Discuss the Inclusion of a Gay Character

[mb]

Just read the article.

How I interpret it is that the gay not being evil would be in his own books/series; not necessarily books/series he is asked to finish.

[Terez]

You interpret it wrong, then.

[Hael Me]

I'm all for it! Let's venture into the head of a gay character. I'm not afraid - on the contrary. It'll make the world of WoT an even richer and more realistic place.

 

I bet it's an Asha'man. If we exclude Rand himself - who's the first Asha'man - we haven't seen through the eyes of an Asha'man (with the exception of a brief glimpse through Eben Hopwil's eyes, just before he was killed by a bisexual woman [on the surface, at least] who used to be a super straight male who spent 3000 years in prison and then immediately upon his release sexually assaulted a young woman and was recycled by a living plant). So it would be logical if the gay character turned out to be one trained in The Black Tower - and I remind you, the lesbian characters we have seen have often been Aes Sedai. The Guardians will balance the Servants!

 

It would be cool if it was a powerful, popular and rather major character and not some random Soldier. Narishma perhaps?!

[Kal11]

If the argument for inclusion of a gay character is based on realism and world building it would be ridiculous for every culture to have the same views on the matter. In male dominated or military oriented cultures it is something that is generally frowned upon or even reviled

 

I didn't say every culture should have the same views. I was just pointing out that it's extremely silly to assume that any country that's "manly" would of course despise open gays. As for the bolded text, you really should read some history. Military oriented cultures have in the past deliberately encouraged male/male relationships, with the intent that they will fight harder to protect their lovers in the front lines. Just because it's currently "macho" to "frown upon" and "revile" gay men does not make it a constant across universes that manly = straight and soft/feminine = gay. And this is one reason why it's important to get visibility on the existence of gay people of many different personality types -- there are so many ignorant assumptions that are still constantly made based solely on the current cultural milieu.

 

 

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that cultures such as Borderlanders with very strict cultural and social views on matters such as gender and class roles and what constitutes proper behavior would find homosexuality unacceptable or distasteful. Unless homosexual behavior is inculcated into a group through learned behavior it is a very small segment of a population. To think said groups would think nothing of unusual sexual behavior in spite of a very unified and indoctrinated identity and way of life is naive.

 

 

I also never said anything about gay archetypes, only about cultures accepting it. You are the one that seems to be making a lot of assumptions. I live in an area with a very large gay population and my wife's profession (ASL translator) has more gay than straight men in it (why I have absolutely no clue). I know far more gay people than the average person, you are not educating me on anything.

[Terez]

The way Brandon said it - that there was a gay man in TOM - makes me doubt it was a previously-established character. The way he sort of covered his tracks by refusing to say one way or another whether it was an established character makes me suspect Androl even more than I did before (since he was introduced earlier in the series, but not developed as a character).

[Grig]

To think said groups would think nothing of unusual sexual behavior in spite of a very unified and indoctrinated identity and way of life is naive.

 

Unified and indoctrinated in what way? Seriously, I hate continuously going back to it, but Jordan stated that there was no stigma re: gay people in Randland. While it may be more or less celebrated in certain areas, to call out certain areas as places where gay people require closeting to shelter them from societal mores would be in direct contradiction to that statement.

 

tl;dr IT'S NOT UNUSUAL, per Jordan.

 

I also never said anything about gay archetypes, only about cultures accepting it.

 

Yet oddly enough, the cultures you call out as out-of-bounds line up with "warrior" cultures. One is always suspicious when someone's assumptions on what is acceptable or likely to happen in a fantasy setting "just so happen" to line up with ignorant application of pop culture archetypes (especially when one of them is polygamist, ffs, making the obvious implied issue not "class roles" but "militarism", which is just silly as I previously noted).

 

I know far more gay people than the average person, you are not educating me on anything.

 

Great. Now how does your extensive experience with gay people make you more of a professional on what is likely in a world that has been claimed to be free of sexual orientation stigmas? The world you know has no bearing on whether a particular fantasy culture with a very divergent historical route would behave in a certain way towards those of differing sexualities.

[Kal11]

Unified and indoctrinated in what way?

 

You are being intentionally oblivious on that one.

 

Seriously, I hate continuously going back to it, but Jordan stated that there was no stigma re: gay people in Randland. While it may be more or less celebrated in certain areas, to call out certain areas as places where gay people require closeting to shelter them from societal mores would be in direct contradiction to that statement.

 

tl;dr IT'S NOT UNUSUAL, per Jordan.

 

I already pointed out you were wrong. He did not say they don't exist, just that they were uncommon. Unless for the most part means something else in your world.

 

Yet oddly enough, the cultures you call out as out-of-bounds line up with "warrior" cultures. One is always suspicious when someone's assumptions on what is acceptable or likely to happen in a fantasy setting "just so happen" to line up with ignorant application of pop culture archetypes (especially when one of them is polygamist, ffs, making the obvious implied issue not "class roles" but "militarism", which is just silly as I previously noted).

 

More suspicious is when someone gets hostile and self-righteous because of someone else's opinion not being in lockstep with their's. Clearly you have an agenda on the issue and it is a waste of my time to try and have a conversation with you.

 

Great. Now how does your extensive experience with gay people make you more of a professional on what is likely in a world that has been claimed to be free of sexual orientation stigmas? The world you know has no bearing on whether a particular fantasy culture with a very divergent historical route would behave in a certain way towards those of differing sexualities.

 

My point was I don't need your lecturing, "education" or assumptions about what I believe. I find your belief that everyone needs to believes exactly like you to be quite offensive.

[Elend]

The only way I see myself having an issue with it is if the character is openly gay in a culture like the Borderlands or Aiel and everyone is just accepting of it.

 

Uh, why? Word of God says that in the WoTverse, homosexuality is accepted and unremarkable. He didn't say that only applied in the soft, feminine countries like Andor.

 

 

If the argument for inclusion of a gay character is based on realism and world building it would be ridiculous for every culture to have the same views on the matter. In male dominated or military oriented cultures it is something that is generally frowned upon or even reviled. Asking people to believe that the Borderlanders or Aiel with their sensibilities, values and traditions would be cool with homosexuality is straight jumping the shark.

 

So, never heard of the Sacred Band of Thebes I take it? Homosexuality is not always frowned upon when it comes to a militaristic group or society.

[Kal11]

The only way I see myself having an issue with it is if the character is openly gay in a culture like the Borderlands or Aiel and everyone is just accepting of it.

 

Uh, why? Word of God says that in the WoTverse, homosexuality is accepted and unremarkable. He didn't say that only applied in the soft, feminine countries like Andor.

 

 

If the argument for inclusion of a gay character is based on realism and world building it would be ridiculous for every culture to have the same views on the matter. In male dominated or military oriented cultures it is something that is generally frowned upon or even reviled. Asking people to believe that the Borderlanders or Aiel with their sensibilities, values and traditions would be cool with homosexuality is straight jumping the shark.

 

So, never heard of the Sacred Band of Thebes I take it? Homosexuality is not always frowned upon when it comes to a militaristic group or society.

 

I never said never. For any example of it being acceptable I can find many more examples of it not. In the case of the two cultures I listed and what their known culture and beliefs involve I just find it highly unlikely they would be open minded on the matter. Borderlanders and Aiel both have very distinct norms that are nearly universally followed by it's members, those who behave differently are outcasts. To think that unusual sexual behavior would just be ignored or taken as matter of course stretches plausibility for me personally.

[Grig]

I already pointed out you were wrong.

 

There is a difference between uncommon and unaccepted or shunned, which you're completely ignoring. Don't get too full of your debate skills.

 

I find your belief that everyone needs to believes exactly like you to be quite offensive.

 

You're creating this out of whole cloth. I point out that you say something stupid and that translates for a need for intellectual conformity? Continue to dodge the issue if you want, there's not much more for me to say.

 

For any example of it being acceptable I can find many more examples of it not.

 

Yes, and for every example of it not I can point out the existence of a homosexual stigma, which Jordan explicitly denied in his world. Nice non-argument.

 

Borderlanders and Aiel both have very distinct norms that are nearly universally followed by it's members, those who behave differently are outcasts

 

Are you implying that homosexuality is against ji'e'toh? Sister-wives would probably disagree, seeing as they consider themselves wed to each other as much as to their man. And choosing a society that gives women the socially-acceptable option to forego child-bearing and instead be warriors probably isn't your best example of one that would shun those who choose not to procreate. As for Borderlanders, their kick is protecting women. Are homosexual males likely to go around randomly attacking women? If not, no current Borderlander characterization would lead one to assume they would be outcasts.

[mb]

You interpret it wrong, then.

The article was kind of vague. Unless Sanderson explicitly tells, the "correct" interpretation would be anybody's guess.

[Kal11]

There is a difference between uncommon and unaccepted or shunned, which you're completely ignoring. Don't get too full of your debate skills.

 

Truth be told he didn't elaborate at all about the exceptions and left it in the air. You are the one ignoring what he actually said and implying there is zero sexual stigma (which there is in other cases besides sexual orientation)in WoT whatsoever. Regardless of how he felt do you think he would say otherwise? Turning off readers by saying controversial things doesn't sell books. Don't get too full of your ability to put together a coherent thought.

 

You're creating this out of whole cloth. I point out that you say something stupid and that translates for a need for intellectual conformity? Continue to dodge the issue if you want, there's not much more for me to say.

 

You are the one that made a bunch of assumptions then said we all need to be educated about gay personalities blah blah. If you weren't implying that everyone should be as "enlightened" as you are then what was your point? Thank the Creator you are not the judge of stupidity.

 

Personally I don't care about someone's view on the subject one way or the other. I respect a person's right to feel how they want on the matter and don't feel the need to beat them over the head with my point of view. I can actually have a calm conversation on the matter without flying into an idignant rage and slinging insults.

 

Yes, and for every example of it not I can point out the existence of a homosexual stigma, which Jordan explicitly denied in his world. Nice non-argument.

 

Speaking of non-arguments go read his quote again. You and others are taking a fairly vague answer and are extrapolating a lot out of it.

 

Are you implying that homosexuality is against ji'e'toh? Sister-wives would probably disagree, seeing as they consider themselves wed to each other as much as to their man. And choosing a society that gives women the socially-acceptable option to forego child-bearing and instead be warriors probably isn't your best example of one that would shun those who choose not to procreate. As for Borderlanders, their kick is protecting women. Are homosexual males likely to go around randomly attacking women? If not, no current Borderlander characterization would lead one to assume they would be outcasts.

 

The problem with your entire argument is that you act as if sexual behavior (of any kind, not just homosexual) has no stigmas or mores whatsoever and treat it like making a sandwich. To be honest I don't think RJ gave a damn about homosexuality and it had nothing to do with the narrative of his story.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i wish he'd include a character who could demonstrate the proper way to wash wool, because i've been on tenterhooks since i began my laundry education with silk.

 

i'm completely certain that the ability to properly launder moridin's and rand's fine garments, as well as nynaeve's woolens, will be the key to ending tarmon gaidon successfully.

 

and frankly, siuan's no laundress.

[capuga]

The only way I see myself having an issue with it is if the character is openly gay in a culture like the Borderlands or Aiel and everyone is just accepting of it.

 

Uh, why? Word of God says that in the WoTverse, homosexuality is accepted and unremarkable. He didn't say that only applied in the soft, feminine countries like Andor.

 

 

If the argument for inclusion of a gay character is based on realism and world building it would be ridiculous for every culture to have the same views on the matter. In male dominated or military oriented cultures it is something that is generally frowned upon or even reviled. Asking people to believe that the Borderlanders or Aiel with their sensibilities, values and traditions would be cool with homosexuality is straight jumping the shark.

 

So, never heard of the Sacred Band of Thebes I take it? Homosexuality is not always frowned upon when it comes to a militaristic group or society.

 

I never said never. For any example of it being acceptable I can find many more examples of it not. In the case of the two cultures I listed and what their known culture and beliefs involve I just find it highly unlikely they would be open minded on the matter. Borderlanders and Aiel both have very distinct norms that are nearly universally followed by it's members, those who behave differently are outcasts. To think that unusual sexual behavior would just be ignored or taken as matter of course stretches plausibility for me personally.

 

You're assuming that they would view it as unusual or abnormal. The Aiel are open-minded enough for polygamy. There is no reason to believe that this would not conform to their norms. Militaristic doesn't necessarily mean hetero. In the Aiel's case, they don't even have strict gender roles as the woman are just as likely to be warriors as housewifes.

[SethBaker]

The Sacred Band of Thebes is far from the only example. Every Hellenic Greek city-state that I'm aware of had some form of homosexuality commonly within the ranks. It was extremely common in Lakedaemon (Sparta). Alexander himself had a male lover that he took with him on his conquest of Persia and India. The Japanese samurai practiced homosexual sex prior to battle, believing it would bring them strength.

 

I'm hard-pressed to think of any non-Christian militaristic society where homosexuality was not accepted, or even encouraged. It is not machismo or warrior societies that oppose homosexuality, historically, it's judgmental people who believe they are Christians (they're wrong. They're not Christians).

 

I see no society that would be opposed to homosexuality in the Wheel of Time.

[dobraine]

i wish he'd include a character who could demonstrate the proper way to wash wool, because i've been on tenterhooks since i began my laundry education with silk.

I was always taught to hand wash with shampoo.

Air dry at room temperature. (Put over something if you are worried about shrinking.)

 

P.S The shampoo is so that it won't take away the natural oils or damage the hair. (I think...)

[Nightstrike]

2-13 percent are homosexual. Up to 20 percent are bisexual.

[Grig]

Luckers: Your thoughtful, detailed post went away because you chose to tell someone they were blathering on. Heavily. Moderated. Thread.

[Luckers]

This thread was shut because he chose to tell someone they were blathering on. Terrible, isn't it. It's like a police state in here or something.

 

In the mean time I'm sick of the number of complaints about this thread. Totes makes me the police. How fracking depressing.

 

This thread is done. This line of conversation is off limits for the next month. At least.

 

Cheers. Luckers.