LT instead of Rand

[Cyrus_OLeary]

Hello,

This thought has been lurking around in my mind for a while and after getting fed up with the search thing I decided to just see what people thought. The theory is this; instead of Rand dying LT dies (goes out of his head or something). I have noticed a fair amount of what LT says in Rand's head involves dying and additionaly Aliva ( I think that was her ) said something about helping Rand to die. This puzzles me because it always seemed to me that Rand seemed ready to die when the time came. There were some other things that I forgot but other then this it is mostly conjecture.

 

Thoughts?

[Evoke]

What I believe it means is that in order to ever be reborn again, and thus "live again" he would have to die now.

[OptimusPrime]

The way I see it, Lews Therin cant be the one who dies because Lews Therin now exists as Rand. They are not seperate people, they are two versions of one dude; Lewis died, was reborn as Rand. They are not two people, so Lewis cant die in Rands place, because that would be like saying Rand must die in Rands place. The one inside Rands head isnt real, its a construct Rand made to explain the memories, but because Rand WAS Lews Therin in the AoL, the voice has more similarities to what Lews Therin really was like than, say, the voices in the heads of those male channelers Cadsuane mentioned having dealt with.

 

How about this. "To live YOU must die" is obviously the point of the question. Moridin and Rand are merging. How exactly? I think their threads are becoming one. I reckon when the Finns said to Rand to live you must die, they will have been seeing Rand connected to Moridin via their threads and for all intents and purposes will have seen them as one person. So when they say "To live YOU must die" I think the YOU part includes Moridin. In other words, if Rand wants to live, he has to sacrifice Moridin in his place, this being possible because Rand and Moridin are becoming a part of each other.

[yoniy0]

@Cyrus_OLeary, do you mind telling us which books you've read? As the story progresses, we get more and more insight into LTT's voice in Rand's mind, and I wouldn't want to spoil you by mistake.

[Cyrus_OLeary]

I have read up to TGS and am currently re-reading up to the COT, i had not heard that theory about moridin befor and it does make sense, and now that I think about it it does seem as if they are merging. but what would happen to the bodies if moridins and rand's thread's merged?

[yoniy0]

Well, then, I have to say I support @Drekka Mort's position, that LTT isn't a distinct being which Rand hears, but rather a manifestation of his own inner concerns and fears, given voice in his mind based on memory seepage from his last life. Rand now believes the same, as of Veins of Gold.

[OptimusPrime]

I have read up to TGS and am currently re-reading up to the COT, i had not heard that theory about moridin befor and it does make sense, and now that I think about it it does seem as if they are merging. but what would happen to the bodies if moridins and rand's thread's merged?

 

It relates to the Bodyswap. When Rand notes that "if either moves a hairswidth they will touch" it means some sort of transferal is possble I think, which could end up making them switch bodies. I also wonder if Moridin died and Rand didnt, Moridin couldnt be reincarnated because their threads are connected.

[mb]

To me it is neither Lews Therin or Moridin. Moridin was not around when Rand received the answer.

 

Rand and Moridin do share a kind of bond. But I am not sure about them merging.

As far as I am aware, the author neither confirmed or denied the merge or body swap.

[DragonGen]

I always thought it would be that old chestnut of 'dying' i.e. heart stops beating/stop breathing/however they check it. Only to be amazingly resuscitated moments afterward! Cue gasps and wonder from his followers.

 

I am hoping this is not true, though, as it is too lame. Even if it does mean Rand dies for real.

[tottelott]

I wouldn't be totally surprised if a certain Aes Sedai, which is usually firmly against the use of Balefire, uses the B-bomb in the event of Rand's death, bringing our hero back to life in the process. Probably won't be right though, as I'm guessing Rand would never have died if he's "brought back" with Balefire. :)

 

Hi btw, I'm a noob here.

[mb]

Rand being brought back by balefire might work. Robert Jordan confirmed that the Aelfinn prophecy of Mat dying and living again was fulfilled in the Rahvin hunt.

 

Though Rand's killer would need to be someone/something that is "safe" to be balefired.

[yoniy0]

Robert Jordan confirmed that the Aelfinn prophecy of Mat dying and living again was fulfilled in the Rahvin hunt.

Did he? I thought he just said it has been fulfilled by that time, meaning it could either be that or his Rhuidean adventure.

[mb]

This page mentions it::

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/75

[Luckers]

I support the bodyswap, and the next most likely to my mind is the 'ripped-out-of-TAR' concept. That being said just looking purely at this idea--it can't work. I do hold that Lews Therin was a seperate (real) facet personality which has now been intergrated with Rand as per Semirhage's statements about how to resolve such a difference--but whether you believe LTT was real or a construct made from his emotional problems, it makes little difference. Rand and LTT are the same soul either way, and RJ has stated souls cannot be split.

 

As such one aspect of that soul cannot die--it would be severing it from the other aspect. Splitting the soul--which is impossible.

 

So yes, if your a constructionist then LTT wasn't real and this cannot die. If you're a realist LTT is a part of Rand's soul and thus cannot die as that would be splitting the soul which RJ has said is impossible.

[yoniy0]

Boss, tell me this. How big of a lough did you have when you came up with the idea of calling folks constructionists, which in turn allows you to refer to yourself as a realist?

[Terez]

How about this. "To live YOU must die" is obviously the point of the question. Moridin and Rand are merging. How exactly? I think their threads are becoming one. I reckon when the Finns said to Rand to live you must die, they will have been seeing Rand connected to Moridin via their threads and for all intents and purposes will have seen them as one person. So when they say "To live YOU must die" I think the YOU part includes Moridin. In other words, if Rand wants to live, he has to sacrifice Moridin in his place, this being possible because Rand and Moridin are becoming a part of each other.

This might work if you took only the one prophecy into consideration and not the others. Maybe. But it's still a pretty cheap interpretation, especially from a literary perspective.

[Rasko]

Boss, tell me this. How big of a lough did you have when you came up with the idea of calling folks constructionists, which in turn allows you to refer to yourself as a realist?

 

I would call him an idealist...

[Wantanswers]

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

 

This quotation give us an other option; one I have never seen mentioned:

Rand will live, the Dragon dies.

[Terez]

Rand is the Dragon soul just as much as he is Lews Therin. More, you might say. So I'm not sure why you think that gives us another option.

[OptimusPrime]

How about this. "To live YOU must die" is obviously the point of the question. Moridin and Rand are merging. How exactly? I think their threads are becoming one. I reckon when the Finns said to Rand to live you must die, they will have been seeing Rand connected to Moridin via their threads and for all intents and purposes will have seen them as one person. So when they say "To live YOU must die" I think the YOU part includes Moridin. In other words, if Rand wants to live, he has to sacrifice Moridin in his place, this being possible because Rand and Moridin are becoming a part of each other.

This might work if you took only the one prophecy into consideration and not the others. Maybe. But it's still a pretty cheap interpretation, especially from a literary perspective.

 

Not really, this would only be a small part of what happens. I think them becoming one person is what leads onto the bodyswap being possible, and that hits a lot of the bulletpoints

[Luckers]

Boss, tell me this. How big of a lough did you have when you came up with the idea of calling folks constructionists, which in turn allows you to refer to yourself as a realist?

 

A fairly big one, actually, thought I didn't come up with the phrase 'constructionist'. That was all them, I just used it to its best advantage.

 

It's even more funny when you take into account the origins of the the construct theory. Constructionists indeed. But that's a different argument.

[Dream]

Boss, tell me this. How big of a lough did you have when you came up with the idea of calling folks constructionists, which in turn allows you to refer to yourself as a realist?

 

A fairly big one, actually, thought I didn't come up with the phrase 'constructionist'. That was all them, I just used it to its best advantage.

 

It's even more funny when you take into account the origins of the the construct theory. Constructionists indeed. But that's a different argument.

 

Yeah, it has always bothered me how the titles were a bit biased.

 

Constructionist vs. Realist

 

Who wouldn't want to be a realist? Not to mention how confusing it could be since many "constructionists" consider the Voice "real" in that it was the voice of a real person--Rand/LTT.

 

In honor of Lucker's facet personality explanation, and to make the titles more clear and impartial, I think we should rename the sides to:

 

Constructionist vs. Facetist

 

 

 

 

 

(teeheehee)

[yoniy0]

That was all them

I'm one myself, and proud of it (though I wasn't around to witness the argument's birth). It should be clear to all but the most casual observer that we're right. I don't know what y'all were smoking when you came up with the other theory.

[Luckers]

Boss, tell me this. How big of a lough did you have when you came up with the idea of calling folks constructionists, which in turn allows you to refer to yourself as a realist?

 

A fairly big one, actually, thought I didn't come up with the phrase 'constructionist'. That was all them, I just used it to its best advantage.

 

It's even more funny when you take into account the origins of the the construct theory. Constructionists indeed. But that's a different argument.

 

Yeah, it has always bothered me how the titles were a bit biased.

 

Constructionist vs. Realist

 

Who wouldn't want to be a realist? Not to mention how confusing it could be since many "constructionists" consider the Voice "real" in that it was the voice of a real person--Rand/LTT.

 

In honor of Lucker's facet personality explanation, and to make the titles more clear and impartial, I think we should rename the sides to:

 

Constructionist vs. Facetist

 

 

 

 

 

(teeheehee)

 

Alright, we'll be the Facetists (sidenote, I originally read that as facetits, which may serve your purpose even better), but in honour of the cobbled together nature of the construct theory, I think you deserve a new title also. How bout the Ooogedyboogedyists?

 

:D

 

I'm one myself, and proud of it (though I wasn't around to witness the argument's birth). It should be clear to all but the most casual observer that we're right. I don't know what y'all were smoking when you came up with the other theory.

 

Bah! The Construct Theory is an antiquated belief system resulting from the miconception that the manifestation of Lews Therin's real personality could not be a form of madness, as madness is delusion and delusion is not real. The Construct existed singularily to make a bridge between this misconception and the fact that Lews Therin's memories were evidently real, allowing for the manifestation to be both a taint-created insanity, and be correct.

 

KoD, like the sweet rays of reason, introduced to us the knowledge that the manifestation of a past life's personality is a natural form of madness within the wheel--and as a natural form of madness, completely viable as a taint manifestation, requiring no elaborate psychological constructions on Rand's part. It makes sense just as it is

 

From there the Construct Theory is merely a group of hobbled together quotes which can be interpreted either way. The 'they weren't two men' quote, as if Lews Therin being real made him a different man, or you find where Lews Therin expresses a thought Rand is angsty about and go 'uh ha! See!' as if transferral of feelings between the two weren't well established.

 

Bah, I say. And Codswallop. The Theory lost its basis with KoD, and now clings with desperate tenaciouness to the minds and hearts of men, draining them dry and leaving facsimilies of pride and logic.

 

 

 

Post script: For those who don't know, Yoniy0 and I are good friends, and the irritated dismissiveness of the above is a joke between us. :D

[Terez]

I'm one myself, and proud of it (though I wasn't around to witness the argument's birth). It should be clear to all but the most casual observer that we're right. I don't know what y'all were smoking when you came up with the other theory.

 

Bah! The Construct Theory is an antiquated belief system resulting from the miconception that the manifestation of Lews Therin's real personality could not be a form of madness, as madness is delusion and delusion is not real.

This just isn't true. It's your perception of what went down. The construct camp was always very careful to communicate which parts were real and which weren't. It was the real'ers who were the all-or-nothing type for the most part. I feel like the arguments on Theoryland were most confused before I got there, but the actual origin of the debate was on the Usenet group, and there was not nearly as much confusion there.

 

The Construct existed singularily to make a bridge between this misconception and the fact that Lews Therin's memories were evidently real, allowing for the manifestation to be both a taint-created insanity, and be correct.

The delusion was not merely taint-created; it also had a great deal to do with Rand's motives to disassociate himself from his past life memories.

 

KoD, like the sweet rays of reason, introduced to us the knowledge that the manifestation of a past life's personality is a natural form of madness within the wheel--and as a natural form of madness, completely viable as a taint manifestation, requiring no elaborate psychological constructions on Rand's part. It makes sense just as it is

You're assuming that the others suffering from past life memories would not have similar motives. Of course, their motives would probably not be as strong as Rand's, but neither would their certainty about those memories be as strong. Rand has constant reminders of the fact that his memories are real, but he still denies them.

 

From there the Construct Theory is merely a group of hobbled together quotes which can be interpreted either way.

You could say the same about the real theory, or your own theory, which is quite different from what real'ers have argued over the years. But the proof of the construct theory was in the fact that Rand had to stop denying that Lews Therin's memories were his own memories before those memories could be fully integrated. That shows clearly (despite the tons of hints previous) that the denial was a significant part of the delusion.

 

The 'they weren't two men' quote, as if Lews Therin being real made him a different man, or you find where Lews Therin expresses a thought Rand is angsty about and go 'uh ha! See!' as if transferral of feelings between the two weren't well established.

Just the concept of 'transferral' is against the concept that they were never two men.