Thoughts on Logain

[randsc]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

[MasterAblar]

I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

 

 

That is a somewhat one sided argument. A Twin Towers arrangement would give the Asha'man legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Over time the close living arrangements will help to soothe and erase the old tensions and prejudices. Besides such close proximity would give the two sides a greater chance to keep tabs on one another. Yes the Aes Sedai will want to take a hand in Asha'man affairs, but it also will give Logain a chance for the same. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case literally. We know with the turning of the Wheel men and women wielding the Power will eventually merge into one institution. This would just be the start of the process.

 

I also believe the closing of the rift would go more quickly and smoothly than many think. Already in the series RJ has made a point of emphasis on how surprisingly well Asha'man and Aes Sedai when forced together have gotten along. On top of that the Queen Elayne has made it clear that she considers the Asha'man little more than squatters on her land. A home rightfully theirs in Tar Valon would in my opinion be welcomed by the Asha'man.

 

Also we know Logain and the Asha'man will play a large role in getting the world through TG. To pull an example from real world history let's look at post world war two. The setting up od the United Nations, the redrawing of much of the map. The Soviet Union was almost universally loathed and distrusted by its wartime allies. They were however, granted a seat at the table in the division of power in the new world that emerged from the war. They were granted veto power on the UN council, control of East Germany/East Berlin, and allowed to dominate and retain control over much of the territory in Easterm Europe that they seized from the Nazis. While Logain is no Stalin, he will no doubt be viewed in a similar light. If he like Stalin helps save the world from a common enemy that virtually destroys the world as it was known, it would stand to reason that he like Stalin will be granted a major slice of the pie in determining how the world will be rebuilt, and how power will be divided up.

 

Well to each their opinion I guess, but I'm not convinced. I think the asha'man will want as little to do with the aes sedai as possible. And Elayne has already said that her owning of the BT, or the land it's on, is all talk. If Logain said enough to Elayne and declared that she has no right over the BT, then Elayne could stomp around all she wanted there would be nothing she could do about it. Taim can't do that because of Rand and because it would be best not to have any conflict between the BT and Andor.

 

The aes sedai and asha'man working together relatively well are all bonded too each other, and not really voluntarily.

 

I'm not saying that the aes sedai and the asha'man could not eventually work together but I think that this is too much too soon, it doesn't fit with their opinion of each other. A home in Tar Valon would seem rather suspicious to the asha'man. With how fast the BT is growing, I really think it's there to stay. Androl even gave a little foreshadowing thinking about how the streets whispered of the greatness to come, or something like that. A Twin Tower arrangement as you say might give the asha'man legitimacy but it would also be thanks to the aes sedai and the asha'man probably wouldn't be viewed as equals to the aes sedai.

 

And come on, 2 towers in Tar Valon? That's just going to screw up the skyline!

 

there's a famous saying ' It's nice to want things but look at reality first'

 

There will be no black tower. The black tower will be destroyed within the first few chapters of the next book. The ashaman will take up residence alongside the aes sedai in tar valon in elaida's palace once the battle is over. There is no allying with andor and working alone amongst themselves. You need to let go of that particular train of thought you have. Aes sedai and the ashaman have already bonded as it is.

 

 

Coming back to the topic, Logain's glory is so bloody obvious it's a suprise RJ didnt practically give it away. He is going to assume the leadership of all male chanellers following rand's retirement after the last battle. And funnily enough, it's the type of glory he always wanted. To be a leader among men and not a follower. Ofcourse he will be sharing power with Egwene

 

I don't remember the prophecy saying that the BT would be destroyed. It said it would be rent in fire in blood. The asha'man seem attached to the BT and to who they are. They aren't going to give it up to go beside the aes sedai in Tar Valon. As far I can see, Elaida's tower was just a sign of how arrogant she had become. It's probably barely begun anyway. The aes sedai who have been bonded were bonded against there will, that's not exactly promising future cooperation. Flinn and Corele work but those are just individuals. As a whole the 2 organizations hate each other, and that's not going to disappear overnight. With time they will start working together, but moving into the same city, being basically next door to each other is way too big a step.

 

Besides why should the asha'man put restrictions on themselves like that? Alone, for a time at least, they can build the BT into something great and stop others from trying to influence things inside the BT as would undoubtedly happen should they go to Tar Valon. Why tie themselves to an organization which is loosing it's influence over the world.

 

And I never said the asha'man would ally with Andor. Quite the opposite actually.

[MasterAblar]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

 

Caemlyn is still fine in Aviendha's vision. I know those don't necessarily tell only true things, and they're more like what "could be", but I don't see how anything that Aviendha, or Rand, or whoever does, is going to make the city go from fine to rubble. Nothing Aviendha changes would affect the Shadowspawn army attacking Caemlyn.

[Elan Tedronai]

I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

 

 

That is a somewhat one sided argument. A Twin Towers arrangement would give the Asha'man legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Over time the close living arrangements will help to soothe and erase the old tensions and prejudices. Besides such close proximity would give the two sides a greater chance to keep tabs on one another. Yes the Aes Sedai will want to take a hand in Asha'man affairs, but it also will give Logain a chance for the same. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case literally. We know with the turning of the Wheel men and women wielding the Power will eventually merge into one institution. This would just be the start of the process.

 

I also believe the closing of the rift would go more quickly and smoothly than many think. Already in the series RJ has made a point of emphasis on how surprisingly well Asha'man and Aes Sedai when forced together have gotten along. On top of that the Queen Elayne has made it clear that she considers the Asha'man little more than squatters on her land. A home rightfully theirs in Tar Valon would in my opinion be welcomed by the Asha'man.

 

Also we know Logain and the Asha'man will play a large role in getting the world through TG. To pull an example from real world history let's look at post world war two. The setting up od the United Nations, the redrawing of much of the map. The Soviet Union was almost universally loathed and distrusted by its wartime allies. They were however, granted a seat at the table in the division of power in the new world that emerged from the war. They were granted veto power on the UN council, control of East Germany/East Berlin, and allowed to dominate and retain control over much of the territory in Easterm Europe that they seized from the Nazis. While Logain is no Stalin, he will no doubt be viewed in a similar light. If he like Stalin helps save the world from a common enemy that virtually destroys the world as it was known, it would stand to reason that he like Stalin will be granted a major slice of the pie in determining how the world will be rebuilt, and how power will be divided up.

 

Well to each their opinion I guess, but I'm not convinced. I think the asha'man will want as little to do with the aes sedai as possible. And Elayne has already said that her owning of the BT, or the land it's on, is all talk. If Logain said enough to Elayne and declared that she has no right over the BT, then Elayne could stomp around all she wanted there would be nothing she could do about it. Taim can't do that because of Rand and because it would be best not to have any conflict between the BT and Andor.

 

The aes sedai and asha'man working together relatively well are all bonded too each other, and not really voluntarily.

 

I'm not saying that the aes sedai and the asha'man could not eventually work together but I think that this is too much too soon, it doesn't fit with their opinion of each other. A home in Tar Valon would seem rather suspicious to the asha'man. With how fast the BT is growing, I really think it's there to stay. Androl even gave a little foreshadowing thinking about how the streets whispered of the greatness to come, or something like that. A Twin Tower arrangement as you say might give the asha'man legitimacy but it would also be thanks to the aes sedai and the asha'man probably wouldn't be viewed as equals to the aes sedai.

 

And come on, 2 towers in Tar Valon? That's just going to screw up the skyline!

 

there's a famous saying ' It's nice to want things but look at reality first'

 

There will be no black tower. The black tower will be destroyed within the first few chapters of the next book. The ashaman will take up residence alongside the aes sedai in tar valon in elaida's palace once the battle is over. There is no allying with andor and working alone amongst themselves. You need to let go of that particular train of thought you have. Aes sedai and the ashaman have already bonded as it is.

 

 

Coming back to the topic, Logain's glory is so bloody obvious it's a suprise RJ didnt practically give it away. He is going to assume the leadership of all male chanellers following rand's retirement after the last battle. And funnily enough, it's the type of glory he always wanted. To be a leader among men and not a follower. Ofcourse he will be sharing power with Egwene

 

I don't remember the prophecy saying that the BT would be destroyed. It said it would be rent in fire in blood. The asha'man seem attached to the BT and to who they are. They aren't going to give it up to go beside the aes sedai in Tar Valon. As far I can see, Elaida's tower was just a sign of how arrogant she had become. It's probably barely begun anyway. The aes sedai who have been bonded were bonded against there will, that's not exactly promising future cooperation. Flinn and Corele work but those are just individuals. As a whole the 2 organizations hate each other, and that's not going to disappear overnight. With time they will start working together, but moving into the same city, being basically next door to each other is way too big a step.

 

Besides why should the asha'man put restrictions on themselves like that? Alone, for a time at least, they can build the BT into something great and stop others from trying to influence things inside the BT as would undoubtedly happen should they go to Tar Valon. Why tie themselves to an organization which is loosing it's influence over the world.

 

And I never said the asha'man would ally with Andor. Quite the opposite actually.

 

 

rent in fire and blood and sisters walk it's grounds. The black tower has been bubbling for a while now and you got a glimpse of it in the last book with sisters being turned.

 

Once it has been destroyed due the battle between taim and logain's forces, the question arises where will they go next when the war is over? Having another BT in andor? highly unlikely. When the BT was made by rand, it was because he had reasons to keep the male seperate from females. Now There will be no need to maintain the status quo. 3000 years ago men and women chanellers lived under one roof. All that changed when saidin was tainted. That stumbling block is no longer present. All the enmity and the suspicion will be put aside because both sides will see that joining togther rather dividing is in their best interest and certainly the interests of the people in randland.

 

circumstances divided the men and women and it will be current change in circumstances that will bring them back together.

[Elan Tedronai]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

 

yes, the black tower will not be destroyed. It will only be rent in fire and blood. C'mon man. The BT days are numbered and it will be history.

 

As for rand, he will retire. He may die and come back to life or fake his death or whatever but he will live once everything is done and dusted. And he will retire in peace and his whereabouts will be unknown. He will do his job of sealing the bore, earn his redemption from his AOL failures and then relinquish all his titles and retire. His concern will no longer be of this world which will still be filled with troubles and battles and skirmishes.

 

That's when logain steps in and takes over the ashaman. And that's when logain decides to move in with the aes sedai in tar valon. And that's when the foretelling of the guardians balancing the servants will come to pass. And that's when the new age starts. An age where women and men are no longer seperate from each other but instead working with each other prior to the breaking.

[MasterAblar]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

 

yes, the black tower will not be destroyed. It will only be rent in fire and blood. C'mon man. The BT days are numbered and it will be history.

 

As for rand, he will retire. He may die and come back to life or fake his death or whatever but he will live once everything is done and dusted. And he will retire in peace and his whereabouts will be unknown. He will do his job of sealing the bore, earn his redemption from his AOL failures and then relinquish all his titles and retire. His concern will no longer be of this world which will still be filled with troubles and battles and skirmishes.

 

That's when logain steps in and takes over the ashaman. And that's when logain decides to move in with the aes sedai in tar valon. And that's when the foretelling of the guardians balancing the servants will come to pass. And that's when the new age starts. An age where women and men are no longer seperate from each other but instead working with each other prior to the breaking.

 

And what happens to the hate and prejudice?

[Elan Tedronai]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

 

yes, the black tower will not be destroyed. It will only be rent in fire and blood. C'mon man. The BT days are numbered and it will be history.

 

As for rand, he will retire. He may die and come back to life or fake his death or whatever but he will live once everything is done and dusted. And he will retire in peace and his whereabouts will be unknown. He will do his job of sealing the bore, earn his redemption from his AOL failures and then relinquish all his titles and retire. His concern will no longer be of this world which will still be filled with troubles and battles and skirmishes.

 

That's when logain steps in and takes over the ashaman. And that's when logain decides to move in with the aes sedai in tar valon. And that's when the foretelling of the guardians balancing the servants will come to pass. And that's when the new age starts. An age where women and men are no longer seperate from each other but instead working with each other prior to the breaking.

 

And what happens to the hate and prejudice?

 

it will be replaced by mutual trust and respect. They will be forced to it. Some will embrace it willingly. Others will be wary. They might not like it especially echoing silviana's comments to egwene when she was raised as a keeper in TGS but they will have to move beyond that mentality. The menatility of us versus them.

[MasterAblar]

I agree that it is most likely that the Black Tower will end up being in Elaida's tower. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Elaida's tower to have been in the books.

 

I do not agree than the current Black Tower will be destroyed. The foretelling doesn't say that the Black Tower will be destroyed. It says that it will be rent with fire and death, and that sisters would walk its grounds (as they already do).

 

The current Black Tower will be the new Caemlyn, after the original is destroyed by the Shadowspawn army.

 

Logain's glory likely has to do with his position after the Last Battle, although it is by no means obvious that Rand will "retire." He is clearly going to die; he may well live again. But we don't know for sure that he will live again, or that he will retire if he does.

 

yes, the black tower will not be destroyed. It will only be rent in fire and blood. C'mon man. The BT days are numbered and it will be history.

 

As for rand, he will retire. He may die and come back to life or fake his death or whatever but he will live once everything is done and dusted. And he will retire in peace and his whereabouts will be unknown. He will do his job of sealing the bore, earn his redemption from his AOL failures and then relinquish all his titles and retire. His concern will no longer be of this world which will still be filled with troubles and battles and skirmishes.

 

That's when logain steps in and takes over the ashaman. And that's when logain decides to move in with the aes sedai in tar valon. And that's when the foretelling of the guardians balancing the servants will come to pass. And that's when the new age starts. An age where women and men are no longer seperate from each other but instead working with each other prior to the breaking.

 

And what happens to the hate and prejudice?

 

it will be replaced by mutual trust and respect. They will be forced to it. Some will embrace it willingly. Others will be wary. They might not like it especially echoing silviana's comments to egwene when she was raised as a keeper in TGS but they will have to move beyond that mentality. The menatility of us versus them.

 

Agreed that's what's got to happen. I just can't see it happening immediately like that. You can't force someone to trust or respect another. It takes time for that to develop, at least in my opinion. And for the asha'man to move in right next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon, the aes sedai stronghold, that trust and respect is a must.

[hurryupnwait]

Never underestimate the patterns ability to move things in the direction it needs them to be moved in. Rand once told Mat that fighting the Pattern was impossible. Whenever he did so he was forced in the direction he was meant to go in often unpleasantly so. He then told Mat only when he ran in the direction he was supposed to go did he have any measure of freedom in doing things at least a little his way.

 

I agree many of the sisters have been bonded against their will, and to balance that Rand has ordered an equal number of Asha'man bonded to Aes Sedai. This does not take into account the few that have WILLINGLY bonded together. Narishma and Flinn come to mind immediately. This is something that is spreading rapidly, and I predict will begin to spread exponentially.

 

While I do agree Elaida started construction on that second Tower out of arrogance, that is why I said it would be ironic if a militant Red's ego palace became home to the Asha'man. It is unclear how far into the construction that tower is, but we do get some hints from Elaida's various POVs. She mentions meeting with the foreman in charge of the project and looking over the miniature model tower with him to discuss the project. She also is annoyed at the sister not working as diligently as she wants in helping with the construction of her palace. We can glean at least 3 things from this. First she hired a construction crew and foreman to begin actual construction it was not just an idea it was underway. Second we know enough progress was made on it for the foreman to walk Elaida through the mini tower to discuss their progress. I could be wrong but that probably means they are past the digging of the foundations stage. Third we know that at least some of the work was done by sisters wielding the One Power. This also would hint that even though the sisters were not as enthusiastic about it as Elaida wanted, they no doubt made much faster progress than could have been made by the sweat of a crew of simple men's backs.

 

I also think a semi merger with the Aes Sedai would increase the influence and prestige of the Asha'man not diminish it. I am no fan of Egwene or Aes Sedai arrogance but to the people of Randland the White Tower has stood as a monolith in their society for 3000 years. They have the respect of every Monarch in the land. This is evident by Egwene's ability to gather the armies of the world in opposition to the breaking of the seals. We the almost omniscient readers can see the cracks and flaws the women of Tar Valon have in abundance, but the folks in the story do not.

 

I will acknowledge that it is possible that my Twin Towers theory could be 100% wrong. As I have said before both the irony of Elaida's Tower housing the wielders of Saidin, and the Symbolism of Men and Women working and living side by side as equals in an Ivory tower balanced by an Ebony Tower appeal to me.

[MasterAblar]

Never underestimate the patterns ability to move things in the direction it needs them to be moved in. Rand once told Mat that fighting the Pattern was impossible. Whenever he did so he was forced in the direction he was meant to go in often unpleasantly so. He then told Mat only when he ran in the direction he was supposed to go did he have any measure of freedom in doing things at least a little his way.

 

I agree many of the sisters have been bonded against their will, and to balance that Rand has ordered an equal number of Asha'man bonded to Aes Sedai. This does not take into account the few that have WILLINGLY bonded together. Narishma and Flinn come to mind immediately. This is something that is spreading rapidly, and I predict will begin to spread exponentially.

 

While I do agree Elaida started construction on that second Tower out of arrogance, that is why I said it would be ironic if a militant Red's ego palace became home to the Asha'man. It is unclear how far into the construction that tower is, but we do get some hints from Elaida's various POVs. She mentions meeting with the foreman in charge of the project and looking over the miniature model tower with him to discuss the project. She also is annoyed at the sister not working as diligently as she wants in helping with the construction of her palace. We can glean at least 3 things from this. First she hired a construction crew and foreman to begin actual construction it was not just an idea it was underway. Second we know enough progress was made on it for the foreman to walk Elaida through the mini tower to discuss their progress. I could be wrong but that probably means they are past the digging of the foundations stage. Third we know that at least some of the work was done by sisters wielding the One Power. This also would hint that even though the sisters were not as enthusiastic about it as Elaida wanted, they no doubt made much faster progress than could have been made by the sweat of a crew of simple men's backs.

 

I also think a semi merger with the Aes Sedai would increase the influence and prestige of the Asha'man not diminish it. I am no fan of Egwene or Aes Sedai arrogance but to the people of Randland the White Tower has stood as a monolith in their society for 3000 years. They have the respect of every Monarch in the land. This is evident by Egwene's ability to gather the armies of the world in opposition to the breaking of the seals. We the almost omniscient readers can see the cracks and flaws the women of Tar Valon have in abundance, but the folks in the story do not.

 

I will acknowledge that it is possible that my Twin Towers theory could be 100% wrong. As I have said before both the irony of Elaida's Tower housing the wielders of Saidin, and the Symbolism of Men and Women working and living side by side as equals in an Ivory tower balanced by an Ebony Tower appeal to me.

 

It might increase the influence and prestige of the asha'man, or it might make everybody think that the aes sedai have them under control. However that influence and prestige would be gained through the aes sedai and I don't think the asha'man are willing to accept that. They have their pride, they would want to trace their own road to glory.

 

Narishma and Flinn (and Eben for that matter) hardly made that decision completely willingly. They were afraid to go back to the BT and the aes sedai jumped on that occasion to bond them. They never would have done it had they not been in danger. They get along fairly well with their aes sedai now true, but there have been to this day no asha'man bonded to an aes sedai with both parties completely willing, with no strings attached, and nothing forcing them to do it. Except for Rand and Elayne that is. Rand is after all the first asha'man (as well as the last male aes sedai).

 

I can see why the pattern would make the asha'man and aes sedai work together one way or another for the Last Battle, but I don't see that it would have any reason to after. With time I think that eventually they will start working together again, if not as closely as in the AOL. But that's going to take time ,and hopefully new generations which won't be corrupted by old hatreds and prejudices.

 

Of course I would never imply that your theory has no chance of being true, I just don't think it's likely, but that's just me. And honestly the idea of asha'man in Tar Valon doesn't appeal to me, whether it's right after the Last Battle or long after. I feel that if they are going to start working with the aes sedai, then a new start is in order. Working together: sure, but not in Tar Valon. Let them begin anew somewhere else.

[bjsm]

There is also eg's dream of him steping over Randss corpse and sitting on a throne. So I have always he might play some part in Rand's death. I dont think he is evil but he may benifit from it in some way.

 

I always imagined this as Logain basically taking over as the leader of the world/forces of good/whatever after Rand dies/goes away. Because Rand, if he survives at all, is definitely going to have a Frodo ending. He has to.

[OptimusPrime]

I feel that if they are going to start working with the aes sedai, then a new start is in order. Working together: sure, but not in Tar Valon. Let them begin anew somewhere else.

 

Could be an interesting discussion, that. Saldaea? Malkier reborn?

 

Shayol Ghul?!?

[MasterAblar]

I feel that if they are going to start working with the aes sedai, then a new start is in order. Working together: sure, but not in Tar Valon. Let them begin anew somewhere else.

 

Could be an interesting discussion, that. Saldaea? Malkier reborn?

 

Shayol Ghul?!?

 

LOL, now that would be awesome! and even more ironic than Elaida's tower.

 

I'm not sure, probably somewhere where there are no existing nations since those rulers probably wouldn't appreciate it. Look at Elayne with the BT. I though maybe near the Mountains of Mist. Preferably with a river close by.

[Terez]

My theory has always been that Tar Valon will be destroyed and they'll have to start over in Rhuidean. It's especially attractive if the Aiel are going to return to the First Covenant in some way.

[MasterAblar]

My theory has always been that Tar Valon will be destroyed and they'll have to start over in Rhuidean. It's especially attractive if the Aiel are going to return to the First Covenant in some way.

 

That's true, not to mention there is actually water there now, so that wouldn't be a problem.

[Terez]

I think what made it most attractive to me (aside from the possible recreation of the First Covenant) was the fact that Aes Sedai were so involved in its beginnings. The city was built to be something grand, but was never finished. I wonder if the Ogier ever got any work done on it before the Great Stump.

 

Also, Egwene as Amyrlin makes it attractive. And I just really want Dragonmount to blow up and destroy the city. I will feel cheated if that doesn't happen. You can't plant a humongous volcano right outside a city and not have it blow up and destroy the city. It's like Chekhov's Gun to the max.

[MasterAblar]

I think what made it most attractive to me (aside from the possible recreation of the First Covenant) was the fact that Aes Sedai were so involved in its beginnings. The city was built to be something grand, but was never finished. I wonder if the Ogier ever got any work done on it before the Great Stump.

 

Also, Egwene as Amyrlin makes it attractive. And I just really want Dragonmount to blow up and destroy the city. I will feel cheated if that doesn't happen. You can't plant a humongous volcano right outside a city and not have it blow up and destroy the city. It's like Chekhov's Gun to the max.

 

That would make the nightmare Perrin and Slayer were fighting in one huge foreshadowing. All in all not the best of times to be living in Tar Valon: first the WT splits, followed by a siege, the seanchan raid, and probably a second serving of the seanchan except full strength this time. And then to top it all off that damn volcano blows up. Talk about bad luck.

[Terez]

Then on top of that we have several references to Dragonmount smoking (it's always smoking, and clearly active), and Vandene even makes a reference to it blowing:

 

Vandene rose to her feet. "Well, I have tasks to be about before bed. If you have no more questions, I will leave you to your studies." But she paused and revealed that however long she had spent with books, she was still of the Green Ajah. "You should do something about Lan, Moiraine. The man is rumbling inside worse than Dragonmount. Sooner or later, he will erupt. I've known enough men to see when one is troubled with a woman. You two have been together a long time. Perhaps he has finally come to see you are a woman as well as Aes Sedai."

 

"Lan sees me as what I am, Vandene. Aes Sedai. And still as a friend, I hope."

And then there is the sexual symbolism, of course. Can't forget that.

[MasterAblar]

Then on top of that we have several references to Dragonmount smoking (it's always smoking, and clearly active), and Vandene even makes a reference to it blowing:

 

Vandene rose to her feet. "Well, I have tasks to be about before bed. If you have no more questions, I will leave you to your studies." But she paused and revealed that however long she had spent with books, she was still of the Green Ajah. "You should do something about Lan, Moiraine. The man is rumbling inside worse than Dragonmount. Sooner or later, he will erupt. I've known enough men to see when one is troubled with a woman. You two have been together a long time. Perhaps he has finally come to see you are a woman as well as Aes Sedai."

 

"Lan sees me as what I am, Vandene. Aes Sedai. And still as a friend, I hope."

And then there is the sexual symbolism, of course. Can't forget that.

 

Hahaha now that would be one crazy bit of foreshadowing right there.

[OptimusPrime]

I just hope we somehow get at least one Aiel male channeler that goes to Rand. One of the Brotherless maybe, or a Shaido. Rhuidean does sound like an interesting one as well, but the Wise Ones might have trouble with their Dreaming there as IIRC Rhuidean doesnt appear in T'A'R.

[Terez]

Rhuidean has always appeared in Tel'aran'rhiod; it simply wasn't accessible until the shield was destroyed.

[Phelix]

Tar Valon shouldn't be destroyed... if it is, the foreshadowing from LoC won't make sense.

 

 

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Chant from a children’s game heard in

Great Arvalon

, the Fourth Age

 

 

"Great Arvalon" sounds like an easy corruption of "Tar Valon" or, perhaps even "Gray Tar Valon." If the men take over Elaida's Tower, it would put the Black and White Towers together, and what happens when we blend Black and White? We get Gray!

 

While I'm not sure we'll see the two Towers cohabitating in Tar Valon, there's at least one quote that implies Tar Valon will continue to exist. And there will be kids there who play games.

 

[Terez]

This has been discussed to death, and I assure you we didn't miss that. It may be that another city is built on the site in the future, but more likely is that the name shifts to another location, as happened with Arad Doman. The 'gray' conjecture is stretching a bit.

[Phelix]

This has been discussed to death, and I assure you we didn't miss that. It may be that another city is built on the site in the future, but more likely is that the name shifts to another location, as happened with Arad Doman. The 'gray' conjecture is stretching a bit.

 

 

It wasn't mentioned here... and I'm unsure why the name would shift to another location. So far, place names seem to stick fairly well. Manetheren died more than two thousand years before the "current" timeline, and it never moved. The same applies to Aridhol/Shadar Logoth. Malkier died more recently, with enough of a population remaining that they can form a significant force about 50 years after the fact... and that nation didn't move. In WoTland, names don't seem to move.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about Arad Doman shifting. Enlighten me?

 

And yes, the gray conjecture is stretching a whole hell of a lot. That's why I said I wasn't sure about it.

[Terez]

I'm not sure what you mean about Arad Doman shifting. Enlighten me?

Arad was the first king of Manetheren.