Aemon & Eldrene

[peregrine]

I have to respectfully but passionately disagree! The WOT guide sheds more light on this. It's true that Mat bears memories (his own memories, not those from the Finns) from the time of Manetheren's fall, but his battle cry "For the honor of the the Rose of the Sun" was the battle cry of Aemon's Heart Guard (appropriately named the Band of the Red Hand), which honors Eldrene as the Queen. His memories are of leading the heart guard into battle at the fall -- of trying to protect the king. I suppose it is possible that he was a relative of Aemon's, but there is no reason to think he is a descendent. If he is reborn, it is not as Aemon but as a general. I am also under the impression the entire royal family was killed in battle, and there are no remaining descendents of Manetheren royalty.

 

I always felt like the fact that Mat both had his own memories as a general reborn and has memories from the Finns was an awkward plot inconsistency. I've always suspected Jordan knew he wanted Mat to become a Great Captain but didn't come up with the Finns until he'd already written the first book (and realized that being a reborn general just wasn't going to cut it in the 'epic' department). So I've always been cautious about reading more into it.

 

On the note of Mat's memories, I seem to recall something but could be making it up and can't find the source anywhere (I don't have the WOT guide on me, if it's in there) ... I thought Jack of the Shadows was sung by Culain's men (Culain being the general from Aldeshar that died at Hawking's hand during the Consolidation). Something about the Golden Lions roaring the song in defiance during their final charge. If anyone can confirm any of this, please let me know. I may just have an overactive imagination. Or perhaps I'm mixing two different memories up.

 

 

 

I will now respectfully but passionately disagree in turn.

Aemon was General of all Manetheren forces, with the Heartguard/Band of the Red Hand his own personal army, an elite wing that was put to use where the fighting was hottest.

In Mat's memory he is not just A General of the Heartguard, he is THE General of the entire army.

If you re-read it from chpt 19 tDR, he is clearly in command of the entire army not just part and the battle was definitely Manetheren's last stand which we all know took place where Emond's Field stands today which was originally called Aemon's Field because that is where he died.

 

Whether he is actually Aemon reborn is up in the air and just theory but, as BS put it, there is at the very least a very strong implication of Mat's Bloodline.

 

I agree with you that whoever Mat was then (or remembers being), he commanded the Heart Guard, and thus effectively the entire army. I suppose I just think of kings and generals as two very separate entities -- kings have duties to their people and aren't as likely to seek out or head up battles with the dark one on foreign land (Aemon would of course fight at the fall of Manetheren, but the Band was 'not in town' per se when the trollocs attacked. Then again, this was the Trolloc wars ... perhaps I should view kings as less like the Andorans and more like the Borderlanders). Mat says in that memory that he is known as a gambler, which doesn't mesh well with my concept of Aemon as a strong, stable king. Do you know of a source that says Aemon directly commanded the Heart Guard himself? I also seem to recall a memory he has of being betrayed at the banks of the Tarendelle (I don't believe his identity in that memory is ever mentioned). If I can find that memory, it might shed more light on this.

[Finnssss22]

I have to respectfully but passionately disagree! The WOT guide sheds more light on this. It's true that Mat bears memories (his own memories, not those from the Finns) from the time of Manetheren's fall, but his battle cry "For the honor of the the Rose of the Sun" was the battle cry of Aemon's Heart Guard (appropriately named the Band of the Red Hand), which honors Eldrene as the Queen. His memories are of leading the heart guard into battle at the fall -- of trying to protect the king. I suppose it is possible that he was a relative of Aemon's, but there is no reason to think he is a descendent. If he is reborn, it is not as Aemon but as a general. I am also under the impression the entire royal family was killed in battle, and there are no remaining descendents of Manetheren royalty.

 

I always felt like the fact that Mat both had his own memories as a general reborn and has memories from the Finns was an awkward plot inconsistency. I've always suspected Jordan knew he wanted Mat to become a Great Captain but didn't come up with the Finns until he'd already written the first book (and realized that being a reborn general just wasn't going to cut it in the 'epic' department). So I've always been cautious about reading more into it.

 

On the note of Mat's memories, I seem to recall something but could be making it up and can't find the source anywhere (I don't have the WOT guide on me, if it's in there) ... I thought Jack of the Shadows was sung by Culain's men (Culain being the general from Aldeshar that died at Hawking's hand during the Consolidation). Something about the Golden Lions roaring the song in defiance during their final charge. If anyone can confirm any of this, please let me know. I may just have an overactive imagination. Or perhaps I'm mixing two different memories up.

 

 

 

I will now respectfully but passionately disagree in turn.

Aemon was General of all Manetheren forces, with the Heartguard/Band of the Red Hand his own personal army, an elite wing that was put to use where the fighting was hottest.

In Mat's memory he is not just A General of the Heartguard, he is THE General of the entire army.

If you re-read it from chpt 19 tDR, he is clearly in command of the entire army not just part and the battle was definitely Manetheren's last stand which we all know took place where Emond's Field stands today which was originally called Aemon's Field because that is where he died.

 

Whether he is actually Aemon reborn is up in the air and just theory but, as BS put it, there is at the very least a very strong implication of Mat's Bloodline.

 

I agree with you that whoever Mat was then (or remembers being), he commanded the Heart Guard, and thus effectively the entire army. I suppose I just think of kings and generals as two very separate entities -- kings have duties to their people and aren't as likely to seek out or head up battles with the dark one on foreign land (Aemon would of course fight at the fall of Manetheren, but the Band was 'not in town' per se when the trollocs attacked. Then again, this was the Trolloc wars ... perhaps I should view kings as less like the Andorans and more like the Borderlanders). Mat says in that memory that he is known as a gambler, which doesn't mesh well with my concept of Aemon as a strong, stable king. Do you know of a source that says Aemon directly commanded the Heart Guard himself? I also seem to recall a memory he has of being betrayed at the banks of the Tarendelle (I don't believe his identity in that memory is ever mentioned). If I can find that memory, it might shed more light on this.

 

 

No direct source no but it's the only thing that makes sense. You forget that Aemon was not just King of Manetheren, he was the Warder King General.

Aemon would be the only one having a personal bannerman flying the Red Eagle in that battle.

 

The memory you speak of was after going to Rhuidean in tSR chpt 37.

He was a counselor to Buiryn, who was ruler of Manetheren before the Trolloc Wars. He remembers Buiryn being tricked by King Aedomon of Safer(modern day Almoth Plain and Toman Head) at Midean's Ford.

Mat then remembers a fragment, watching a much older King Aedomon killed by a beardless boy with a spear. Note he is not King Aedomon nor the beardless boy in that second memory fragment.

[peregrine]

I have to respectfully but passionately disagree! The WOT guide sheds more light on this. It's true that Mat bears memories (his own memories, not those from the Finns) from the time of Manetheren's fall, but his battle cry "For the honor of the the Rose of the Sun" was the battle cry of Aemon's Heart Guard (appropriately named the Band of the Red Hand), which honors Eldrene as the Queen. His memories are of leading the heart guard into battle at the fall -- of trying to protect the king. I suppose it is possible that he was a relative of Aemon's, but there is no reason to think he is a descendent. If he is reborn, it is not as Aemon but as a general. I am also under the impression the entire royal family was killed in battle, and there are no remaining descendents of Manetheren royalty.

 

I always felt like the fact that Mat both had his own memories as a general reborn and has memories from the Finns was an awkward plot inconsistency. I've always suspected Jordan knew he wanted Mat to become a Great Captain but didn't come up with the Finns until he'd already written the first book (and realized that being a reborn general just wasn't going to cut it in the 'epic' department). So I've always been cautious about reading more into it.

 

On the note of Mat's memories, I seem to recall something but could be making it up and can't find the source anywhere (I don't have the WOT guide on me, if it's in there) ... I thought Jack of the Shadows was sung by Culain's men (Culain being the general from Aldeshar that died at Hawking's hand during the Consolidation). Something about the Golden Lions roaring the song in defiance during their final charge. If anyone can confirm any of this, please let me know. I may just have an overactive imagination. Or perhaps I'm mixing two different memories up.

 

 

 

I will now respectfully but passionately disagree in turn.

Aemon was General of all Manetheren forces, with the Heartguard/Band of the Red Hand his own personal army, an elite wing that was put to use where the fighting was hottest.

In Mat's memory he is not just A General of the Heartguard, he is THE General of the entire army.

If you re-read it from chpt 19 tDR, he is clearly in command of the entire army not just part and the battle was definitely Manetheren's last stand which we all know took place where Emond's Field stands today which was originally called Aemon's Field because that is where he died.

 

Whether he is actually Aemon reborn is up in the air and just theory but, as BS put it, there is at the very least a very strong implication of Mat's Bloodline.

 

I agree with you that whoever Mat was then (or remembers being), he commanded the Heart Guard, and thus effectively the entire army. I suppose I just think of kings and generals as two very separate entities -- kings have duties to their people and aren't as likely to seek out or head up battles with the dark one on foreign land (Aemon would of course fight at the fall of Manetheren, but the Band was 'not in town' per se when the trollocs attacked. Then again, this was the Trolloc wars ... perhaps I should view kings as less like the Andorans and more like the Borderlanders). Mat says in that memory that he is known as a gambler, which doesn't mesh well with my concept of Aemon as a strong, stable king. Do you know of a source that says Aemon directly commanded the Heart Guard himself? I also seem to recall a memory he has of being betrayed at the banks of the Tarendelle (I don't believe his identity in that memory is ever mentioned). If I can find that memory, it might shed more light on this.

 

 

No direct source no but it's the only thing that makes sense. You forget that Aemon was not just King of Manetheren, he was the Warder King General.

Aemon would be the only one having a personal bannerman flying the Red Eagle in that battle.

 

The memory you speak of was after going to Rhuidean in tSR chpt 37.

He was a counselor to Buiryn, who was ruler of Manetheren before the Trolloc Wars. He remembers Buiryn being tricked by King Aedomon of Safer(modern day Almoth Plain and Toman Head) at Midean's Ford.

Mat then remembers a fragment, watching a much older King Aedomon killed by a beardless boy with a spear. Note he is not King Aedomon nor the beardless boy in that second memory fragment.

 

Brilliant! Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for. Very suggestive -- "But forces too great to overpower swept in around them, trapping them, driving them ever in on themselves. Surrounding their king and the Red Eagle banner ..." Combined with Mat's statement from chapter 19 of tDR, where he states his bannerman followed him into the battle ... I take your point. Huh. Looks like Mat's memories are probably Aemon's after all! I stand corrected.

Very interesting. Thanks for the references.

[yoniy0]

Aemon would be the only one having a personal bannerman flying the Red Eagle in that battle.

Well, actually, a King still has his personal banner, which isn't the same as the flag of his nation. For example, Elayne still flies the lily, next to the Lion of Andor (and she did so in battles, as you'll recall). Hence, the whole thing gets murkier. Still, I agree that the Red Eagle is probably a referrence to the flag of Manetheren (it could naturally be some sort of variation, in the family flag of a descendent of the founding House, but whatever).

 

Note he is not King Aedomon nor the beardless boy in that second memory fragment.

Hmm, you don't know that. The wording was very vague. Still, it has no bearing on this issue, since we know how he came to possess the 'finn's memories, and it has nothing to do with his soul or his bloodline.

[Finnssss22]

Well, actually, a King still has his personal banner, which isn't the same as the flag of his nation. For example, Elayne still flies the lily, next to the Lion of Andor (and she did so in battles, as you'll recall). Hence, the whole thing gets murkier. Still, I agree that the Red Eagle is probably a referrence to the flag of Manetheren (it could naturally be some sort of variation, in the family flag of a descendent of the founding House, but whatever).

 

Each piece on it's own might be murky but when added together it's pretty clear and obvious.

Either way, there are only two possibilities, he is either Aemon reborn or he is a direct blood decendant.

 

From BS's twitter from about a month ago, Jan 6th 2011...

 

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

 

This all but confirms it was indeed Aemon's memory and at the very least Mat is of his bloodline. He just won't confirm whether he is actually Aemon reborn nor would we expect him too heh.

 

 

Hmm, you don't know that. The wording was very vague. Still, it has no bearing on this issue, since we know how he came to possess the 'finn's memories, and it has nothing to do with his soul or his bloodline.

 

Actually, if you take note of his memories he never "sees" himself, only what he sees through their eyes. "Seeing" the old King being killed by a beardless boy during a minor battle in a wooded area is viewed in the third person. Re-read the chapter and you'll see the context I mean.

[yoniy0]

From BS's twitter from about a month ago, Jan 6th 2011...

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

This all but confirms it was indeed Aemon's memory and at the very least Mat is of his bloodline. He just won't confirm whether he is actually Aemon reborn nor would we expect him too heh.

Okay, I agree that's Brandon's response pretty much confirms that Mat's bloodline is Aemon's (whether or not he's a direct descendant is a different question).

 

Actually, if you take note of his memories he never "sees" himself, only what he sees through their eyes. "Seeing" the old King being killed by a beardless boy during a minor battle in a wooded area is viewed in the third person. Re-read the chapter and you'll see the context I mean.

You don't think I read the relevant paragraph before posting? It's mentioned that Mat sees King Aedomon, therefore he's not Aedomon in that memory, but the boy's a different story. I maintain that the phrasing could be understood as Mat being the boy.

[Finnssss22]

 

Okay, I agree that's Brandon's response pretty much confirms that Mat's bloodline is Aemon's (whether or not he's a direct descendent is a different question).

 

Do you mean whether or not Mat is Aemon reborn?

Because bloodline and direct descendant are the same thing.

 

 

 

You don't think I read the relevant paragraph before posting? It's mentioned that Mat sees King Aedomon, therefore he's not Aedomon in that memory, but the boy's a different story. I maintain that the phrasing could be understood as Mat being the boy.

 

Yep, fair enough.

[yoniy0]

Do you mean whether or not Mat is Aemon reborn?

Because bloodline and direct descendant are the same thing.

No, I meant he might be Aemon's father's little brother's descendant. Is bloodline not the correct word here?

[Terez]

From BS's twitter from about a month ago, Jan 6th 2011...

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

This all but confirms it was indeed Aemon's memory and at the very least Mat is of his bloodline. He just won't confirm whether he is actually Aemon reborn nor would we expect him too heh.

Okay, I agree that's Brandon's response pretty much confirms that Mat's bloodline is Aemon's (whether or not he's a direct descendent is a different question).

I am not so sure. I think it implies that Mat is either 1) Aemon reborn or 2) descended from Aemon. The implication is that he is descended from Aemon, and that his memories are an Old Blood phenomenon, but if that's the case, then it was particularly strong in Mat. Of course, speaking against the idea that he is Aemon reborn is the fact that people usually aren't reborn in the same geographic location (or at least, it's not a standard correlation from what we know).

 

Actually, if you take note of his memories he never "sees" himself, only what he sees through their eyes. "Seeing" the old King being killed by a beardless boy during a minor battle in a wooded area is viewed in the third person. Re-read the chapter and you'll see the context I mean.

You don't think I read the relevant paragraph before posting?

[Tollieman]

Well, since we can't be sure, I hope Mat is 'just' a descendent, and not Aemon himself. I really don't want Mat's awesomeness to be because he's a reborn awesome person.

 

Let him be awesome, all on his own. Same as Perrin.

[Terez]

That makes no sense. If he is Aemon reborn, then you could just as easily say that Aemon was only awesome because he was Mat. And that's aside from the fact that Mat is mostly awesome because of his 'Finn memories, which aren't his in any real way...not to mention being ta'veren, and just lucky.

[Simo]

Simo, do you mind clarifying whether you meant Aemon and Eldrene reborn (in the poll, that is)?

Done.

 

The reasoning for my theory comes largely from from Moiraines Telling of Manetheran, where she states "...a love that death could not sunder"

 

If Mat is Aemon then Tuon is definitely Eldrene.

 

You could say that Hawkwing did know Mat & Perrin acknowledging them as Hornblower & Bannerman but that Rand being the Dragon reborn was a more important person, they are preparing for battle.

 

But then it's anybodies guess.

 

I have often wondered if Perrin is Two Rivers blood being a wolfbrother, He could be a foundling like Rand, but thats just an offhand theory.

[BareUpperLip79]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

When BS was asked recently about Mat being Aemon, he wouldn't confirm anything of course saying something along the lines of it's possible but the main implication is to Mat's bloodline.

Mat is a direct descendant of Aemon, his vision/memory upon awakening from his healing from the Dagger showed us this a long time ago.

 

After much debate, I don't know if I believe that he truly is Aemon reborn but IF he is, then Tuon IS Eldrene.

 

Even IF Mat is Aemon reborn, it does not actually mean Tuon is Eldrene...for an example although Lews Therin Telamon deeply loved (and still pines for) Ilyena, there is now THREE women in his life whom he loves, and nothing that points to ANY of them being Ilyens (and if one happened to be, it still shows you can love/be with someone else in a different life)

 

Ok this is off-topic, but I feel the urge to jump in and dispute this..

You've said that nothing points to any of Rand's harem being Ilyena, but that is plainly not true. There's two fairly obvious points of evidence in favour of Elayne being Ilyena:

1. It's mentioned more than once in the books that Ilyena and Elayne have the exact same shade of hair. Perhaps that's not strong evidence, but the word 'exact' is put in there for a reason.

2. THEY HAVE THE SAME NAME!

 

It's not proof by any means, but there is something pointing to Elayne being Ilyena.

[Simo]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

When BS was asked recently about Mat being Aemon, he wouldn't confirm anything of course saying something along the lines of it's possible but the main implication is to Mat's bloodline.

Mat is a direct descendant of Aemon, his vision/memory upon awakening from his healing from the Dagger showed us this a long time ago.

 

After much debate, I don't know if I believe that he truly is Aemon reborn but IF he is, then Tuon IS Eldrene.

 

Even IF Mat is Aemon reborn, it does not actually mean Tuon is Eldrene...for an example although Lews Therin Telamon deeply loved (and still pines for) Ilyena, there is now THREE women in his life whom he loves, and nothing that points to ANY of them being Ilyens (and if one happened to be, it still shows you can love/be with someone else in a different life)

 

Ok this is off-topic, but I feel the urge to jump in and dispute this..

You've said that nothing points to any of Rand's harem being Ilyena, but that is plainly not true. There's two fairly obvious points of evidence in favour of Elayne being Ilyena:

1. It's mentioned more than once in the books that Ilyena and Elayne have the exact same shade of hair. Perhaps that's not strong evidence, but the word 'exact' is put in there for a reason.

2. THEY HAVE THE SAME NAME!

 

It's not proof by any means, but there is something pointing to Elayne being Ilyena.

 

 

Rand doesn't look like LTT so why does Ilyena have to look the same?......IT'S MOIRAINE!!!

[Simo]

That makes no sense. If he is Aemon reborn, then you could just as easily say that Aemon was only awesome because he was Mat. And that's aside from the fact that Mat is mostly awesome because of his 'Finn memories, which aren't his in any real way...not to mention being ta'veren, and just lucky.

 

Huh???

[Aliriel]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

When BS was asked recently about Mat being Aemon, he wouldn't confirm anything of course saying something along the lines of it's possible but the main implication is to Mat's bloodline.

Mat is a direct descendant of Aemon, his vision/memory upon awakening from his healing from the Dagger showed us this a long time ago.

 

After much debate, I don't know if I believe that he truly is Aemon reborn but IF he is, then Tuon IS Eldrene.

 

Even IF Mat is Aemon reborn, it does not actually mean Tuon is Eldrene...for an example although Lews Therin Telamon deeply loved (and still pines for) Ilyena, there is now THREE women in his life whom he loves, and nothing that points to ANY of them being Ilyens (and if one happened to be, it still shows you can love/be with someone else in a different life)

 

Ok this is off-topic, but I feel the urge to jump in and dispute this..

You've said that nothing points to any of Rand's harem being Ilyena, but that is plainly not true. There's two fairly obvious points of evidence in favour of Elayne being Ilyena:

1. It's mentioned more than once in the books that Ilyena and Elayne have the exact same shade of hair. Perhaps that's not strong evidence, but the word 'exact' is put in there for a reason.

2. THEY HAVE THE SAME NAME!

 

It's not proof by any means, but there is something pointing to Elayne being Ilyena.

 

Ok, staying off topic for a little bit, but I have seen the point of Elayne and Ilyena's name being the same being brought up in another post as well, could someone please show me the evidence of this? I'm not argueing against it, I just want to see it because it's something I have obviously missed.

 

A.

[yoniy0]

Ok, staying off topic for a little bit, but I have seen the point of Elayne and Ilyena's name being the same being brought up in another post as well, could someone please show me the evidence of this?

It's nothing obscure. Read both names out loud. Get it now?