is Taim Moridin?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I was reading POD yesterday, I've always just kind of skimmed POD and COT. Anyway, some guy made mention of dark-eyed Aiel, I smiled.

 

As for this topic, I don't think he's Moridin but there's definitely a lot of evidence and I won't be surprised if he is.

 

Damn! That got me thinking. alot of the borderlanders and many random people always have the saying of "Black-eyed Aiel". Foreshadowing! I must compile all of my findings and create a theory about this. I am liking it the more i hear.

 

 

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

 

Indeed he could. That would be a nice twist actually.

 

Indeed, that would be quite a twist. Be'lal did get zapped pretty much straight away. Its always been quite...abrupt. And we wouldnt even think of it, since its Balefire. But to be honest, I doubt it.

 

@herid and Drekka = thanks for the reply. It is clearer now. AS i said, it wasnt an issue of me agreeing or disagreeing, i was just unsure of the arugement

[Goldstar]

Probably been mentioned already, but we know that the TP's weaves can result in slight changes, even if woven the same way as the OP. The argument about the MoM not being very likely because of he ability to be touched, may be irrelevent, if the TP changes the weave slightly to allow the Mask to "stick" on the body, so to speak.

[OptimusPrime]

This is something Ive said before myself, Ive thought shapechanging is possible for a while now

[Mr Ares]

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

 

The fact that Taim's sigil is gold while the other ones are silver and steel may indicate that he has higher rank than Bel'al and Sammael. While not definitive, this is a natural assumption. We have other indications that gold means higher rank in military hierarchy in Randland. Rand himself does this. Full Asha'man get red-gold dragon pins while Dedicated get silver sword pins.

 

More importantly, Taim's sigil has three lightning bolts while Sammael's has one and Bel'al's has two. That would point to a higher rank too.

Do you have a quote that says Sammael's sigil has one lightning bolt, and Be'lal's two? Because the one you've posted doesn't say anything of the sort. Odd that you would omit than information while keeping the references to the colours yet saying the numbers are more important. Also, this has been said before but bears repeating: Moridin doesn't use this sigil. Ever. We've seen inside his fortress, and references to fists clutching lightning are conspicuous by their absence. Thus this cannot be taken as evidence of Taim being Moridin, but it can be taken as evidence of the reverse. (If you wish to claim it is evidence of them being the same, then I don't see why I shouldn't use the red and black as conclusive proof that they are different people.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

This is something Ive said before myself, Ive thought shapechanging is possible for a while now

 

I am not sure about this. There is this quote here that makes me think.

 

Lord of Chaos book tour Seattle 25 October 1994 - Tony Zbaraschuk reporting

 

Q: Can the Power really be used to make you different? [This arose as part of a discussion of Illusion ("Mirror of Mists" is an old name for the same thing).]

 

RJ: Illusion is illusion. Doesn't fool the sense of touch, so you have to be really subtle (such as Moghedien's disguise) to avoid detection.

 

Q: So Sammael couldn't make himself taller?

 

RJ: He could make himself look taller, but he's not interested in looking taller. He wants to be taller. Besides, any sufficiently experienced man would be able to tell that it was illusion.

 

Q: So the Power really isn't capable of genetic reconstruction? (Like, for example, making you taller.)

 

RJ: Maybe, in the Age of Legends, someone might have been able to pull it off, if they were really skilled. Might have.

 

Q: Like Aginor? He seemed to be the expert among the Forsaken on that.

 

RJ: Aginor was damn good, but he wasn't that good.

 

 

 

This seems to suggest that changing yourself physically isnt possible. At least, Aginor couldnt do it, I doubt anyone could.

 

HOwever, this is talking about the OP. So technically, you could say the TP would be different, but I dont think so, because he doesnt say Aginor couldnt do it with the OP, but couldnt do it at all. (or, he could just be slippry Aes Sedai here, leaving it open)

 

But, there are other ways you could do it I suppose.

[OptimusPrime]

The thing is, making someone taller would arguably be harder than rearranging facial features. Height isnt an issue with this

[yoniy0]

Wow, you guys sure write a lot

 

First, I wonder why everyone seems okay with the idea of Egwene having enough on her plate to keep her busy, but still thinks Taim must has loads of free time. Also, Graendal tells us that Moridin doesn't come south of the Blight in recent time because he's too busy there. No need for additional proof.

 

Second, is Graendal ignorant of Moridin's supposed role as Taim? Seems very unlikely that she wouldn't spy on the BT, especially considering what a force it's become in the world, and the fact that Taim is Darkfriend. From the start, no Forsaken has attempted any schemes in the BT (except Osan'gar, but Taim seemed to know about him), which is very weird. They must have known that Taim was working for them and that plans for the BT were coming along nicely. Note that Graendal doesn't even consider the possibility of the BT being the so-called 'secure rule' of Demandred's. Another indication that she knows it couldn't be, because she knows who/what Taim is. And, if we accept that the Forsaken know what Taim's deal is, then it's irrational for Graendal to think what she did about Moridin if he's impersonating Taim.

 

All in all - as I've said 6 pages ago - while the theory has a nice ring to it and plenty of supporting evidence, it seems unlikely that it's actually true. Probably a red-hearing. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Taim's under Moridin's influence (the coloring is strong evidence, I agree).

[herid]

Wow, you guys sure write a lot

 

First, I wonder why everyone seems okay with the idea of Egwene having enough on her plate to keep her busy, but still thinks Taim must has loads of free time. Also, Graendal tells us that Moridin doesn't come south of the Blight in recent time because he's too busy there. No need for additional proof.

I address that in my writeup. This is Graendal's opinion, not fact and character's opinions in WoT are frequently wrong. Moridin could do most of what he needs to do it terms of command and control of the forces in the blight right from BT. Ishy was shadows overall top general in the war of Power but he never commanded armies in the field directly. Moridin would not do so either, wherever he is. The armies are likely commanded by Dreadlords.

 

 

Second, is Graendal ignorant of Moridin's supposed role as Taim?

 

If one believes in Taim=Moridin then yes. and so is Demandred. The Forsaken are not obligated to tell each other their alter ego locations. Graendal still has no idea where Demandred is.

Seems very unlikely that she wouldn't spy on the BT, especially considering what a force it's become in the world, and the fact that Taim is Darkfriend. From the start, no Forsaken has attempted any schemes in the BT (except Osan'gar, but Taim seemed to know about him), which is very weird. They must have known that Taim was working for them and that plans for the BT were coming along nicely. Note that Graendal doesn't even consider the possibility of the BT being the so-called 'secure rule' of Demandred's.

she and the others could have simply been told that BT is Moridin's territory. That would not stop them from meddling even if told not to do so (Demandred does meddle in BT), Graendal might too although we've seen no indication of that, but if she was told that she would not think of Demandred being stationed there.

[yoniy0]

You worked around some of my arguments (like the part about Taim's duties being time-consuming), but I get what you're saying. Yes, if they were told that Moridin's doing something about it directly and that they should butt-out, then they'd be less inclined to base themselves there. Still won't stop them meddling - as you've said - and I don't think it'll stop Graendal from spying. She's so well-informed on all the other FS; I can't believe she wouldn't try to figure it out (and she does believe she knows what Moridin's up to, we know that). Also, the clues mentioned up-thread are all visible to Randlanders, she'd be hard-pressed to find spies who wouldn't notice them.

 

PS

Second, is Graendal ignorant of Moridin's supposed role as Taim?

If one believes in Taim=Moridin then yes. and so is Demandred. The Forsaken are not obligated to tell each other their alter ego locations. Graendal still has no idea where Demandred is.

That was a rhetoric question . I continued to explain why I find that unlikely.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I cant help but add one more point about Graendal.

 

True, it is common that in the WoT people are mistaken.

 

But Graendal was right about every single one of the other Forsaken (apart from Demandred, which is different, she says she doesnt know) why on earth would she be wrong about Moridin? It doesnt make sense.

[herid]

You worked around some of my arguments (like the part about Taim's duties being time-consuming), but I get what you're saying. Yes, if they were told that Moridin's doing something about it directly and that they should butt-out, then they'd be less inclined to base themselves there. Still won't stop them meddling - as you've said - and I don't think it'll stop Graendal from spying. She's so well-informed on all the other FS; I can't believe she wouldn't try to figure it out (and she does believe she knows what Moridin's up to, we know that).

sure, but she failed with Demandred, she could fail with Moridin too. also, if she believes that she knows what Moridin is up to and where he is stationed she would not look elsewhere.

Also, the clues mentioned up-thread are all visible to Randlanders, she'd be hard-pressed to find spies who wouldn't notice them.

Many of those clues are subtle like the dark aura, the "so called Aiel" remark, warder's grace or hand behind the back thing. The colors of the floor tiles in the BT would not mean anything to anybody who doesn't know Moridin well and would not be remarked upon. Some clues of course are quite noticeable like the sigil on the door. However,

as so many opponents of the Taim=Moridin keep saying, those clues are not definitive and could mean that Taim is Moridin's man and no more. Why would they be more convincing to Graendal than to you?

 

Lastly, if Taim is not Moridin and Graendal knows it, shouldn't that tell Graendal that one possible place to look for Demandred is the BT? yet, she doesn't consider it. Why not? seems like a nice place for Demandred to be. I just don't see how Graendal's opinion on Demandred's location bears on Taim=Moridin issue.

[yoniy0]

sure, but she failed with Demandred, she could fail with Moridin too.

She didn't discover where he is, but she know she hasn't; it's not the same thing. Of course Moridin probably does a lot that she doesn't know about, but she has to be curious about the BT, as I said before.

 

Why would they be more convincing to Graendal than to you?

They wouldn't. Indeed, the pros are very convincing to me as well. The only difference is that I'm aware of the cons as well, and she wouldn't be (not all of them, anyway). And I disagree about the subtlety. Yes, his stance might go unnoticed, but not so his colors. It will be reported even without the knowledge of what they mean, and she'll make the connection on her own.

 

Lastly, if Taim is not Moridin and Graendal knows it, shouldn't that tell Graendal that one possible place to look for Demandred is the BT? yet, she doesn't consider it. Why not? seems like a nice place for Demandred to be.

My point exactly. She must (at least think she) KNOW(s) what's going on over there.

[herid]

sure, but she failed with Demandred, she could fail with Moridin too.

She didn't discover where he is, but she know she hasn't; it's not the same thing. Of course Moridin probably does a lot that she doesn't know about, but she has to be curious about the BT, as I said before.

Graendal is hardly omniscient or infallible in her judgement. She proved that many times before. Sammael fooled her about his dealings with Rand. So did Lanfear earlier. She had incorrect info about what happened to Sammael's messenger to Rand (she thought Rand killed him). She had no idea about Rand's first confrontation with Semirhage and Semirhage's capture. She never showed any detailed knowledge about what's going on in the White Tower or who was behind Rand's kidnapping in LoC. She doesn't know where Demandred is. Why is it again she is the ultimate authority on what's going on in the BT?

 

Lastly, if Taim is not Moridin and Graendal knows it, shouldn't that tell Graendal that one possible place to look for Demandred is the BT? yet, she doesn't consider it. Why not? seems like a nice place for Demandred to be.

My point exactly. She must (at least think she) KNOW(s) what's going on over there.

what I'm saying is that the fact that she doesn't consider the BT as a possible base for Demandred raises just as many questions if we assume that Taim is not Moridin as if we assume that Taim=Moridin. Therefore I don't see how it can be used to argue either point.

[yoniy0]

Graendal is hardly omniscient or infallible in her judgement. She proved that many times before. Sammael fooled her about his dealings with Rand. So did Lanfear earlier. She had incorrect info about what happened to Sammael's messenger to Rand (she thought Rand killed him).

[...]

She doesn't know where Demandred is.

Granted.

 

She had no idea about Rand's first confrontation with Semirhage and Semirhage's capture.

Aren't you being a tad argumentative there? She was summoned to the meeting were she learned of it very soon after it happened. Naturally Demnadred and Mesaana were better informed than her.

 

She never showed any detailed knowledge about what's going on in the White Tower or who was behind Rand's kidnapping in LoC.

She did know who Mesaana was hiding as, and she had her spies keep her well apprised of her actions (as per her own comments). That counts in my book, and you have no indication that she didn't know who was behind that particular scheme.

 

Why is it again she is the ultimate authority on what's going on in the BT?

[...]

what I'm saying is that the fact that she doesn't consider the BT as a possible base for Demandred raises just as many questions if we assume that Taim is not Moridin as if we assume that Taim=Moridin. Therefore I don't see how it can be used to argue either point.

She isn't. But she had a lot of time, and plenty motivation, to spy on it. Her remarks and mind-frame suggest that she does know something of what's happening there. And what I think you're missing is that my arguments works equally as well if she knows who Taim really is, even if he isn't Moridin. I only used that particular piece to support my hypothesis that she indeed knows something of Taim's identity. Her other remarks show that it can't be his being Moridin. What is it, then? As I said already, I don't think simply knowing Moridin was doing something about the BT would suffice to explain her behavior.

[OptimusPrime]

Graendal knows about Taim

[Entreri]

I do not believe Moridin is Taim. Why have two Forsaken (then with Aginor) in the Black Tower? The clash of personalities, the waste of resources...

 

I could be wrong...I thought Taim was Demandred :( It would have been a perfect place from which to gather forces and ambush Rand. But I got Asmodean killer right :)

[herid]

 

 

She never showed any detailed knowledge about what's going on in the White Tower or who was behind Rand's kidnapping in LoC.

She did know who Mesaana was hiding as, and she had her spies keep her well apprised of her actions (as per her own comments). That counts in my book, and you have no indication that she didn't know who was behind that particular scheme.

I do, actually. When Moridin spies on her and Sammael and Rand's kidnapping is mentioned it's fairly clear that she doesn't know who arranged it. Sammael offers some guesses but they seem to be guesses and it doesn't look like he knows either. He mentions Semirhage as possibly being involved and it's now pretty clear that she wasn't.

 

 

A branch that partially blocked Graendal’s path flexed away until it snapped with a sharp crack. For a moment it hung in the air as if she intended to strike her companion. “That silly girl will cut out your heart and eat it, given half a chance.” The branch flew aside. “I have a few questions of my own. I never thought you would keep your truce with al’Thor any longer than you must, but this . . . ?”

 

The watcher’s eyebrows rose. A truce? A claim as risky as it was false, by all evidence.

 

“I didn’t arrange his kidnapping.” Sammael gave her what he probably thought was a wry look; his scar made it more a snarl. “Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended, but Mesaana certainly. Perhaps you ought to reconsider what you think the Great Lord means about leaving al’Thor unharmed.”

-CoS, Ch 20

 

 

 

Why is it again she is the ultimate authority on what's going on in the BT?

[...]

what I'm saying is that the fact that she doesn't consider the BT as a possible base for Demandred raises just as many questions if we assume that Taim is not Moridin as if we assume that Taim=Moridin. Therefore I don't see how it can be used to argue either point.

She isn't. But she had a lot of time, and plenty motivation, to spy on it. Her remarks and mind-frame suggest that she does know something of what's happening there. And what I think you're missing is that my arguments works equally as well if she knows who Taim really is, even if he isn't Moridin. I only used that particular piece to support my hypothesis that she indeed knows something of Taim's identity. Her other remarks show that it can't be his being Moridin. What is it, then? As I said already, I don't think simply knowing Moridin was doing something about the BT would suffice to explain her behavior.

well, I have to say that this situation is really murky. according to you, Graendal ought to know something (who knows what) about that situation in the BT that would rule it out as a power base for Demandred. We can only speculate what that could possibly be. IMO that's not a strong argument against Taim=Moridin.

 

anyway, lest you think I'm totally convinced myself, there is one argument against Taim=Moridin that I don't have a satisfactory explanation for. I discuss it among others in my writeup but here it is all by itself.

 

 

 

Rand gets sick when he channels and he makes Moridin sick through the link too when this happens. There are indications that when Moridin channels saidin both of them gets sick. Luckers discusses this in his theory on Rand's channeling sickness. If this theory is correct it's very hard to imagine how Taim can be Moridin. Taim runs a school for male channelers. Presumably, he has to channel saidin quite frequently. If both he and Rand were to get sick when that happens they both would have to sick up half a day every day. Nothing of the sort is happening. Moreover, there is at least one instance when Taim channels what appears to be saidin onscreen after the link is formed and he doesn't get sick.

 

 

 

When Pevara and co visit him in the Black Tower to ask to bond Asha'man we see this:

 

 

A tall, golden-haired man standing near the dais sneered at her. "Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m—" Something unseen struck the side of his head so hard that his feet left the floor tiles before he fell in a heap, eyes closed and blood trickling from his nostrils.

 

A lean man with receding gray-streaked hair and a forked beard bent to touch a finger to the fallen man's head. "He's alive," he said as he straightened, "but his skull's cracked and his jaw's broken." He might have been talking about the weather. None of the men made any move to offer Healing. Not one!

 

"I have some small skill in Healing." Melare said, gathering her skirts and already moving toward the fallen man. "Enough for this, I think. With your permission."

 

Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

-KoD, Ch 38

 

 

It's pretty clear that Taim was the one who channeled here. It's very unlikely that anybody else would decide to punish Mishraile in Taim's presence without asking permission. Also, Taim is surrounded by 100 Asha'man in this scene.

 

 

The chamber the Tairen led them to was a throne room, where a ring of spiral-cut black columns supported what must have been the palace's largest dome, its interior layered with gilt and half filled with gilded lamps hanging on gilded chains. Tall mirrored standlamps stood along the curved walls, too. Perhaps a hundred men in black coats were standing to either side of the room. Every man she could see wore the sword and the dragon, men with hard faces, leering faces, cruel faces. Their eyes focused on her and the other sisters.

 

 

It's quite unlikely (although not impossible as all present seem to be Taim's followers) that he channels TP in front of all of them. And if he channels saidin then he really ought to get the sickness.

[chuckievi]

I don't believe that Taim = Moridin, but I can offer an explanation to solve your one remaining gap. He does what Rand does, seizes saidin off screen and just holds it pretty much non-stop. True, none of the AM comment on it, but who is going to ask Taim why he is holding saidin? That is a good way to get a "lesson."

[herid]

I don't believe that Taim = Moridin, but I can offer an explanation to solve your one remaining gap. He does what Rand does, seizes saidin off screen and just holds it pretty much non-stop. True, none of the AM comment on it, but who is going to ask Taim why he is holding saidin? That is a good way to get a "lesson."

My understanding is that holding saidin all the time is very tiring, isn't this right? Rand did it for a couple of days in tPoD during his campaign against the Seanchan but he gave up. I don't think Taim could sustain this for long.

[chuckievi]

He wouldn't need to, Rand doesn't and yet only his closest confidants have noticed his sickness when he seizes the power. I am not saying it would be easy, but with ALL the other hurdles this theory has dodged, Taim grabbing the power away from his cronies and then walking into the room so as to hide the sickness is a drop in the pond.

[herid]

He wouldn't need to, Rand doesn't and yet only his closest confidants have noticed his sickness when he seizes the power. I am not saying it would be easy, but with ALL the other hurdles this theory has dodged, Taim grabbing the power away from his cronies and then walking into the room so as to hide the sickness is a drop in the pond.

as much as I'd like this to work , I don't think it's that easy. Rand doesn't have to channel a lot. Taim, on the other hand, is running a school of channelers. One would think that he has to channel quite often even though he is now the big boss and delegates a lot of authority to others. but he still teaches some mysterious special classes for his followers at the least. also, in the example from the end of KoD when Pevara and co visit him he channels (presumably saidin) without ducking out of the room first. so we'd have to assume that he's been holding saidin for some time before they showed up.

Lastly, as I said above, when Rand channels saidin both he and Moridin get the sickness and the same seems to be true the other way around. However, there is only one example of the reverse effect mentioned in the books.

 

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

 

Lews Therin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

 

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

 

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

 

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

the most likely explanation for this episode is that Moridin channeled saidin. what else could it be? but if that is the case and if Taim is Moridin we should see Rand getting sick without channeling at the least a couple of times a day every day whenever Miridin embraces and releases saidin as Taim. Nothing like this is ever mentioned onscreen except for that one time.

[yoniy0]

I see Drekka is left alone. An honest day's work done, I go to sleep.

[herid]

I see Drekka is left alone. An honest day's work done, I go to sleep.

I didn't say I'm leaving Drekka alone on this! I'm still leaning towards Taim=Moridin by preponderance of evidence. One can devise counterarguments to the channeling sickness thing (along the lines that chuckievi suggested). Linda at the 13th depository thinks that Moridin only channels TP as Taim now even during his mysterious private classes which somehow enables him to make his followers strong very quickly. but I do consider such explanations (at least the ones I've seen this far) pretty far fetched.

 

Mostly, I'm just not sure what exactly is going on with the channeling sickness on Moridin's side. Luckers' theory looks very convincing to me but it's still just a theory at this point. For example, I find it extremely strange that even though Moridn used TP and Rand OP when their balefire streams crossed, according to that theory, both would get sick when channeling saidin. seems counter-intuitive on Moridin's end. Also, something confusing is happening with the strengthening of the link and the channeling sickness. for a while it looks like as the link gets stronger the sickness gets less. Luckers discussed this in his theory. But then the reverse seems to be happening toward the end of tGS. this is confusing. basically, I don't want to use one unproved theory to kill another.

[yoniy0]

I know, I was joking (instead of going to sleep, which is always a bad idea).

[Barid Bel Medar]

what about the saa? They are constantly in Moridin's eyes now, not just when he channels the TP. How does that fit in? Does he somehow hide the saa? Is it even possible?