I think I have a good alternative Taim theory

[OptimusPrime]

The thing that I simply cannot get past with Taim is the aura we saw in Winters Heart. Light seemed to become dimmer when he was near, its in the prologue from Elaynes PoV. It was the same kind of aura we saw around Rand in TGS.

 

Now, it seems clear that the aura was not directly tied to True Power usage, because in Tams encounter with Rand in TGS, Tam saw the dark aura around Rand and throughout the entire scene Rands PoV didnt mention any sort of True Power channeling at all, it was all saidin.

 

The black aura is there because a Ta'veren became dark. In Rands case, using the True Power affected his mentality, but it is the Pattern-affecting mentality being dark that is the cause of the aura. NOT True Power usage.

 

So what if Taim was a rogue Ta'veren? Is this a viable option, Taim being a Ta'veren-come-Darkfriend?

 

In all honesty I think this is less likely than Mazridin but I just had this thought on the matter today, so I thought Id see what people say, seeing as most are so dead set on the guy being himself.

 

Thoughts?

[MasterAblar]

The thing that I simply cannot get past with Taim is the aura we saw in Winters Heart. Light seemed to become dimmer when he was near, its in the prologue from Elaynes PoV. It was the same kind of aura we saw around Rand in TGS.

 

Now, it seems clear that the aura was not directly tied to True Power usage, because in Tams encounter with Rand in TGS, Tam saw the dark aura around Rand and throughout the entire scene Rands PoV didnt mention any sort of True Power channeling at all, it was all saidin.

 

The black aura is there because a Ta'veren became dark. In Rands case, using the True Power affected his mentality, but it is the Pattern-affecting mentality being dark that is the cause of the aura. NOT True Power usage.

 

So what if Taim was a rogue Ta'veren? Is this a viable option, Taim being a Ta'veren-come-Darkfriend?

 

In all honesty I think this is less likely than Mazridin but I just had this thought on the matter today, so I thought Id see what people say, seeing as most are so dead set on the guy being himself.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think if that was the case, Logain would have seen it and told Rand about it. He has the talent to see ta'veren after all.

[OptimusPrime]

Logain doesnt even believe Rand Cleansed saidin, why would he run to Rand just to say there another Ta'veren on the scene? And does Logain even know what his Talent means?

[Ashandarei]

So what if Taim was a rogue Ta'veren? Is this a viable option, Taim being a Ta'veren-come-Darkfriend?

Doubtful. The ta'veren are the wheel's corrective mechanisms, similar to Heroes of the Horn. Notice how the Heroes are all good people, not DF's. Also, here's a quote from the creator of the Creator who made the Wheel which spun out the Pattern that chose the ta'veren :

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

Jordan: It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created. I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.

 

Quote Link

[OptimusPrime]

RJ said it was possible but unlikely. I knew someone would post that. He said it was possible. Unlikely is everything a Ta'veren is about. If the Wheel deemed it necessary it would do it.

 

Thank you for posting it though

 

Also Im not talking about a Darkfriend becoming Ta'veren, Im saying a Ta'veren becoming a Darkfriend

[Ashandarei]

RJ said it was possible but unlikely. I knew someone would post that. He said it was possible. Unlikely is everything a Ta'veren is about. If the Wheel deemed it necessary it would do it.

 

Let me add that a "corrective mechanism" for the Pattern would be one that ensures the Patterns ongoing "survival" so-to-speak. Hence we get the Dragon. Also we the the HotH. They prevent the DO from breaking the Wheel and choking the Serpent, thereby unraveling the Pattern and ending time itself. There's a reason they're all Light-siders. How exactly would Taim, a DF who wields almost as much power/influence as a Forsaken, I would argue just as much, how would he help the Wheel not be destroyed? Unless you're claiming that he will turn to the Light, which I would literally bet money against.

[OptimusPrime]

Im not saying the Pattern made a Darkfriend Ta#veren. Im saying a Ta'veren could go Darkfriend. Other way round dude

[Ashandarei]

Im not saying the Pattern made a Darkfriend Ta#veren. Im saying a Ta'veren could go Darkfriend. Other way round dude

 

It doesn't happen at birth, so it's not like ta'veren-ness an inherent quality of that person's life thread in the Pattern. It's gained at some point in life because the Pattern requires it. If they go DF then that doesn't serve the needs of the Pattern and so the person would probably lose that quality. So I'd argue that if Taim was a ta'veren originally(which I don't think he was) he'd lose the ta'veren-ness soon after he first went DF.

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

 

Quote Link

[OptimusPrime]

Im not saying the Pattern made a Darkfriend Ta#veren. Im saying a Ta'veren could go Darkfriend. Other way round dude

 

It doesn't happen at birth

 

Means nothing. Completely irrelevent.

 

birthIt's gained at some point in life because the Pattern requires it. If they go DF then that doesn't serve the needs of the Pattern and so the person would probably lose that quality. So I'd argue that if Taim was a ta'veren originally(which I don't think he was) he'd lose the ta'veren-ness soon after he first went DF.

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

 

Quote Link

 

Again, the quote doesnt address what Im saying. When someone becomes a Ta#veren has nothing to do with any of this. Try not to put words in my mouth please!

 

As for the Pattern taking away the Ta'veren aspect, this is actually relevent. Yet if the Pattern intended them to be recruited into the Darkfriends ranks and fulfill some purpose, even on a subconscious level, then maybe it would leave their Ta'veren aspect in place. Maybe Taim is supposed to recruit for Rand because Rand obviously wasnt going to do it himself. He would be too busy. And judging by the numbers involved in the Cleansing, Rand will hardly need as much as Lews Therin had with him, Rand will have female channelers AND Callandor this time.

 

Isam/Luc are obviously going to fulfill some sort of purpose, which I think will be for the Lights benefit somehow, despite being a Darkfriend. After all Luc was told to go to the Blight as it would somehow be important to the Last Battle. Its not as if the Wheel suddenly loses control over someones thread when they become a Darkfriend.

 

Do NOT even imply that I said Slayer is Ta'veren. Just dont.

 

One last point. I know Rand is an unusual case, but his True Power usage in my oppinion... wouldnt that technically mean he is on Chosen level, doesnt his merge with Moridin in some way make Rand one of the Chosen? But of course, Rand and Moridins threads are drawn to each other, that is SUPPOSED to happen...

 

What Im getting at is, what if Taim was a Ta'veren that is SUPPOSED to go Dark, to fulfill some role for the Light on a subconscious level?

[ineedfourberfs]

I think to answer this question, you have to look at what a Darkfriend Taim brings to keep the pattern alive.

 

Initial thouht is not much, but perhaps the pattern needed him to make the BT do what it does, to support Rand in the LB?

 

It's a stretch, but there you go.

[Ashandarei]

 

It doesn't happen at birth

 

Means nothing. Completely irrelevent.

 

It's gained at some point in life because the Pattern requires it. If they go DF then that doesn't serve the needs of the Pattern and so the person would probably lose that quality. So I'd argue that if Taim was a ta'veren originally(which I don't think he was) he'd lose the ta'veren-ness soon after he first went DF.

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

 

Quote Link

 

Again, the quote doesnt address what Im saying. When someone becomes a Ta#veren has nothing to do with any of this. Try not to put words in my mouth please!

 

I apologize, I didn't mean to imply that you said anything about being ta'veren from birth. I included the quote and mentioned it because it was pertinent to my comment that the Pattern makes people ta'veren later and that it is not a permanent thing, as one might think if they assume it is present from birth. That lead to my point that that ability/aspect can be lost as well as gained. Please try to understand the full argument before you dismiss something as irrelevant.

 

I think to answer this question, you have to look at what a Darkfriend Taim brings to keep the pattern alive.

 

Initial thouht is not much, but perhaps the pattern needed him to make the BT do what it does, to support Rand in the LB?

 

It's a stretch, but there you go.

 

As INeedFourBerfs mentions and as you(DrekkaMort) mentioned previously, maybe the Pattern needed Taim to assemble the Ashaman and build the BT. But I don't see why it couldn't use Logain to do the job while avoiding the terrible bloodshed(in terms of the Pattern- loss of Light-siders to fight the DO) that is going to occur to oust Taim in AMoL. It could have pulled Logain to the right place at the right time if it needed to after all.

[OptimusPrime]

That could be the case, it could even be that Taim is just a power hungry Ta'veren with a bad attitude, but I think there are too many Darkfriend references for just that. I think (assuming he isnt Moridin, dont forget!) that Taim has some bigger purpose than just upping the numbers on both sides.

 

How about this. Slayer isnt dead yet and Luc hasnt fulfilled any sort of role yet. What if someone figures out how to do the opposite of a 13x13 on him, finds some weave that could then be used on all the 13x13 DF Ashaman? Suddenly a Ta'veren-gone-Dark Taim gave something back to society...

 

@ashandarei, understood my friend, peachy. Let me clarify, Im investigating the idea that Taim became Ta'veren shortly before or even during Lord of Chaos, then went Darkfriend.

[MasterAblar]

Logain doesnt even believe Rand Cleansed saidin, why would he run to Rand just to say there another Ta'veren on the scene? And does Logain even know what his Talent means?

 

Well he ran to tell Rand that Taim is a darkfriend and that he is turning the BT against him so telling Rand at the same time that he has noticed that Taim has the ta'veren glow is rather probable. I don't see how believing Rand about the cleansing matters.

 

When Logain saw Rand in Caemelyn he laughed because he knew that he would cause much more damage then he did. So he knows on some level what the glow means. And by now he should now that Rand is ta'veren. Logain is smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.

[OptimusPrime]

A point against Logain being the one for the job is that he needed to be gentled so Nynaeve could discover the Healing weave for that. Bad timing for him

[OptimusPrime]

Logain doesnt even believe Rand Cleansed saidin, why would he run to Rand just to say there another Ta'veren on the scene? And does Logain even know what his Talent means?

 

Well he ran to tell Rand that Taim is a darkfriend and that he is turning the BT against him so telling Rand at the same time that he has noticed that Taim has the ta'veren glow is rather probable. I don't see how believing Rand about the cleansing matters.

 

When Logain saw Rand in Caemelyn he laughed because he knew that he would cause much more damage then he did. So he has knows on some level what the glow means. And by now he should now that Rand is ta'veren. Logain is smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Ah, but. Look at it like this. If Logain said to Rand "Taims evil, by the way hes Ta'veren" Id say Rands reaction would be similar to the original reaction of this thread. "Possible, but unlikely." Rand would have none of it because when Logain went to him he was a blind jackass, Logain mentioning evil Ta'veren would have made Rand disagree even harder

[MasterAblar]

Logain doesnt even believe Rand Cleansed saidin, why would he run to Rand just to say there another Ta'veren on the scene? And does Logain even know what his Talent means?

 

Well he ran to tell Rand that Taim is a darkfriend and that he is turning the BT against him so telling Rand at the same time that he has noticed that Taim has the ta'veren glow is rather probable. I don't see how believing Rand about the cleansing matters.

 

When Logain saw Rand in Caemelyn he laughed because he knew that he would cause much more damage then he did. So he has knows on some level what the glow means. And by now he should now that Rand is ta'veren. Logain is smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Ah, but. Look at it like this. If Logain said to Rand "Taims evil, by the way hes Ta'veren" Id say Rands reaction would be similar to the original reaction of this thread. "Possible, but unlikely." Rand would have none of it because when Logain went to him he was a blind jackass, Logain mentioning evil Ta'veren would have made Rand disagree even harder

 

Our discussion on this thread doesn't carry any risks unlike Logain leaving very important information out of what he tells Rand. If Logain is dead set against Taim then he should tell Rand whatever he knows, despite Rand possibly reacting with disbelief. Also Logain doesn't have any solid evidence that Taim is a darkfriend, but the glow of a darkfriend is pretty good evidence of being ta'veren, so as long as Rand does not believe that Logain has gone mad or is lying to him, then it's conclusive evidence. And Logain lying about someone being ta'veren is too preposterous to be a lie, sort of like how Rand claims to be from the TR even though he doesn't have the look at all. No one would tell a lie so absurd.

[OptimusPrime]

No I dont mean that Rand would percieve it as a lie, but just a contradiction. Rand would be like "So you're WARNING me about a nasty Ta'veren? A Ta'veren is a Ta'veren." So what Im saying is that Logain would have deliberately left Taim being Ta'veren out of the plea to Rand, for fear of Rand dismissing it (and Rand dismissed it anyway the fool!)

[MasterAblar]

No I dont mean that Rand would percieve it as a lie, but just a contradiction. Rand would be like "So you're WARNING me about a nasty Ta'veren? A Ta'veren is a Ta'veren." So what Im saying is that Logain would have deliberately left Taim being Ta'veren out of the plea to Rand, for fear of Rand dismissing it (and Rand dismissed it anyway the fool!)

 

It would seem like a contradiction true, and yes it would make his claim that Taim is a darkfriend weaker, but in this case he would be leaving out a HUGE piece of information, so even if it's going to make his first claim seem unlikely, it still must be mentioned. Since he believes Taim serves the shadow, and Logain definitely serves the light, than he would be a great fool to leave such a piece of information out of what he tells Rand. The risks are too high if he does not mention it.

 

Of course Rand is still a fool to dismiss what Logain says, even if he does not have much reason to trust Taim.

[ineedfourberfs]

Alternate whacked out theory:

 

Dark Ta'veren? A Ta'veren perverted by the Dark One to break the threads and rules and order of the Pattern around them, IE Let the Lord of Chaos Rule?

[OptimusPrime]

I think that would equate to Taim having been 13x13d though, I doubt that he was. Im of the belief that everything the Dark One does can be reversed, I dont think a 13x13d channeler would be given too much responsibility if Im honest because I reckon all it takes is a single weave to being them back. Too easy to lose.

[TheAngryDruid]

I have a much different take than the OP on the Dark Aura, I don't think it has to manifest when the TP is being channeled at the same moment, it just tends to manifest around those that have touched the DO directly and are becoming infected/touched by him (turning to Shadow). Maybe being annointed by the Shadow (na'blis) is also a requirement, and Rand started manifesting not only (or at all?) because of the TP use, but due to his insanity, his link to Moridin, and his turning to Shadow.

 

Moridin is the only other person, besides Taim and Rand, we've seen manifest a Dark Aura. And of course, we know he's linked to Rand, and possibly to Taim as well. If it is manifestation of using the TP solely, then Taim shouldn't manifest it, because, presumably, he's never touched the TP (unless he is Moridin). If he's NOT Moridin, then either Taim is using the TP in secret, unbeknownst to the likes of Graendal, or there is some other way to manifest a Dark Aura.

[wvlr2]

Thoughts?

 

I see where you are going on this - I do not agree per se, but the fact is the Pattern uses - Everything - to accomplish its end.

 

Especially I have noticed that it (Pattern) seems to use everything that the DO does to do something.

 

The DOs taint on Saidin - used to create Rand/LT

 

Bubbles of Evil - used to delay Perin & crew so they did not fall into the Trap.

 

SL - provided way for Rand to Clense sadin.

 

The Taint on the Ways - has eaten hundreds of thousands of Trollocks and Fades.

 

Ishy/Mordin used to train Rand and then used give Rand connection to the True power.

 

Elaida - used to keep rand away from the AS until he was ready.

[benny the ball]

I get what Drek's saying. The way i see it is that even a DF can help the patten out unwittingly. maybe Taim need to do something so something is affected on behalf of the pattern. Just because Taim's a so say bad guy ( but is he??? ) doesn't mean he can't do something for the good. Take Rand durring VoG. In theory he's the best of the good and he nearly killed eveyone.

 

Sorry about spelling need to clean my keyboad and jab evety button extra hard

[Muad Cheade]

I find it very hard to believe that Taim is a Darkfriend simply because light was thought to be dimmer in his presence.

I also believe Logain would have made some note of this as he did when he recalled seeing Rand in Caemlyn. And like TheAngryDruid said, dark auras seem related to usage of the True Power.

[OptimusPrime]

Thoughts?

 

I see where you are going on this - I do not agree per se, but the fact is the Pattern uses - Everything - to accomplish its end.

 

Exactly. Im not sure I agree with many of the examples you provided, but Moridin I definitely agree with, I really think that guy is destined to help Rand at least once more, even though it pains me to say it. I think the fact that Rand and Ishamaels threads are drawn to each other heavily supports this; this time, the guy is Nae'blis and the height of evil in humanity, yet already he has his reasons to want Rand alive. I think the balefire crossing incedent is an example of Moridin being used by the Pattern.

 

Not to mention Fain. I think sometimes the Wheel intends things to go off the rails, and Fain-and indeed the existence of the Shadar Logoth force of evil-fall into that category.