Black Tower

[GregDietzFla]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

Rand was whipping the Seanchan and Damane until Ebou Dar when the Seanchan were up to 200 - 500 damane and 50 thousand soldiers (all fresh from being sitting around Ebou Dar) against Rand's battle weary remaining < 50 Asha'man and 5000 odd remaining troops. I.e. it took the Seanchan 4 - 10 times odds to force the Asha'man onto the back foot.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

 

Of course that would have ended the Seanchan threat back in book 8, but then this thread is at least in part about how bloody awful Rand has been at using the forces at his disposal.

 

The idea of wise ones and aiel is a great idea. But speaking of something like this, why not just show up outside of ebou dar with the armies of Illian, Andor, Tear, Cairhien, Aiel, Asha'man, Wiseones and invite the Seanchan to come out to play on an open field. I doubt the seanchan at any point in the series could match 1 million plus soldiers 250k aiel and 1500-1800 channelers.

[ajfurst]

The idea of wise ones and aiel is a great idea. But speaking of something like this, why not just show up outside of ebou dar with the armies of Illian, Andor, Tear, Cairhien, Aiel, Asha'man, Wiseones and invite the Seanchan to come out to play on an open field. I doubt the seanchan at any point in the series could match 1 million plus soldiers 250k aiel and 1500-1800 channelers.

If Rand hadn't been so squeamish the sensible thing would have been to dress all Asha'man as Altaran's wander into Ebou Dar like anyone else and let them wreak havoc. Asha'man don't need to wave hands as they throw fire or the like as Aes Sedai do, so they could basically have wandered around pretending to be part of any crowd wondering what the hell is going on, whilst weaving Saidin to blow holes in palaces, barracks and Seanchan patrols and Damane. Unless they started waving their hands over their heads and shouting 'It's me! Attack me', they could have blended in and caused massive chaos. The Damane would have had to shield every male on the street and hold said shields. Which was/is of course impossible. Then once the Seanchan are in chaos bring the full forces in and mop them up. Rand's forces ability to blend in, whilst the damane/sul'dam will always stick out like a sore thumb, has had me at times wanting to throw the books at the wall for the sheer stupidity and lack of any intelligence by Rand or any of his Great Captains on how to beat the Seanchan.

 

Ituralde without Asha'man showed in his Tarabon raids how deadly it could have been. Along with Mat he's my favourite Great Captain, as he's the only one who seems to have any idea beyond a single battle how to actually use your resources in a fashion anyone with any sense and 15 minutes to think could do things with Rand's forces.

[GregDietzFla]

The idea of wise ones and aiel is a great idea. But speaking of something like this, why not just show up outside of ebou dar with the armies of Illian, Andor, Tear, Cairhien, Aiel, Asha'man, Wiseones and invite the Seanchan to come out to play on an open field. I doubt the seanchan at any point in the series could match 1 million plus soldiers 250k aiel and 1500-1800 channelers.

If Rand hadn't been so squeamish the sensible thing would have been to dress all Asha'man as Altaran's wander into Ebou Dar like anyone else and let them wreak havoc. Asha'man don't need to wave hands as they throw fire or the like as Aes Sedai do, so they could basically have wandered around pretending to be part of any crowd wondering what the hell is going on, whilst weaving Saidin to blow holes in palaces, barracks and Seanchan patrols and Damane. Unless they started waving their hands over their heads and shouting 'It's me! Attack me', they could have blended in and caused massive chaos. The Damane would have had to shield every male on the street and hold said shields. Which was/is of course impossible. Then once the Seanchan are in chaos bring the full forces in and mop them up. Rand's forces ability to blend in, whilst the damane/sul'dam will always stick out like a sore thumb, has had me at times wanting to throw the books at the wall for the sheer stupidity and lack of any intelligence by Rand or any of his Great Captains on how to beat the Seanchan.

 

Ituralde without Asha'man showed in his Tarabon raids how deadly it could have been. Along with Mat he's my favourite Great Captain, as he's the only one who seems to have any idea beyond a single battle how to actually use your resources in a fashion anyone with any sense and 15 minutes to think could do things with Rand's forces.

 

I agree 100%, especially about the wanting to throw the books.

[Erunion]

I loved Ituraldes POV's, as he was one of two people who have actually proved that they've earned the title "Great Captain" (the other being Matt, although I don't think he's been given it yet). Give Matt or Ituralde control over Rand's entire army, with a day's intro on what exactly everyone is capable of (you know, actually have people tell him about T'A'R, the Wise Ones, inverted weaves, stuff like that).

 

Nothing on Randland could stand against that.

 

Of course, as this would actually require intelligent planning and long-term thinking by the key players, it won't happen.

[ajfurst]

Of course, as this would actually require intelligent planning and long-term thinking by the key players, it won't happen.

Now I get for plot reasons why the Forsaken couldn't be super smart and logical in the first few books or the TR folk would have been toast before they acquired any power. However by WH or at least KOD, it would have been nice to see a race to see who wins because they are the most intelligent in using their full forces and abilities, not the still on-going who can communicate the least, trust the least and act in the stupidest fashion to let the other side win by 'Not QUITE as dumb as the other side' victory.

[Muad Cheade]

1. Where is it shown that they have this number?(Don't doubt you, just wondering what their numbers are) I assumed because they only collar those with the spark that their numbers would be drastically lower. Overkill, while not always a good strategy, sometimes will work much better than finess.

I placed the events Mat saw in WH before tPoD. The Seanchan would have the remainder of the Hailene and the conscripted Taraboners and Altarans.

 

2. When facing an army of channelers, Dumai's Wells and the Manor showed that the amount of soldiers has very little to do with the outcome. It is all about the number and efficiacy of the channelers.

That supports Rand and Bashere's plan of having a mobile strike force. The soldiers' only job was to keep the Seanchan from making it too hot for the Asha'man and covering their flanks.

 

 

Rand was whipping the Seanchan and Damane until Ebou Dar when the Seanchan were up to 200 - 500 damane and 50 thousand soldiers (all fresh from being sitting around Ebou Dar) against Rand's battle weary remaining < 50 Asha'man and 5000 odd remaining troops. I.e. it took the Seanchan 4 - 10 times odds to force the Asha'man onto the back foot.

The Seanchan hadn't committed the majority of their forces when Bashere and Gregorin urged him to leave.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

In hindsight, him not bringing more channelers was a smart move as the One Power was very hard to control and was causing as much friendly fire as it was damaging the enemy. Bringing Wise Ones isn't as smart because that makes them easier to spot by damane and sul'dam and are not as skilled in warfare with the Power as damane.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

The Seanchan were willingly on the defensive when Rand made his push. The onus would be on Rand's forces to attack. And I'm sure the Seanchan would do absolutely nothing when they saw the multiple gateways.

 

The idea of wise ones and aiel is a great idea. But speaking of something like this, why not just show up outside of ebou dar with the armies of Illian, Andor, Tear, Cairhien, Aiel, Asha'man, Wiseones and invite the Seanchan to come out to play on an open field. I doubt the seanchan at any point in the series could match 1 million plus soldiers 250k aiel and 1500-1800 channelers.

Do you realize how much time it would take to move that many soldiers? The Seanchan could easily repel them as they appeared. Also, you're forgetting the Seanchan do know everything Rand would do. His army has Darkfriends, Dreadlords, and a Forsaken. How do you think Suroth knew they were a smaller force and had only 50 Asha'man?

 

If Rand hadn't been so squeamish the sensible thing would have been to dress all Asha'man as Altaran's wander into Ebou Dar like anyone else and let them wreak havoc. Asha'man don't need to wave hands as they throw fire or the like as Aes Sedai do, so they could basically have wandered around pretending to be part of any crowd wondering what the hell is going on, whilst weaving Saidin to blow holes in palaces, barracks and Seanchan patrols and Damane. Unless they started waving their hands over their heads and shouting 'It's me! Attack me', they could have blended in and caused massive chaos. The Damane would have had to shield every male on the street and hold said shields. Which was/is of course impossible. Then once the Seanchan are in chaos bring the full forces in and mop them up. Rand's forces ability to blend in, whilst the damane/sul'dam will always stick out like a sore thumb, has had me at times wanting to throw the books at the wall for the sheer stupidity and lack of any intelligence by Rand or any of his Great Captains on how to beat the Seanchan.

I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be easy entering Ebou Dar from the road or Traveling into the city due to the heavy patrols and the fact that the Seanchan undoubtedly know how to read the residue of weaves made by saidin like the Red Ajah.

 

Ituralde without Asha'man showed in his Tarabon raids how deadly it could have been. Along with Mat he's my favourite Great Captain, as he's the only one who seems to have any idea beyond a single battle how to actually use your resources in a fashion anyone with any sense and 15 minutes to think could do things with Rand's forces.

And the Seanchan did what they did to Rand, Mat, the future Aiel, and the alternate worlds Rand visited in tGH: they adapted. Ituralde new he was going to lose in the end and Mat was extremely lucky in pulling Chisen out of the Molvaine Gap.

[GregDietzFla]

1. Where is it shown that they have this number?(Don't doubt you, just wondering what their numbers are) I assumed because they only collar those with the spark that their numbers would be drastically lower. Overkill, while not always a good strategy, sometimes will work much better than finess.

I placed the events Mat saw in WH before tPoD. The Seanchan would have the remainder of the Hailene and the conscripted Taraboners and Altarans.

 

2. When facing an army of channelers, Dumai's Wells and the Manor showed that the amount of soldiers has very little to do with the outcome. It is all about the number and efficiacy of the channelers.

That supports Rand and Bashere's plan of having a mobile strike force. The soldiers' only job was to keep the Seanchan from making it too hot for the Asha'man and covering their flanks.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

In hindsight, him not bringing more channelers was a smart move as the One Power was very hard to control and was causing as much friendly fire as it was damaging the enemy. Bringing Wise Ones isn't as smart because that makes them easier to spot by damane and sul'dam and are not as skilled in warfare with the Power as damane.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

The Seanchan were willingly on the defensive when Rand made his push. The onus would be on Rand's forces to attack. And I'm sure the Seanchan would do absolutely nothing when they saw the multiple gateways.

 

The idea of wise ones and aiel is a great idea. But speaking of something like this, why not just show up outside of ebou dar with the armies of Illian, Andor, Tear, Cairhien, Aiel, Asha'man, Wiseones and invite the Seanchan to come out to play on an open field. I doubt the seanchan at any point in the series could match 1 million plus soldiers 250k aiel and 1500-1800 channelers.

Do you realize how much time it would take to move that many soldiers? The Seanchan could easily repel them as they appeared. Also, you're forgetting the Seanchan do know everything Rand would do. His army has Darkfriends, Dreadlords, and a Forsaken. How do you think Suroth knew they were a smaller force and had only 50 Asha'man?

 

Ituralde without Asha'man showed in his Tarabon raids how deadly it could have been. Along with Mat he's my favourite Great Captain, as he's the only one who seems to have any idea beyond a single battle how to actually use your resources in a fashion anyone with any sense and 15 minutes to think could do things with Rand's forces.

And the Seanchan did what they did to Rand, Mat, the future Aiel, and the alternate worlds Rand visited in tGH: they adapted. Ituralde new he was going to lose in the end and Mat was extremely lucky in pulling Chisen out of the Molvaine Gap.

 

1.) I understand that they have a very large number of soldiers. I was inquiring as to the number of damane. As i stated before i think that the number of damane should be relatively low because they only leash those with the spark.

 

2.) And i agree that that was a good plan, however the number of asha'man should have been increased. They beat the seanchan back to Ebou Dar with 50, what would have happened with 200 or 500 while using the same type plan??

 

3.) IIRC the friendly fire was from Rand with Callandor. The problem with the power was getting weaves to 'co-operate'. I also understand that Wise Ones would be easy to spot, but the asha'man also wore black coats with pins on them, so they weren't all that hard to pick out anyway. However, the ability to link and for full circles would be a huge advantage over damane who can't link at all.

 

4.) Well if they had committed the majority of their troops, but more importantly most of their damane to the fight outside the walls, they wouldn't have the ability to do anything when you dropped into the middle of their city.

 

5.) If 5 seperate armies of 300k soldiers each came marching out of gateways created by full circles of 72(very big gateways, see how quickly Egwene moved her army with circles of 13), How would the Seanchan be able to easily repel them? Why does it matter that there are darkfriends, Suroth would know that Rand was gathering armies (When is he not?) and then they would show up in her lap. How is this disadvantagous to Rand? Also she doesn't figure it out until after a few attacks, if Ebou Dar is their first attack, she has no forewarning.

 

6.) We are talking about an attack that happened before both of those things, so how would they have already adapted to something that hasn't yet occured?

[Muad Cheade]

1.) I understand that they have a very large number of soldiers. I was inquiring as to the number of damane. As i stated before i think that the number of damane should be relatively low because they only leash those with the spark.

We don't get an answer on that. General Miraj, I believe, notes that he has 20 damane with him at the head of the army so they most likely heavily outnumber the Asha'man.

 

2.) And i agree that that was a good plan, however the number of asha'man should have been increased. They beat the seanchan back to Ebou Dar with 50, what would have happened with 200 or 500 while using the same type plan??

The reason they were successful early on was because the Seanchan weren't prepared and they hadn't brought the majority of their forces to bear.

 

3.) IIRC the friendly fire was from Rand with Callandor. The problem with the power was getting weaves to 'co-operate'. I also understand that Wise Ones would be easy to spot, but the asha'man also wore black coats with pins on them, so they weren't all that hard to pick out anyway. However, the ability to link and for full circles would be a huge advantage over damane who can't link at all.

The friendly fire was by both the damane (one killed General Miraj), and the Asha'man (for example Adley). It also makes both sides very hesitant to use the Power.

 

4.) Well if they had committed the majority of their troops, but more importantly most of their damane to the fight outside the walls, they wouldn't have the ability to do anything when you dropped into the middle of their city.

The majority is not all.

 

5.) If 5 seperate armies of 300k soldiers each came marching out of gateways created by full circles of 72(very big gateways, see how quickly Egwene moved her army with circles of 13), How would the Seanchan be able to easily repel them? Why does it matter that there are darkfriends, Suroth would know that Rand was gathering armies (When is he not?) and then they would show up in her lap. How is this disadvantagous to Rand? Also she doesn't figure it out until after a few attacks, if Ebou Dar is their first attack, she has no forewarning.

No matter how large the gateway is, it will take time to move a large group of soldiers. It would be incredibly easy for the Seanchan to attack the men as they came through. We actually didn't see how long it took Egwene to move her soldiers. Regardless, you're talking about moving 6 times the men she did. Not going to be fast.

 

6.) We are talking about an attack that happened before both of those things, so how would they have already adapted to something that hasn't yet occured?

I was referencing the fact that the Seanchan may lose a few battles, but they always adapt and win the war.

[GregDietzFla]

@Muad

First a question,

Is there anything that any damane could do against a full circle of 72, other than a.)run away OR b.) die with everyone around her?

1. Even if the damane outnumber the asha'man, which is possible, circles nullify their superior numbers in my mind.

2. Why were they unprepared if Suroth was given details of their army by DF, why would they not send sufficient numbers to deal with them?

3. I remember the friendly-fire now, thanks. An interesting point.

4. Majority, for what is proposed, might as well be all. Nothing that they hold back could stand against what would be sent.

5. Open gateway, establish beach head. Defend while rest come through then once everyone is there attack at full strength. I understand that they will be at their weekest when coming through, however i dont think anything about attacking the appearing armies would be "easy". First off, to guarentee that you can stop a beachhead from being formed, is to know where the gateway will open and have your army waiting. Otherwise they would just appear, and by your logic, it would take a good deal of time for the seanchan to move their very large army as well. Maybe not even getting there until every one is through. Also Egwene's gateway in KoD was 100 Paces wide. So about as wide as a football field, and that was a circle of 13, So a circle of 72 should be able to make one at least 3-5 football fields wide. with half of his channelers he could open 10 of these, using the other half to defend against anything attacking. I think you are underestimating how quickly once gathered, his armies could file through.

6. If the first battle was the battle for Ebou Dar, the seanchan would not be given the opportunity for a second battle. They would effectively win the war with one battle.

[Moogle]

 

 

Hardly. Vision from the air is always superior it's why there is such an emphasis on air superiority or why there is such strong investment in satellites which can deliver live footage of events unfolding down here on earth.

 

 

Asha'man can form gateways in the air. Logain has done it. Why not get 10 asha'man just making gateways high up in the air, angled towards the ground? Full aerial vision. They can weave/unweave the gateways faster than a raken can fly, and they could always send a fireball through the air towards the rakens if they saw any. Raken don't hold damane after all, and I imagine firing an arrow while speeding through the air tends to put your aim off slightly.

 

The problem with the magic system of TWoT is how unlimited it is. The two obvious things - travelling and compulsion - could be applied at any given point in the story and end it all. Example: go invisible and gateway to every world leader + compulsion = yay for the DO! Use compulsion on the main characters early in the series - hell, just travel to them and kill them if you want to save time. Compulsion is apparently an extremely fast weave, and impossible to block as a non-channeler (and even when you are). How about taking a gigantic stone, and opening a gateway and plopping it in space, over the Seanchan capital? Heck, why space? Why not in the air above the place? Think catapults being fired from hundreds of miles away. Good practice for the BT, no? RJ never really got creative with his magic system, but if he had the series would have been over in pages. It's sort of sad.

[ironchefofmunchies]

 

 

Hardly. Vision from the air is always superior it's why there is such an emphasis on air superiority or why there is such strong investment in satellites which can deliver live footage of events unfolding down here on earth.

 

 

Asha'man can form gateways in the air. Logain has done it. Why not get 10 asha'man just making gateways high up in the air, angled towards the ground? Full aerial vision. They can weave/unweave the gateways faster than a raken can fly, and they could always send a fireball through the air towards the rakens if they saw any. Raken don't hold damane after all, and I imagine firing an arrow while speeding through the air tends to put your aim off slightly.

 

The problem with the magic system of TWoT is how unlimited it is. The two obvious things - travelling and compulsion - could be applied at any given point in the story and end it all. Example: go invisible and gateway to every world leader + compulsion = yay for the DO! Use compulsion on the main characters early in the series - hell, just travel to them and kill them if you want to save time. Compulsion is apparently an extremely fast weave, and impossible to block as a non-channeler (and even when you are). How about taking a gigantic stone, and opening a gateway and plopping it in space, over the Seanchan capital? Heck, why space? Why not in the air above the place? Think catapults being fired from hundreds of miles away. Good practice for the BT, no? RJ never really got creative with his magic system, but if he had the series would have been over in pages. It's sort of sad.

 

 

 

It would have been pretty funny if all the Rand forces were to have got together and dropped, say, Dragonmount on the city of Ebou Dar.

 

"Tell the Empress the Dragon Reborn says 'hi'!" THUD. Just like an anvil in one of those old cartoons-war over.

 

 

(yeah, i know it's physically impossible)

[Rasko]

 

 

Hardly. Vision from the air is always superior it's why there is such an emphasis on air superiority or why there is such strong investment in satellites which can deliver live footage of events unfolding down here on earth.

 

 

Asha'man can form gateways in the air. Logain has done it. Why not get 10 asha'man just making gateways high up in the air, angled towards the ground? Full aerial vision. They can weave/unweave the gateways faster than a raken can fly, and they could always send a fireball through the air towards the rakens if they saw any. Raken don't hold damane after all, and I imagine firing an arrow while speeding through the air tends to put your aim off slightly.

 

The problem with the magic system of TWoT is how unlimited it is. The two obvious things - travelling and compulsion - could be applied at any given point in the story and end it all. Example: go invisible and gateway to every world leader + compulsion = yay for the DO! Use compulsion on the main characters early in the series - hell, just travel to them and kill them if you want to save time. Compulsion is apparently an extremely fast weave, and impossible to block as a non-channeler (and even when you are). How about taking a gigantic stone, and opening a gateway and plopping it in space, over the Seanchan capital? Heck, why space? Why not in the air above the place? Think catapults being fired from hundreds of miles away. Good practice for the BT, no? RJ never really got creative with his magic system, but if he had the series would have been over in pages. It's sort of sad.

 

 

 

It would have been pretty funny if all the Rand forces were to have got together and dropped, say, Dragonmount on the city of Ebou Dar.

 

"Tell the Empress the Dragon Reborn says 'hi'!" THUD. Just like an anvil in one of those old cartoons-war over.

 

 

(yeah, i know it's physically impossible)

 

You could pump Dragonmount's lava onto the city Ebou Dar from the air too...or the ocean or a worm maybe (if they don't die when they go through a gateway) or a direct route from the blight to the seanchan...who is distracting who from the Last battle now? lol

 

RJ should of limited how gatesways could be used a bit more or just show SOMEONE do something awesome with them (besides the deathgates).

[Brammeri]

...At Dumai's Wells we saw that the Asha'man are unstoppable. They can lay waste to an army in a way Damane never could because they aren't support troops. Taim made the most powerful army in the genre of fantasy (that I have read) and Rand has never used to effectively!...

 

 

Does he always need them to lay waste to an army?

In ToM he lays waste to an entire army of Trollocs etc. by himself.

[Brammeri]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

Rand was whipping the Seanchan and Damane until Ebou Dar when the Seanchan were up to 200 - 500 damane and 50 thousand soldiers (all fresh from being sitting around Ebou Dar) against Rand's battle weary remaining < 50 Asha'man and 5000 odd remaining troops. I.e. it took the Seanchan 4 - 10 times odds to force the Asha'man onto the back foot.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

 

Of course that would have ended the Seanchan threat back in book 8, but then this thread is at least in part about how bloody awful Rand has been at using the forces at his disposal.

 

 

As in all these things, story telling wins over the reality of the situation.

At the time of books 9 to 11, Rand would have just killed any Seanchan if he really wanted to, then felt bad about it later.

As with lots of stories, a few morals from the author get in the way of the obvious things:

 

like (a) The Foresaken could have ganged up on Rand once it was certain he was the Dragon Reborn and kill him off.

also (b) Rand could have just gone to Seanchan and start burning out and killing Damane if he'd wanted.

or © Elaida could have just had Egwene killed off quietly and claimed it was a mamber of the Black Ajah, then killed a few of her enemies so saying she'd rooted them out.

 

There are lots of things that happen in books that might not happen in real-life.

For instance, Bomber Harris destroying German cities in WW2 would not happen in Fantasy books, because he is on the "Good Guys" side.

[Nooska]

or © Elaida could have just had Egwene killed off quietly and claimed it was a mamber of the Black Ajah, then killed a few of her enemies so saying she'd rooted them out.

Unless you want to claim that Elaida was free from the first Oath, no she couldn't. I don't doubt that she could intimate it, but she would be caught out the first time someone asked her directly - remember teh other As also know how to twist words, so if they felt she was skirting the straight answer when she would have no reason to (quite the opposite) she would have most likely been summarily executed as a darkfriend. (and tower law be damned)

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

Rand was whipping the Seanchan and Damane until Ebou Dar when the Seanchan were up to 200 - 500 damane and 50 thousand soldiers (all fresh from being sitting around Ebou Dar) against Rand's battle weary remaining < 50 Asha'man and 5000 odd remaining troops. I.e. it took the Seanchan 4 - 10 times odds to force the Asha'man onto the back foot.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

 

Of course that would have ended the Seanchan threat back in book 8, but then this thread is at least in part about how bloody awful Rand has been at using the forces at his disposal.

 

 

As in all these things, story telling wins over the reality of the situation.

At the time of books 9 to 11, Rand would have just killed any Seanchan if he really wanted to, then felt bad about it later.

As with lots of stories, a few morals from the author get in the way of the obvious things:

 

like (a) The Foresaken could have ganged up on Rand once it was certain he was the Dragon Reborn and kill him off.

also (b) Rand could have just gone to Seanchan and start burning out and killing Damane if he'd wanted.

or © Elaida could have just had Egwene killed off quietly and claimed it was a mamber of the Black Ajah, then killed a few of her enemies so saying she'd rooted them out.

 

There are lots of things that happen in books that might not happen in real-life.

For instance, Bomber Harris destroying German cities in WW2 would not happen in Fantasy books, because he is on the "Good Guys" side.

 

 

No kidding. I lost 2 maternal great-grandparents to the relentlessly bloodthirsty Allied terror bombings of civilian homes. Yet it is conveniently ignored in nigh all films or entertainment that such a thing could ever have taken place. Quite disgusting actually.

[ironchefofmunchies]

You'll excuse me if I fail to feel sympathy for civilian deaths in a nation that launched a war that led to MILLIONS of people dying and attempted to exterminate an entire people.

 

It's the exact same argument as "did the US really have to drop the atomic bomb on Japan?". Yeah-we did.

 

Don't start wars you can't finish-and don't whine when your nation gets what it inflicted on countless others. You think YOUR grandparents where the only ones killed in that war?

[Mats Spare Hat]

You two need to chill out.