were going to be a notable exception at the climax of the series. That's an important bit.

[Terez]

I voted #4. I think the DO and his minions have been trying to tempt Rand (and before the Breaking, lews Therin, too) with Power since Day One. Selfish aquisition of Power is probably the only human driving force the DO has the ability to understand. RJ has said that the DO doesnt think like a human, but the aquisition of Power is pretty easy to grasp. Didnt the DO say at some point that He/It intended the Dragon to be his champion? And I seem to recall somwhere that Ishi said the DO would sacrifice any and all of his Chosen to turn the DR to serve the DO? Giving your chosen intended champion a pre-approved access to the TP would grant all the Power anyone could dream of and we can see that much power kind of drove Rand batf*ck crazy for a while.

The reason why I didn't go for #4 is that I'm betting you have to go to Shayol Ghul in order to be given access to the True Power. It makes more sense IMO to assume that his access came through the link. That being said, I think it also makes sense to assume that Moridin and the Dark One have been planning how to best utilize that link to their advantage since Moridin realized what was going on.

[yoniy0]

More to the point, RJ didn't say it would fry you instantly unless you were strong enough. He just said it would fry you instantly. It could be that since Rand (theoretically) has a new sort of connection to saidin that he could pull it off, but it would seem strange for RJ to say that if there was going to be an important exception at the culmination of the series.

Yes, I agree, unless Rand won't be excepted simply for his newfound skill. For example, something like an access key might be required. Certainly, if that limitation is just a matter of measure rather than kind (as your second remark implies), such trickery should be possible.

[Terez]

To me, it doesn't matter about Rand's new skill. I don't think RJ would have said that if there was going to be an exception, no matter how justified in the plot. In other cases, he's said things like, 'not by any method we've seen yet', and when the method was finally introduced, the fans still bitched about it because he'd said it couldn't be done before.

[FarShainMael]

You cut the part of my post where I noted that it would be strange for RJ to say that if there were going to be a notable exception at the climax of the series. That's an important bit.

 

I left it out because it was your opinion (which you are of course entitled to hold) and I'm trying to stay in the area of first-hand info from the books and their author. Your opinion may well be valid, of course.

[Terez]

It's not any more opinion than any other argument you've put forward. For RJ to make a comment like that would be deceptive. When he wants to be deceptive, he uses Aes Sedai language. He doesn't just lie. There have been a few glitches over the years, but I don't see any reason to assume that this is a glitch.

[FarShainMael]

Everything I put forward is an opinion of mine. I just try not to base my opinions on other people's opinions, but on what is in the books and on what RJ/BS have actually said.

[Terez]

Which is, of course, exactly what we are talking about. What RJ said. If you're going to make an argument, you can't just ignore what he said or write it off because it doesn't support your theory.

[Terrel88]

Gotta go with #3. Seems pretty clear he seized the TP through his link with Moridin which has been growing stronger and stronger. Also highly doubtful you can channel the TP without the DO's permission, however, I feel the DO planned things so Rand and Moridin are linked, i.e so Rand goes Darth Rand and channels TP. So Jesus Rand may still be able to tap the TP via his link with Moridin, but I guess it's a RAFO. Neat poll

[Lupy]

I went with number 4 because I suspect that the DO would welcome Rand's use of the TP at any time. Post-VoG Rand doesn't even sense the TP though, like he did during TGS. Perhaps the light Nynaeve saw when she tried to heal his madness is preventing him from using the TP, and the darkness is a mix of taint and TP.

 

Are the taint and the True Power ever mentioned as being linked?

[herid]

I went with number 4 because I suspect that the DO would welcome Rand's use of the TP at any time. Post-VoG Rand doesn't even sense the TP though, like he did during TGS.

the new Rand still seems to sense TP. when he is in Far Madding he mentions that the Far Madding ter'angreal shields only against OP but not TP. The only way he would know that if he could still sense TP as the Far Madding ter'angreal was built after LT's time.

Perhaps the light Nynaeve saw when she tried to heal his madness is preventing him from using the TP, and the darkness is a mix of taint and TP.

Are the taint and the True Power ever mentioned as being linked?

I don't think they are ever conclusively linked although it's quite reasonable to assume that they are. However, BS said on twitter that TP and the taint are not the same.