Birgitte's arrow

[herid]

This was briefly mentioned in the BUT thread but I haven't seen it discussed much otherwise. What are the thoughts on how Birgitte's arrow made it out of TAR when Moggy pushed Birgitte out? Can this be done with other inanimate objects? that would make it easy to produce all kinds of stuff so it would seem unlikely to me.

The only idea I have is that Birgitte's bow and arrows might be somehow special, tied to the pattern along with Birgitte herself, perhaps. When Birgitte disappears from TAR her clothes fade and disappear but the bow and the arrows remain

 

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

-FoH, Ch 34

 

BTW, the fact that Nynaeve and Elayne never bothered to asked Moggy about the whole episode while they had her captive can only be plot induced stupidity as it's just too dumb otherwise.

[Sharaman]

This was briefly mentioned in the BUT thread but I haven't seen it discussed much otherwise. What are the thoughts on how Birgitte's arrow made it out of TAR when Moggy pushed Birgitte out? Can this be done with other inanimate objects? that would make it easy to produce all kinds of stuff so it would seem unlikely to me.

The only idea I have is that Birgitte's bow and arrows might be somehow special, tied to the pattern along with Birgitte herself, perhaps. When Birgitte disappears from TAR her clothes fade and disappear but the bow and the arrows remain

 

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

-FoH, Ch 34

 

BTW, the fact that Nynaeve and Elayne never bothered to asked Moggy about the whole episode while they had her captive can only be plot induced stupidity as it's just too dumb otherwise.

 

Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve asked Moggy for a lot of stuff that was never mentioned onscreen. They may know what she did to Brigitte.

[herid]

This was briefly mentioned in the BUT thread but I haven't seen it discussed much otherwise. What are the thoughts on how Birgitte's arrow made it out of TAR when Moggy pushed Birgitte out? Can this be done with other inanimate objects? that would make it easy to produce all kinds of stuff so it would seem unlikely to me.

The only idea I have is that Birgitte's bow and arrows might be somehow special, tied to the pattern along with Birgitte herself, perhaps. When Birgitte disappears from TAR her clothes fade and disappear but the bow and the arrows remain

 

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

-FoH, Ch 34

 

BTW, the fact that Nynaeve and Elayne never bothered to asked Moggy about the whole episode while they had her captive can only be plot induced stupidity as it's just too dumb otherwise.

 

Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve asked Moggy for a lot of stuff that was never mentioned onscreen. They may know what she did to Brigitte.

perhaps, but I consider it unlikely in this case. It's too important a topic to be left completely off-screen. They do question her about all the other things she did in front of them such as compulsion and that's mentioned explicitly. But either way I do believe that Nynaeve would be able to reproduce the weaves Moggy used if pressed to it. It's mentioned several times that she only needs to see something done once to learn the weaves.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think the bow and arrows are so closely entwined with her soul and her heroism. . . of the horn. . . that they are part of her. much more than clothes or anything else could be. so they came hrough as solidly as she did.

[Sharaman]

About Nyn visavis Moggy she only saw a glow of saidar increasing, she didn't see any weaves at all - they may have been inverted (unlikely given Moggy's stress and pain). Since Nyn was shielded and this is before her block was broken so, ---

 

A thought here about HotH and appearances. They exist in TAR in-between incarnations. Presumably while there, they can look like what they please.

Brigitte is thrown out as an early-30s woman, which is what she looked like in TAR. LTT looks in middle-age, gray-haired and that's what Rahvin almost changes him into. Hawkwing is elderly, etc.

If others were thrown out,

would they appear as their own self-image?

as whatever they last looked like in TAR if that's not their normal self-image?

as whatever they looked like, when they died in the last incarnation?

If Rand is killed, packed into TAR as a HotH and thrown out again via Nyn or somebody else's agency, what will he look like?

[herid]

i think the bow and arrows are so closely entwined with her soul and her heroism. . . of the horn. . . that they are part of her. much more than clothes or anything else could be. so they came hrough as solidly as she did.

 

That's pretty much what I suggested in my first post. I was wondering if anybody had other ideas.

About Nyn visavis Moggy she only saw a glow of saidar increasing, she didn't see any weaves at all - they may have been inverted (unlikely given Moggy's stress and pain). Since Nyn was shielded and this is before her block was broken so, ---

Nyn was very angry at the time (that's mentioned in the scene) and she could see the glow of saidar around Moggy.

 

Desperately Nynaeve reached for saidar. Fear streaked through her anger, but there was anger enough—and it ran into an invisible wall between her and the warm glow of the True Source. ...

 

Moghedien moved to where Nynaeve could see her, between the quivering triangle of her arms. The glow of saidar surrounded the woman mockingly....

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

 

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

 

that means that Moggy didn't bother inverting the weaves and Nyn could see what she was doing.

 

 

 

A thought here about HotH and appearances. They exist in TAR in-between incarnations. Presumably while there, they can look like what they please.

Brigitte is thrown out as an early-30s woman, which is what she looked like in TAR. LTT looks in middle-age, gray-haired and that's what Rahvin almost changes him into. Hawkwing is elderly, etc.

If others were thrown out,

would they appear as their own self-image?

as whatever they last looked like in TAR if that's not their normal self-image?

as whatever they looked like, when they died in the last incarnation?

If Rand is killed, packed into TAR as a HotH and thrown out again via Nyn or somebody else's agency, what will he look like?

Those are good questions. The fact that Rand recognized Hawkwing when he saw him at Falme suggests that perhaps he looked as his last incarnation and Rand may have recognized him from existing descriptions.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i was agreeing, sorry. if something's that clear, i don't think you have to look further. the heroes don't show up unarmed.

[Sharaman]

About Nyn visavis Moggy she only saw a glow of saidar increasing, she didn't see any weaves at all - they may have been inverted (unlikely given Moggy's stress and pain). Since Nyn was shielded and this is before her block was broken so, ---

Nyn was very angry at the time (that's mentioned in the scene) and she could see the glow of saidar around Moggy.

 

Desperately Nynaeve reached for saidar. Fear streaked through her anger, but there was anger enough—and it ran into an invisible wall between her and the warm glow of the True Source. ...

 

Moghedien moved to where Nynaeve could see her, between the quivering triangle of her arms. The glow of saidar surrounded the woman mockingly....

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

 

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

 

that means that Moggy didn't bother inverting the weaves and Nyn could see what she was doing.

 

 

We don't explicitly know if Nyn saw weaves. All that Nyn PoV tells us is that she saw the glow increasing, which means Moggy is pulling more OP.

Moggy could still be inverting her weaves. At any rate, weaves are not mentioned.

[herid]

 

 

We don't explicitly know if Nyn saw weaves. All that Nyn PoV tells us is that she saw the glow increasing, which means Moggy is pulling more OP.

Moggy could still be inverting her weaves. At any rate, weaves are not mentioned.

sorry, you are quite right. the weaves themselves are never mentioned so it's possible that they were inverted. But it's pretty unlikely IMO. Moggy had an arrow through her middle at the time and she was definitely preoccupied with other matters, but yes, her inverting the weaves can not be ruled out.

[mb]

Not sure, but Birgitte's bow & arrows in the main world might have been Power-wrought; and/or perhaps Telaranrhiod's version of them.

If so, that might be one explanation of why they also came.

[herid]

Not sure, but Birgitte's bow & arrows in the main world might have been Power-wrought; and/or perhaps Telaranrhiod's version of them.

If so, that might be one explanation of why they also came.

could you explain this again, please? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. are you saying that her bow and arrows in TAR were TAR reflections of an actual bow and arrows that existed somewhere else in real world (and might be power wrought)?

[mb]

Not sure, but Birgitte's bow & arrows in the main world might have been Power-wrought; and/or perhaps Telaranrhiod's version of them.

If so, that might be one explanation of why they also came.

could you explain this again, please? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. are you saying that her bow and arrows in TAR were TAR reflections of an actual bow and arrows that existed somewhere else in real world (and might be power wrought)?

Main world, I was mainly referring to the ones she had when spun out. Telaranrhiod's I guess were like copies/reflections of those.

[herid]

Not sure, but Birgitte's bow & arrows in the main world might have been Power-wrought; and/or perhaps Telaranrhiod's version of them.

If so, that might be one explanation of why they also came.

could you explain this again, please? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. are you saying that her bow and arrows in TAR were TAR reflections of an actual bow and arrows that existed somewhere else in real world (and might be power wrought)?

Main world, I was mainly referring to the ones she had when spun out. Telaranrhiod's I guess were like copies/reflections of those.

this might be the case but if so it could lead to some strange situations. presumably it would mean that one can do this with a TAR reflection of any real object, right? push it out of TAR the same way as Birgitte's arrow was pushed out and create two copies of the same object in real world. this strikes me as unlikely.

[mb]

The effects of nature might have destroyed the real world version long ago.

Or perhaps destroyed/damaged in battle. Maybe a combination of both.

[herid]

The effects of nature might have destroyed the real world version long ago.

Or perhaps destroyed/damaged in battle. Maybe a combination of both.

I was talking about the general principle of what made it possible for Birgitte's arrow to be pushed out of TAR into the real world. If we assume that the reason was that it was a reflection of an actual object that leads to some very strange possibilities of making any number of copies of the same object (not necessarily related to Birgitte in any way) in real world by repeating the process. I'd like to think that it was more restrictive than that.

[mb]

The reason I first speculated was the bow & arrows being Power-wrought.

 

An additional/alternative reason might be that Birgitte was using them shortly before her disappearance.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I always wondered if we'd see that one silver arrow again, from when Birgitte was ripped out of TAR...Maybe with some sort of significance, like that's how Moghedien will be aced, via the same silver arrow, fired or otherwise, maybe even stabbed in the back for a more visceral scene?

 

 

Yeah..? Naaahh?

[Bluedust9]

I always wondered if we'd see that one silver arrow again, from when Birgitte was ripped out of TAR...Maybe with some sort of significance, like that's how Moghedien will be aced, via the same silver arrow, fired or otherwise, maybe even stabbed in the back for a more visceral scene?

 

 

Yeah..? Naaahh?

 

That'd be pretty hot, definitely.

[yoniy0]

Didn't Elayne use the silver in that arrow to make Moghedien's a'dam?

[Mats Spare Hat]

Didn't Elayne use the silver in that arrow to make Moghedien's a'dam?

 

 

Gaahh, you're right on that. Nuts! Oh well...

[jemron]

I always wondered if we'd see that one silver arrow again, from when Birgitte was ripped out of TAR...Maybe with some sort of significance, like that's how Moghedien will be aced, via the same silver arrow, fired or otherwise, maybe even stabbed in the back for a more visceral scene?

 

 

Yeah..? Naaahh?

 

That'd be pretty hot, definitely.

 

I was just about to write this same thing, but I forgot the a'dam was created from the same arrow. Ah well.

 

Still, I totally agree that it is complete stupidity and/or RJ must've just forgot of its significance after Moggy was captured. That should've been one of the first things that they asked her! I guess it could be argued that she couldn't teach them T'A'R related stuff unless they forced her into T'A'R for teaching, which they had little/no time to do; but still. They should've asked.

[herid]

I always wondered if we'd see that one silver arrow again, from when Birgitte was ripped out of TAR...Maybe with some sort of significance, like that's how Moghedien will be aced, via the same silver arrow, fired or otherwise, maybe even stabbed in the back for a more visceral scene?

 

 

Yeah..? Naaahh?

 

That'd be pretty hot, definitely.

 

I was just about to write this same thing, but I forgot the a'dam was created from the same arrow. Ah well.

 

Still, I totally agree that it is complete stupidity and/or RJ must've just forgot of its significance after Moggy was captured. That should've been one of the first things that they asked her! I guess it could be argued that she couldn't teach them T'A'R related stuff unless they forced her into T'A'R for teaching, which they had little/no time to do; but still. They should've asked.

It's actually not clear to me if one can enter TAR while wearing an a'dam. Has this been discussed? I would think it should be possible for a dreamwalker - Egwene did it while she was shielded in TDR but Moggy never seemed to try. I imagine she could have done some mischief there if she were able to enter TAR while wearing an a'dam. Nothing like this is ever mentioned so either she could not or she did not try (which would be pretty strange).

 

 

The reason I first speculated was the bow & arrows being Power-wrought.

 

An additional reason might be that Birgitte was using them shortly before her disappearance.

the arrows and bows being TAR reflections of real objects even power wrought ones still does not preclude the possibility of repeatedly doing the same thing to TAr reflections of other power wrought objects. That's why I favor the idea that the bow and the arrows were tied to Birgitte as the Hero of the Horn and in a way were like real objects taken into TAR via a gateway.

[mb]

Her Telaranrhiod clothes might also be "tied" to her.

[herid]

Her Telaranrhiod clothes might also be "tied" to her.

that's why I gave the quote in my first post. he clothes melted when she was pushed out of TAR but her bow and the rest of her arrows did not. that indicates that the bow and the arrows are special but the clothes aren't.

[mb]

Her Telaranrhiod clothes might also be "tied" to her.

that's why I gave the quote in my first post. he clothes melted when she was pushed out of TAR but her bow and the rest of her arrows did not. that indicates that the bow and the arrows are special but the clothes aren't.

bow/arrows & clothes to me would have equal significance; neither being any more "special" than the other. Though probably different kinds of "special".

 

My reason for my original speculation was because Power-wrought might increase the chances of them surviving.