Masema and aes sedai and seanchan

[PhoenixUK]

Can anyone clear up for me what was going on with the aes sedai apprentices with Perrin's wise ones, and masema? They all seemed to agree that perrin should kill masema as he was a rabid dog. But then Perrin finds out that some of them are meeting masema behind his back. So is Berelaine's advisor, Annoura. What was going on? Were they trying to kill masema, or trick him into making it obviously dangerous he was so perrin would HAVE to kill him? Or were they actually betraying perrin and rand?

 

Also, why was suroth making an alliance with him? Some darkfriend plot? Surely she had no need to, the Ever Victorious Army had no need to fear rabble, even one as big as masema's mob. They certainly did not seem to fear dragonsworn in Arad Doman and Tarabon.

 

thanks for any comments :)

[herid]

Can anyone clear up for me what was going on with the aes sedai apprentices with Perrin's wise ones, and masema? They all seemed to agree that perrin should kill masema as he was a rabid dog. But then Perrin finds out that some of them are meeting masema behind his back. So is Berelaine's advisor, Annoura. What was going on? Were they trying to kill masema, or trick him into making it obviously dangerous he was so perrin would HAVE to kill him? Or were they actually betraying perrin and rand?

 

Also, why was suroth making an alliance with him? Some darkfriend plot? Surely she had no need to, the Ever Victorious Army had no need to fear rabble, even one as big as masema's mob. They certainly did not seem to fear dragonsworn in Arad Doman and Tarabon.

 

thanks for any comments :)

none of this was ever explained and I don't think it will be. This feels like a loose plot thread that was left dangling after Jordan died. Masema is very quickly bumped off early in tGS, but personally, I don't beleive that's what Jordan intended. Masema was dragged around for far too many books to die so inconsequentially. Especially considering that some Wise Ones dreamed that he was a potential danger to Rand if they meet. Things like that always play out in the end in WoT. When the domination band shows up in Tanchico it's a sure bet that it will eventually find its way to Rand's neck. When we see Fain with his dagger you just know that Rand is going to get slashed by it. When Lan tells Rand that he might need to "sheath the sword" in his body we know right away that Rand had better start practicing the forms. and so on. Yet Masema, who is a mysterious danger to Rand and is clearly controlled by one of the Forsaken (likely Lanfear) dies without so much as lifting a finger to defend himself and with that mysterious danger to Rand unfulfilled. I just can't believe that this is what Jordan was planning to do with him.

[capuga]

none of this was ever explained and I don't think it will be. This feels like a loose plot thread that was left dangling after Jordan died. Masema is very quickly bumped off early in tGS, but personally, I don't beleive that's what Jordan intended. Masema was dragged around for far too many books to die so inconsequentially.

 

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one:

 

1. We know that RJ wrote a fair amount of the prologue material. Its very likely that the Masema scene was his writing.

2. Its very unlikely that RJ didn't leave a note on the fate of Masema since he was a relatively important secondary character.

 

Personally, I loved the way his death was handled. He was put down like the rapid dog that he was in a scene that increased my respect for Faile. Plus, his "army" had broken and his purpose in the plot was served. He was never anything more than someone for Perrin to chase and one of the steps he had to climb to get to where he was at the end of tGS - a man in charge of a much bigger and better group of people than Masema's rabble.

 

However, I do hope we get some kind of reveal on went went on in the meetings between the Aes Sedai and Masema.

[herid]

none of this was ever explained and I don't think it will be. This feels like a loose plot thread that was left dangling after Jordan died. Masema is very quickly bumped off early in tGS, but personally, I don't beleive that's what Jordan intended. Masema was dragged around for far too many books to die so inconsequentially.

 

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one:

 

1. We know that RJ wrote a fair amount of the prologue material. Its very likely that the Masema scene was his writing.

2. Its very unlikely that RJ didn't leave a note on the fate of Masema since he was a relatively important secondary character.

 

Personally, I loved the way his death was handled. He was put down like the rapid dog that he was in a scene that increased my respect for Faile. Plus, his "army" had broken and his purpose in the plot was served. He was never anything more than someone for Perrin to chase and one of the steps he had to climb to get to where he was at the end of tGS - a man in charge of a much bigger and better group of people than Masema's rabble.

 

However, I do hope we get some kind of reveal on went went on in the meetings between the Aes Sedai and Masema.

Well, that was all speculation on my part of course but that's how this whole thing feels to me. I know that RJ left lots of notes but BS also said that they didn't cover everybody and in some cases it was up to him how to get a certain character from A to B. We'll never know for sure unless BS speaks on this particular issue which I would consider highly unlikely.

[Luckers]

I wrote out a theory about all this which you can find here: Masuri, Annoura and the Shiny Dragon Man

 

Basically I believe that Masuri and Annoura are black Ajah, and that they weren't meeting Masema but rather the one who was controlling him--or at the least, her agents (Brandon confirmed that the shiny dragon man was in fact a woman--after hearing about my theory too, thanks to Matt Hatch of Theoryland :D).

[OptimusPrime]

I wrote out a theory about all this which you can find here: Masuri, Annoura and the Shiny Dragon Man

 

Basically I believe that Masuri and Annoura are black Ajah, and that they weren't meeting Masema but rather the one who was controlling him--or at the least, her agents (Brandon confirmed that the shiny dragon man was in fact a woman--after hearing about my theory too, thanks to Matt Hatch of Theoryland :D).

 

Thats really interesting. Who do you think it was? Id actually like it if it was Moghedien, but I think Mesaana or Graendal are more likely

[Luckers]

I think Moghedien--but check out the linked thread, it contains my full rationale.

[herid]

I wrote out a theory about all this which you can find here: Masuri, Annoura and the Shiny Dragon Man

 

Basically I believe that Masuri and Annoura are black Ajah, and that they weren't meeting Masema but rather the one who was controlling him--or at the least, her agents (Brandon confirmed that the shiny dragon man was in fact a woman--after hearing about my theory too, thanks to Matt Hatch of Theoryland :D).

 

Thats really interesting. Who do you think it was? Id actually like it if it was Moghedien, but I think Mesaana or Graendal are more likely

Why would you think that? Mesaana is sitting in the Tower. She never showed interest in anything else. and Graendal only turned her attention to Perrin in ToM by her own admission. she was busy with something else before.

I've read Luckers' theory and find the evidence presented far too thin for such far reaching conclusions as he makes. as for who controlled Masema, the most natural guess is Lanfear IMO. She was in Falme when Masema started losing his marbles. Turning him into Rand's prophet is just the kind of thing she might have done in order to "help" Rand.

[Luckers]

The problem with Lanfear is that that suggests that he was manipulated from the start...

 

HBFFerreira on Twitter - 15 August 2010 4:04 am

Masema: was he being manipulated by a Forsaken from the start? His dealings with Suroth, and him not wanting to go to Rand?

Brandon - 16 August 6:57 am

Masema was not manipulated from the start, but once he was noticed as a potentially useful tool.

 

Meanwhile, Moghedien was directly studying Samara right at the point when Masema had grown enough power to be a worthwhile investment for a Chosen--as Brandon said--in order to develop her disguise. At the exact same time she developed and set in motion several plans in the region, including three which we do not currently know the purpose of.

[herid]

The problem with Lanfear is that that suggests that he was manipulated from the start...

 

HBFFerreira on Twitter - 15 August 2010 4:04 am

Masema: was he being manipulated by a Forsaken from the start? His dealings with Suroth, and him not wanting to go to Rand?

Brandon - 16 August 6:57 am

Masema was not manipulated from the start, but once he was noticed as a potentially useful tool.

 

Meanwhile, Moghedien was directly studying Samara right at the point when Masema had grown enough power to be a worthwhile investment for a Chosen--as Brandon said--in order to develop her disguise. At the exact same time she developed and set in motion several plans in the region, including three which we do not currently know the purpose of.

ah, ok. I didn't know of this quote. I must say that's a pretty big spoiler. I'm surprised BS gave it away like that. that does make Moggy the most likely suspect - you are right on that.

[Luckers]

Yeah, ive been surprised by some of the things Brandon's flat out stated--like when he killed the Sylvase is Cyndane theory.

[Finnssss22]

I wrote out a theory about all this which you can find here: Masuri, Annoura and the Shiny Dragon Man

 

Basically I believe that Masuri and Annoura are black Ajah, and that they weren't meeting Masema but rather the one who was controlling him--or at the least, her agents (Brandon confirmed that the shiny dragon man was in fact a woman--after hearing about my theory too, thanks to Matt Hatch of Theoryland :D).

 

 

Hmmm...interesting take, not bad at all.

What I don't like about it is that it's reason to do another much put off re-read of CoT...god I hate that book heh.

[Arc]

I do like this theory,but I don't see where the Seanchan fit in. I find it unlikely that AS, even black ones would stimulate Masema into deelings with them. Wouldn't that risk close encounters with Suldam? Luckers' theory states that the forsaken wouldn't want to be fulltime involved in keeping Masema alive and threatening. So if the Black sisters were given freedom to act as they saw fitting, why involve the Seanchan?

Am I seeing things wrong?

[Luckers]

Liandrin had involvement with the Seanchan. And besides, maybe Masema instigated that all on his own.

[PhoenixUK]

I wrote out a theory about all this which you can find here: Masuri, Annoura and the Shiny Dragon Man

 

Basically I believe that Masuri and Annoura are black Ajah, and that they weren't meeting Masema but rather the one who was controlling him--or at the least, her agents (Brandon confirmed that the shiny dragon man was in fact a woman--after hearing about my theory too, thanks to Matt Hatch of Theoryland :D).

 

Hmm not bad! Is there any other proof that masuri and annoura are black ajah though? I like the idea that it's also part of that original coven of 13 black sisters.

 

Masema has been a remarkable success for the Shadow, he has caused untold damage to several countries, esp combined with jaichim carridin's dragonsworn. (jaichim had a pretty abrupt ending too).

[Luckers]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

[herid]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

so what do you think happened to Masema's handler (handlers) when he was killed? According to your theory they should have been with him at the time. why didn't they defend themselves?

[Luckers]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

so what do you think happened to Masema's handler (handlers) when he was killed? According to your theory they should have been with him at the time. why didn't they defend themselves?

 

Actually I suspect they would have extricated themselves before Malden.

[herid]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

so what do you think happened to Masema's handler (handlers) when he was killed? According to your theory they should have been with him at the time. why didn't they defend themselves?

 

Actually I suspect they would have extricated themselves before Malden.

why? I don't mean that they had to participate in the attack on Malden but why would the leave Masema unattended after that?

another question. how did they hide their ageless faces when they stayed with Masema? None of the Liandrin group apparently know how to use MoM. Liandrin herself had to wear a hood to hide her ageless face in Amadicia.

[PhoenixUK]

Rereading TOM at moment, and perrin finds masema's corpse, and wonders to himself why annoura etc were visiting him, and decides that he will prob never find out - I think Sanderson is hinting at us that the author doesn't know either :p Maybe RJ never left an explanatory note for it.

[Luckers]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

so what do you think happened to Masema's handler (handlers) when he was killed? According to your theory they should have been with him at the time. why didn't they defend themselves?

 

Actually I suspect they would have extricated themselves before Malden.

why? I don't mean that they had to participate in the attack on Malden but why would the leave Masema unattended after that?

another question. how did they hide their ageless faces when they stayed with Masema? None of the Liandrin group apparently know how to use MoM. Liandrin herself had to wear a hood to hide her ageless face in Amadicia.

 

Masema's power was broken after Malden. He became useless.

 

As for your other questions, read the thread I linked above--it probably answers a whole number of issues that I havn't touched on in this thread.

[Sharaman]

The female dragon impersonator might just have been Halima as well.

In the Forsaken teaparty, we get a hint from her PoV that she has, at some stage, played the impersonation game when Moridin is talking about the Sammael impersonator. Apart from the Sammy trolloc episode, we've seen two possible cases of "impersonation" - one was the person who gave Slayer orders (while concealing him/herself behind an odd veil that made it impossible for Slayer to look directly at him/her) and the other was the shiny dragon.

[Luckers]

The female dragon impersonator might just have been Halima as well.

In the Forsaken teaparty, we get a hint from her PoV that she has, at some stage, played the impersonation game when Moridin is talking about the Sammael impersonator. Apart from the Sammy trolloc episode, we've seen two possible cases of "impersonation" - one was the person who gave Slayer orders (while concealing him/herself behind an odd veil that made it impossible for Slayer to look directly at him/her) and the other was the shiny dragon.

 

Brandon clarified that the impersonators soul was female.

 

Matt: ...I’ll say it this way, does this individual have the soul of a man or a woman?

Brandon: mmmhmm. (pauses looking up for a good twenty or thirty seconds)

Brandon: Female.

[Sharaman]

The female dragon impersonator might just have been Halima as well.

In the Forsaken teaparty, we get a hint from her PoV that she has, at some stage, played the impersonation game when Moridin is talking about the Sammael impersonator. Apart from the Sammy trolloc episode, we've seen two possible cases of "impersonation" - one was the person who gave Slayer orders (while concealing him/herself behind an odd veil that made it impossible for Slayer to look directly at him/her) and the other was the shiny dragon.

 

Brandon clarified that the impersonators soul was female.

 

Matt: ...I’ll say it this way, does this individual have the soul of a man or a woman?

Brandon: mmmhmm. (pauses looking up for a good twenty or thirty seconds)

Brandon: Female.

Ah ok! Thanks. Leaves one wondering when/if Halima did the impersonation though.

[herid]

No proof, but I do think the logic of why Annoura and Masuri excluded Seonid is very--interesting. Whatever the answer I hope that gets addressed.

so what do you think happened to Masema's handler (handlers) when he was killed? According to your theory they should have been with him at the time. why didn't they defend themselves?

 

Actually I suspect they would have extricated themselves before Malden.

why? I don't mean that they had to participate in the attack on Malden but why would the leave Masema unattended after that?

another question. how did they hide their ageless faces when they stayed with Masema? None of the Liandrin group apparently know how to use MoM. Liandrin herself had to wear a hood to hide her ageless face in Amadicia.

 

Masema's power was broken after Malden. He became useless.

 

As for your other questions, read the thread I linked above--it probably answers a whole number of issues that I havn't touched on in this thread.

Thanks. I read that thread. It doesn't really answer my second question. But after thinking about it it's possible that Moggy taught them the disguise trick before sending them to Masema. she was the one who taught it to Nyn and Elayne after all. Anyway, it's an interesting theory although I'm far from sure that Annuora and Masuri are Black. But you give a pretty good argument that Moggy is the one controlling Masema and she may have sent someone from Liandrin's group to keep tabs on him.