is Taim Moridin?

[yoniy0]

I disagree completely, and here's why (ordered according to TheAngryDruid's post):

 

First, Taim is a Borderlander, and not so young. Naturally, he's learned the sword and is capable with it. Add to that his self-assurance, which comes from the One Power, and you can see why he might seem graceful. Recall that both Galad and Gawyn exhibit that grace, and neither needed to be Bound to do so.

 

Second, I put forward that different metals need not mean the same in Randland as they do to us. A general of the Shadow might well consider steel preferable to gold in a sigil - it's not wealth that he wants to show. Trivially, anyone who's been privy to the practices of the Forsaken might mimic a few. The same naturally explains the way he refers to the Aiel.

 

As mentioned above, while Taim's looks didn't sell Bashere on the issue immediately, it's pushing credulity to assume that he didn't notice a resemblance.

 

As to the Dreamspike, did Moridin ever gave us a reason to think he fears Rand, or the other Forsaken? He has goals, and he uses whatever means available to him to achieve them, personal safety aside. Subsuming the BT for the Shadow is undoubtedly one of those, regardless of Taim's identity.

 

Also mentioned above is that at the time Taim was presented to Rand, no one knew how successful Rand's pardon will be. Afterwards it was too late to substitute him as boss, but we do see that the BT is closely inspected by Forsaken (first Osan'gar, then Moridin and Demandred). You'll note, however, that Moghedien had no problem relying on people she knew had it in for her. She was self-assured to the degree that she didn't count them as dangerous (although they WERE able to defeat her, if they linked, for example). Claiming that Moridin is less brave than the spider is ludicrous. Also, power isn't everything. If Taim has ever Heard the DO, Moridin can trust that he will obay the Nae'blis.

 

Finally, I'd like to add that there are options other than Taim being Moridin or Demandred's proxy. Moridin's protégé is one such, a third-age Forsaken another, and the list goes on.

[Bluedust9]

I voted Yes mostly because of 1. the Dark Aura around Taim with Brandon actually mentioning it being like Rand's, 2. Taim holding his one hand behind his back like Rand / Moridin do now that Rand's is gone, and 3. the Warder's Grace thing. 'So-called Aiel' was only mentioned twice in the whole series, once by Taim and once by Moridin but that could be used for the Protege theory.

 

But I see no way to easily argue away 1 or 2. Especially #2. #1 we could say maybe Taim was given access to the TP, but that's a huge stretch in my opinion, but possible. But I'm really hung up on the hand thing, and add that with the Dark Aura, the Warder's Deadly Grace and the fact that Rand and Moridin are linked and becoming more alike, I dunno.

[herid]

I feel compelled to put in my $0.02 since I voted yes.

 

While I think there is some very strong points to the contrary (conflicting kill orders, very busy), I think the pro evidence is stronger, and can't be explained by saying Taim is Demandred's proxy, or is just a high up DF. Most on here dismiss that evidence far too easily, IMHO.

 

My timeline would go like this. Taim was Taim until captured by the AS. I'm assuming that the BA or other Forsaken took him (possibly as part of the plan that Joiya and Amico told the Wondergirls about back in Tear in Shadow Rising). Put him to the question to find out all about him (like Semirhage did to Cabriana). Around the same time, Ishy gets killed by Rand in Tear. He is put into a new body (Moridin). He then takes Taim's form to impersonate him and get close to Rand, and stays when he starts to gather channelers, and an opportunity forms to have a base of power behind enemy lines.

 

As for the evidence that it is hard, or impossible to explain away by the DF/Demandred's proxy theory (and the OP did a very good job on the pro/con evidence). The best is the examples of Taim doing things that can best (only?) be explained by him being Moridin AFTER he and Rand crossed the streams.

 

First, he is exuding a Warder's deadly grace where before he scoffed at anyone using swords because he could use the power. This warder bond and Rand's martial training are leaking through the bond created. Second, the hand gestures when he stands (like Rand/Moridin) were striking. It is simply not plausible for either to be explained because Taim is a DF, Demandred's proxy, or spent time around other Forsaken.

 

The sigil is also good evidence, since only male Forsaken have used it. With Demandred eliminated, the only male Forsaken left, if it is a Forsaken only symbol, is Moridin/Ishy. The different metals used (steel and silver for Sammael and Be'lal, gold for Taim) seem to imply that Taim would outrank Be'lal and Sammael. There is only one who qualifies for that, methinks. Again, by no means conclusive, but good evidence none the same.

 

His turns of phrase (so-called Aiel), knowledge of the test, and his huge success in finding men who can channel (and also amenable to his way of thinking/pressure) hint that he is more than he seems.

 

We've seen Forsaken masquerade as someone else for long periods of time, in close contact without the MoM being discovered, even at close range (Mesaana in the WT, Lanfear more than once, Moghedien more than once). An inverted weave would do nicely. Or he could even be using the TP here. And we've also seen Forsaken spend lots of time off in character as someone else, disguised or not (Semirhage, Dashiva/Oran'gar/Aginor, Lanfear, Asmodean, Arang'ar/Balthamel, Moggy). Also, the beard is instructive, and a problem. Moridin is clean shaven. Someone touching Taim's face would ruin him if he didn't grow a beard himself, so he decides to have Taim shave instead. And remember it is as Taim's knowledge of events (gained through Semi's interrogation, probably) that convinces Bashere, NOT his appearance.

 

Also, the appearance of the dreamspike at the BT is also supportive. It means Taim has access to Moridin's stash. Now, Moridin could have given it to Demandred (who then gave it to Taim) like he did Graendal. But he only had two (that she saw). Seems odd that he give away such a powerful tool for protecting a his own stronghold. One explanation is that he hasn't and it IS protecting his stronghold.

 

With all we've known about the Forsaken, does it make sense to anyone that they would let a non-Chosen amass a force of hundreds of male channelers all loyal to a mere DF? Especially an ambitions DF who claimed himself the Dragon? Or that the DO wouldn't assign one of the Chosen to the task? Maybe the Chosen would allow it on extremely explicit orders from on high, but maybe not even then.

 

No, the Forsaken are extremely wary of letting any underling amass to much knowledge or power. I find the idea that Demandred (or any of the others) would hand Taim this set keys to be extremely unlikely and totally out of character, and stupid in the extreme. He can now crush any of them, and if Liandrin and her group is any guide, lots of DF's want to move up or challenge the Chosen, at leas once, anyways.

 

Lastly, the attack on Caemlyn seems a big deal. Unlikely to be left to mere DF's (though certainly not impossible). We know Moggy has been messing with Liandrin's group, and through them, Hanlon. She is one legit option. Graendal and Cydane are assuredly out.

The others are Demandred and Moridin. Though I remember Demandred saying his "rule" was secure, I don't think he'd use that phrase about Shadowspawn (I'm thinking the Caemlyn attack via Shadowspawn, but I could be off there). If Demandred is off the board, then that leaves Moggy (Moridin's servant) and Moridin himself.

 

For me, this rules out the Demandred/proxy explanation. Or a proxy for any of the Forsaken. Once this is ruled out, it also rules out one of the more prominent explanations of the "con" side, that Taim learned how to test for the talent, and picked up his phrases (so-called Aiel) from spending time with other Forsaken.

I don't quite see why this eliminates Demandred. We don't know where he is. But it also can be Moridin himself acting as Moridin. Or Moggy as you said. But I don't understand why you think the attack on Caemlyn (whoever is in charge) has any bearing on the question whether or not Taim is Moridin.

 

I don't want to rehash the whole thing. I know there are strong points against, but I just think they are easier to explain away than some of the pros. Time issue = vacuoles, portal stone worlds with slower moving time, or really good time management. Conflicting orders = he knew they would fail or we've seen Ishy try an attack before as well.

 

I'm with Linda at the 13th on this one. Check out her theory there if anyone hasn't.

 

EDIT: It also occurs to me that this theory could be an explanation to the vexing question of why the BT situation has dragged on so long, and why Rand hasn't gone there. There is a big showdown there. Final book stuff. Nae'blis vs. the Dragon Reborn. Only works if Taim is Moridin.

I don't buy this one. There are many other options. Moridin will be the last Forsaken standing at the final confrontation at Shayol Ghul. In any other fights somebody else might be in charge.

One thing we can agree on: we can't wait to find out!

Amen to that!

 

Here is the thing about all the pro arguments. I do find them somewhat compelling when taken all together (but not individually). That's why I tried to combine them all in one post. But all of them (including the ones you present) can be argued away with some degree of plausibility by Taim being Moridin's minion (definitely not Demandred's though). Even holding a hand behind his back might be him imitating his boss. On the other hand, I'm still waiting to see a plausible explanation of the con arguments I listed. Until I see one I can not

accept the theory that Taim is Moridin.

[Muad Cheade]

I guess it is refreshing to not see a "Taim is Demandred" thread but no, he is not Moridin.

[capuga]

I voted Yes mostly because of 1. the Dark Aura around Taim with Brandon actually mentioning it being like Rand's, 2. Taim holding his one hand behind his back like Rand / Moridin do now that Rand's is gone, and 3. the Warder's Grace thing. 'So-called Aiel' was only mentioned twice in the whole series, once by Taim and once by Moridin but that could be used for the Protege theory.

 

But I see no way to easily argue away 1 or 2. Especially #2. #1 we could say maybe Taim was given access to the TP, but that's a huge stretch in my opinion, but possible. But I'm really hung up on the hand thing, and add that with the Dark Aura, the Warder's Deadly Grace and the fact that Rand and Moridin are linked and becoming more alike, I dunno.

 

1. We have no evidence that there was actually a visible dark aura around Taim. The "seeming darkness" around Taim was noted by Elayne who found the man to be creepy, aggressive, and intimitating. That "darkness" was just her impression of him, not necessarily an indication of True Power usage. Although, it is entirely possible that Taim did/does have access to the True Power.

2. People stand with their hands behind their backs all the time. I don't even really remember this but it seems that a passing mention of someone's stance is kinda reaching as evidence.

3. This "Warder's Grace" thing is really overblown. First off, Ishy proved himself to be fairly capable with a weapon in tGH when he was fighting Rand to stalemate until Rand sheathed the sword. This is the same Rand that had just beaten a blademaster in a sword fight. There is no reason to assume that this martial grace is coming from Rand via Moridin's link with him. Also, Taim would have had weapon training as a Borderlander. Just because he looks down upon a sword because he can channel doesn't mean that he can't use one. Really what people view as the Warders Grace is just a confidence and assurance in yourself and your ability to handle yourself. And Taim is certainly is certainly cocky enough to move with that kind of confidence.

 

Again, none of the "pro" evidence is that hard to explain away. All I really need is one assumption - Taim was a student of one of the Forsaken (probably Ishy). That is not very hard to believe. There are also other explanations but this has always seemed to me the most likely.

 

Now provide arguments that explain away all the "con" evidence. It takes an awful lot of convoluted and unlogical assumptions to do this. The "cons" are much, much harder to explain away.

[herid]

 

2. People stand with their hands behind their backs all the time. I don't even really remember this but it seems that a passing mention of someone's stance is kinda reaching as evidence.

 

I wouldn't dismiss this one so easily. It's a pretty unusual pose, especially with just one hand (try walking around with your left hand behind your back). Moreover, it's been used as a plot device in the books deliberately when describing Rand and Moridin. I don't believe anybody else (other than Taim) has ever been mentioned doing that. Given this, it's hard to imagine that it was just a meaningless accident.

[capuga]

 

2. People stand with their hands behind their backs all the time. I don't even really remember this but it seems that a passing mention of someone's stance is kinda reaching as evidence.

 

I wouldn't dismiss this one so easily. It's a pretty unusual pose, especially with just one hand (try walking around with your left hand behind your back). Moreover, it's been used as a plot device in the books deliberately when describing Rand and Moridin. I don't believe anybody else (other than Taim) has ever been mentioned doing that. Given this, it's hard to imagine that it was just a meaningless accident.

 

I don't even remember this, but even still its hardly enough to convince me when the arguments against Taim=Moridin are so much more compelling.

[jgarnett83]

i think taim is bonded to moridin!anyone else think like me? could be a good explanation for the 'deadly grace' and the 'hand behind the back'.birgitte feels ill when elaynes hurling in the mornings is she not???also it could explain why he call the aiel 'the so called aiel'.

[Bluedust9]

i think taim is bonded to moridin!anyone else think like me? could be a good explanation for the 'deadly grace' and the 'hand behind the back'.birgitte feels ill when elaynes hurling in the mornings is she not???also it could explain why he call the aiel 'the so called aiel'.

 

As far as I know, Moridin and the AOLers don't know the bonding weave. I guess they could have learned it after they found out about it and that the 'primitives' figured it out. But, who knows honestly. I don't see Moridin letting himself share his emotions with any primitive. Let alone if Taim got killed the issues Moridin would go through then.

[yoniy0]

I doubt it would have much effect on him. Moridin's already a fatalist, what's a little more depression? Also, if Moridin does the Bonding, he can always mask the Bond. Lastly, Moridin's aware of the Warder Bond pretty much since it was discovered - since he was never really Sealed away.

 

All in all, it's an interesting theory. Out there, no doubt, but still interesting.

[herid]

i think taim is bonded to moridin!anyone else think like me? could be a good explanation for the 'deadly grace' and the 'hand behind the back'.birgitte feels ill when elaynes hurling in the mornings is she not???also it could explain why he call the aiel 'the so called aiel'.

Ow! never thought of this one! This is certainly an interesting idea. I consider this somewhat unlikely as Asa'man bonding seems to be a somewhat sexual experience. Both Moridin and Taim are decidedly alpha male personalities and as I mentioned in the first post Taim is not gay and Moridin likely isn't gay either. Also, sharing emotional experiences (which comes with bonding) with anybody is not likely to be on either of their agendas. But it certainly is an interesting idea.

 

@JustCharlie

Moridin and co definitely do know the Asa'man bonding weave by now. They had plenty of time to learn it from Taim and Black Asha'man. But you are right that they didn't know it at the beginning (as far as we know). So at the time Taim first shows up in LoC he is not bonded to Moridin.

[Bluedust9]

i think taim is bonded to moridin!anyone else think like me? could be a good explanation for the 'deadly grace' and the 'hand behind the back'.birgitte feels ill when elaynes hurling in the mornings is she not???also it could explain why he call the aiel 'the so called aiel'.

Ow! never thought of this one! This is certainly an interesting idea. I consider this somewhat unlikely as Asa'man bonding seems to be a somewhat sexual experience. Both Moridin and Taim are decidedly alpha male personalities and as I mentioned in the first post Taim is not gay and Moridin likely isn't gay either. Also, sharing emotional experiences (which comes with bonding) with anybody is not likely to be on either of their agendas. But it certainly is an interesting idea.

 

@JustCharlie

Moridin and co definitely do know the Asa'man bonding weave by now. They had plenty of time to learn it from Taim and Black Asha'man. But you are right that they didn't know it at the beginning (as far as we know). So at the time Taim first shows up in LoC he is not bonded to Moridin.

 

Yeah I'm sorry I was in a hurry I should have explained better, they definitely know it now, but not back then. I just don't see Moridin sharing himself like that with someone. It's definitely interesting though.

[zidfrekle]

One simple fact proves to me that Taim cannot be either Moridin or Demandred in disguise.Lews Therin, from inside Rand's head hates and wants to kill Taim from the first moment he sees him. Lews Therin recognizes Taim's face as it is. Whoever we have been thinking of as Mazrim Taim could very well be someone else entirely, just with similar enough features that Bashere didnt completely call him out. Needless to say, he isn't just a new dreadlord or a new villian of the current age either or Lews Therin wouldnt recognize him. I have a theory of who I think Taim may be but it's just a little too far fetched for me to put it to words so I'll throw this out and see if anyone agrees or if I'm just batty ;)

[plague fiend]

There has only been one Forsaken crazy enough to touch the True Power consistently and that was Ishmael. Moridin may be Ishmael. It would be easier to know if Moridin wore a mask...lol It is possible that Taim was trained by Moridin and that is why he, and maybe another, have similar mannerisms.

 

EDIT: Is there a thread that talks about the Forsaken? Ishmael is Moridin, Osan'gar/Dashiva was Aginor, Cyndane is Lanfear, Aran'gar is Balthamel, that kind of stuff?

[OptimusPrime]

There has only been one Forsaken crazy enough to touch the True Power consistently and that was Ishmael. Moridin may be Ishmael.

 

Moridin is Ishamael, no two ways about that one.

[OptimusPrime]

Also re Bashere, he DID try to throw Taim out there right at the start of LoC. But Taim (as in Moridin) was quick off the mark, he recounted events that had happened between Taim and Bashere in the past. This got an emotional reaction out of Bashere. I would advise anyone who is interested to read Taims introduction with Mazridin in mind. In anger Bashere says "Taim you-" or something very similar (im mot at home atm cant check) but the point is he got him to call him Taim there and then. You need to look at this not just halfheartidly. Remember that we have heard of Ishamael manipulating people in the past, he has more alter ego experience than any of the others. Bashere is just a little hurdle, easily overcome. What could Bashere say, after first flagging him and THEN calling him by name? If he pressed the matter further it would be like "You're not Taim! Damn you Taim! Hold it, you arent Taim." If Bashere did that, he would look foolish in front of all those nobles. There was nothing more Bashere could do after he lost

[OptimusPrime]

Sorry for the bad typing, im using aPS3, awkward

[yoniy0]

I just stumbled on something I find interesting. In ToM chapter 53: Gateways Taim converses with Pevara and Javindhra. He says two things of interest:

Well, far be it from me to question Aes Sedai. I care not what you do.

[...]

"I once saw a skyfisher dying on the city docks of Illian," Taim said. "The bird was choking, having tried to swallow two fish at once."

"Did you help the sorry thing?" Javindhra asked.

The first is interesting because of the emphasis. He hints that he - in particular - cares not for the actions and decisions of AS. Now, of course Taim as himself would resent AS, and lately he has the means to ignore them to some extent, but does that warrant an emphasis like this one? Perhaps it does at that, but I still think it peculiar.

The second sentence is interesting because it strangely parallels Asmodean's tale from TFoH, about the man he saw dangling from a cliff-head, who reached for a straw when his handhold gave way. Rand couldn't help but ask whether Asmodean intervened, and I think it was more than hinted at that he did not. This story of Taim's seems like it might be a subtle hint that he's FS material. Again, you could claim that we knew that already, and you might be right. I just think it would sit quite neatly, from a literary point of view, if Taim were an actual Forsaken.

[Ishna]

Someone talked earlier about that the Dreamspike at the black tower ruled out the possibility of Demandred conncted to the BT.

How about this, Demandred was given the dreamspike and placed it at the black tower and has been given orders to organize all shadow forces there

and the shadowspawn attack on caemlyn and coordinate them? Isnt this a pretty logical way for the shadow to go about? Why make things to complicated:)

All this of course with the permission of Moridin.

 

There is no need for Taim to be Moridin.

 

The strongest argument against is why would Moridin spend all this time locked up impersonating someone

when he has so much else to do. He simply cannot do this imo. And why appear in PoD giving orders as both Taim and Moridin?

When he was resurrected why wasnt he given a more suitable body to impersonate Taim, or even taims body instead?

It is also pretty obvious that in LoC Demandred is the Dos #1 forsaken, if Moridin = Taim that is a little bit strange. And Demandred seems to have at least something to do with the BT

during that book. S

 

The only thing that is not easily discarded of the so called proof is the "so called aiel" quote. Everything else can at best be something pointing at forsaken influence over Taim. If you take the sigils people talk about, the black and red colors and all the other so-called evidence you will see that it is not at all incompatible with Taim being Taim. And the sigils, I mean if they have some connection to the forsaken it could also be used of people serving them?

My impression is that its some kind of wishthinking involved, the people promoting Taim = Moridin wants this to be true so they read in too much. The easiest explanation is that Taim is Taim. And there is enough information imo

so that Taim=Moridin can be discarded.

[Balthasor]

(SPOILER ALERT for those who have not read beyond book 11)

 

Seems alot of people missed or maybe just haven't read this yet, so I apologize if this comes as a spoiler. One of the lastest books, (book 11 or 12 i think) we see Rand meet with Moridin in the dreamworld and they talk, this is when we find out Moridin's identity is actually Ishmael.

[yoniy0]

Seems alot of people missed or maybe just haven't read this yet, so I apologize if this comes as a spoiler. One of the lastest books, (book 11 or 12 i think) we see Rand meet with Moridin in the dreamworld and they talk, this is when we find out Moridin's identity is actually Ishmael.

It was The Gathering Storm, Ch.15: A Place To Begin. But actually, it was quite clear way before that (by TPoD prologue, at the latest) that Moridin was Ishamael transmigrated. While no one contests that (that I'm aware), it is also possible that he's impersonating Taim. As I mentioned earlier, I don't necessarily believe that he does, but we can't rule that theory out just yet, as far as I know.

[Balthasor]

Yeah I recall that, and thanks for the links for what book and chapter :)

[mb]

Voted No.

Taim cannot be any of the 13.

 

Like I posted in past threads, Taim would be one of these::

-A Darkfriend

-Someone forced to the Shadow

-His own side

From what I read so far, there seems to be equal chance for each.

[Kestrel]

1) If Taim is Moridin, why are there no saa in his eyes? Mask of Mirrors might explain it... Even so, we know that Moridin's eyes are very heavily covered with saa and that they do affect his vision (ACoS, Ch 20). There have been no hints that Taim has trouble seeing.

 

2) Moridin uses the True Power almost exclusively. It's been speculated that because of his link with Rand he also has a saidin-related channeling sickness. On the other hand, Taim is a very heavy saidin user.

 

Taim might be Moridin in disguise. I rather think he is Demandred's #1 lackey instead. Or maybe, because of Demandred's on-screen absence, Taim is playing the dangerous game of trying to be the #1 lackey for BOTH Moridin and Demandred.

 

***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH***

 

MAZRIM TAIM'S TRUE IDENTITY REVEALED AT LAST!!

 

MAZRIM TAIM IS...

 

Get ready.....

 

 

 

 

 

SEVERUS SNAPE

(everyone can go home now)

[herid]

1) If Taim is Moridin, why are there no saa in his eyes? Mask of Mirrors might explain it... Even so, we know that Moridin's eyes are very heavily covered with saa and that they do affect his vision (ACoS, Ch 20). There have been no hints that Taim has trouble seeing.

mask of mirrors can easily explain that as you say. and Moridin doesn't go stumbling around like a drunk because of saa. his vision is not so impaired as to give any indications that he has trouble seeing to those around him. that means it's not a big deal. we've never had Taim's POV so who knows how good his vision is.

 

2) Moridin uses the True Power almost exclusively. It's been speculated that because of his link with Rand he also has a saidin-related channeling sickness. On the other hand, Taim is a very heavy saidin user.

we actually don't know that Moridin only uses TP. it seems likely but we don't know for sure. Demandred thinks that he must be doing so in WH Ch 13. but even if Demandred is right (which is not a given) who knows what Moridin has been using since then. also, Taim has been delegating a lot of his authority in the Tower to the others. we never once see him actually channel saidin after CoS (that's a period of 6 books). we don't even get 3rd person references of somebody seeing Taim channel saidin after CoS. it seems likely that he should but it never happens onscreen. he gives mysterious classes to his lackeys but that happens offscreen and who knows what goes on there. lastly, the theory about the link between him channeling saidin and Rand's sickness is a good one but it's still just a theory at this point. we don't know exactly what's happening on Moridin's side. AFAIK, there is only one instance when Rand seemingly gets the sickness because of Moridin channeling saidin (WH, plologue).

 

Taim might be Moridin in disguise. I rather think he is Demandred's #1 lackey instead. Or maybe, because of Demandred's on-screen absence, Taim is playing the dangerous game of trying to be the #1 lackey for BOTH Moridin and Demandred.

 

 

If Taim is anybody's lackey it's Moridin's. The most definite sign is that he uses red and black to decorate the Black Tower floor which is emphasized twice in KoD, Ch 38. Red and black is practically Morin's calling card - it's linked to him so often.