A question about Fain....

[blazetheearth]

I have been thinking about several things concerning Fain, and the SL dagger. Or maybe, Moiraine and SL dagger. First let me set the scene's for my question.

 

Lets look back at tEotW first

 

"It is a wonder you got this far, carrying this. I felt the evil of it when I laid eyes on him*, the touch of Mashadar, but a Fade could sense it for miles. Even though he would not know exactly where, he would know it was near, and Mashadar would draw his spirit while his bones remembered that this same evil swallowed an army — Dreadlords, Fades, Trollocs, and all."

 

*emphasis mine

 

This indicates that Moiraine could feel the dagger while Mat held it. I had always interpreted this as something of her being AS, able to touch the OP. But was it a Talent of her's instead. Or could it have something to do with who is holding the dagger and not who is seeing it. We see in ACoS, Padan Fain with the dagger in the same tent as 7 AS including Cadsuane and none of them feels the evil of it.

 

So, I guess the real question is "Did Moiraine have a special ability that allowed her to sense the dagger, or is Padan Fain somehow cloaking the evil of the dagger so that the AS in Caroline's camp can't sense it?"

 

I'm leaning toward the latter because of Fain's scene in the ToM prologue, but thought I would put it out there anyway.

 

And on a side note, I still haven't figured out how Verin got the sheathe for the SL dagger. It disappeared when Rand steals the dagger from Fain in tGH, then reappears in the Tower when Suian and her Circle Heal Mat. Any ideas on that too?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Why would it be a talent? I mean Shadar Logoth/Aridol is it's own brand of evil that is completely distinct and autonomous from the DO's brand. So even being able to sense darkfriends would mean nothing in terms of being able to sense the taint of Shadar Logoth. Remember no one hates the DO more than Shadar Logoth/Aridol, in fact they hate(d) it so much they let the hate consume them. It's why I think Mordeth will play an instrumental role in defeating the DO in the Last Battle, if only for the fact that no one in our main character group could muster even an inkling of the passionate hatred that Mordeth feels towards the DO.

[KrisAnton]

If our story began with Moiraine and Padin Fain, then it makes sense that it should end with Moiraine and Padin Fain. Perhaps this is why Rand cannot succeed without a woman having come back to life. Perhaps he defeats the DO at Shayol Ghul but it's up to Moiraine to put an end to the other Evil in the world. The evil at Aridhol was like a Shadow Jr, it would have been a major folly to kill the DO but leave the taint of Shadar Logoth alive.

 

Maybe Mordeth would have become the DO in the new Age. Maybe Rand actually kills the DO but leaving Mordeth alive would have allowed him to carry the Shadow on to the next Age...

[Mandro]

People in touch with the power can sense the evil of shadowspawn. At least they could in the first 5 books, don't recall a reference since TFoH.

[herid]

I have been thinking about several things concerning Fain, and the SL dagger. Or maybe, Moiraine and SL dagger. First let me set the scene's for my question.

 

Lets look back at tEotW first

 

"It is a wonder you got this far, carrying this. I felt the evil of it when I laid eyes on him*, the touch of Mashadar, but a Fade could sense it for miles. Even though he would not know exactly where, he would know it was near, and Mashadar would draw his spirit while his bones remembered that this same evil swallowed an army — Dreadlords, Fades, Trollocs, and all."

 

*emphasis mine

 

This indicates that Moiraine could feel the dagger while Mat held it. I had always interpreted this as something of her being AS, able to touch the OP. But was it a Talent of her's instead. Or could it have something to do with who is holding the dagger and not who is seeing it. We see in ACoS, Padan Fain with the dagger in the same tent as 7 AS including Cadsuane and none of them feels the evil of it.

 

So, I guess the real question is "Did Moiraine have a special ability that allowed her to sense the dagger, or is Padan Fain somehow cloaking the evil of the dagger so that the AS in Caroline's camp can't sense it?"

good question. I have no idea myself. both options you suggest sound reasonable, the second one being more probable of the two. It's also interesting that when Fain came to the White Tower in TFoH none of the Aes Sedai could feel any evil of SL on him. He doesn't have the dagger yet at that point but there is quite a lot of SL in him directly.

 

I'm leaning toward the latter because of Fain's scene in the ToM prologue, but thought I would put it out there anyway.

 

And on a side note, I still haven't figured out how Verin got the sheathe for the SL dagger. It disappeared when Rand steals the dagger from Fain in tGH, then reappears in the Tower when Suian and her Circle Heal Mat. Any ideas on that too?

that one looks like a plot mistake to me. I see no possible way for the original sheath to get there. Presumably Fain should still have it at that time. Of course, it's possible that the Aes Sedai just put it in a different sheath to make sure nobody cuts themselves on it by accident.

[blazetheearth]

I'm leaning toward the latter because of Fain's scene in the ToM prologue, but thought I would put it out there anyway.

 

And on a side note, I still haven't figured out how Verin got the sheathe for the SL dagger. It disappeared when Rand steals the dagger from Fain in tGH, then reappears in the Tower when Suian and her Circle Heal Mat. Any ideas on that too?

that one looks like a plot mistake to me. I see no possible way for the original sheath to get there. Presumably Fain should still have it at that time. Of course, it's possible that the Aes Sedai just put it in a different sheath to make sure nobody cuts themselves on it by accident.

 

I just wish that it wasn't specifically pointed out in TDR during the healing scene that it was 'golden-sheathed'.

 

And I thought about adding in Fain's trip to the Tower, but I figured I would get someone pointing out that Moir referenced the dagger specifically, so I was trying to keep my references to times when we knew he had it. For that matter, if Moir sensing it was a function of channeling (like sensing shadowspawn) then one would wonder about the damane at Falme not sensing something wrong once the chest was opened. They may not have known what they were sensing, but they should have sensed something about the dagger while it was on display if any channeler can sense it.

[yoniy0]

People in touch with the power can sense the evil of shadowspawn. At least they could in the first 5 books, don't recall a reference since TFoH.

Hhm, what about KoD:Oaths? Rand senses the trollocs outside just before Loyal raises the alarm. So does Cadsuane, if memory serves. There were other references, though.

 

For that matter, if Moir sensing it was a function of channeling (like sensing shadowspawn) then one would wonder about the damane at Falme not sensing something wrong once the chest was opened. They may not have known what they were sensing, but they should have sensed something about the dagger while it was on display if any channeler can sense it.

Consider that Moiraine didn't feel it at Shadar Logoth either. It has to corrupt someone to the degree that it did Mat before the effect can be sensed in that way. Which it didn't yet do to Turak's household, probably because it was on display and not in anyone's possession.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

If our story began with Moiraine and Padin Fain, then it makes sense that it should end with Moiraine and Padin Fain. Perhaps this is why Rand cannot succeed without a woman having come back to life. Perhaps he defeats the DO at Shayol Ghul but it's up to Moiraine to put an end to the other Evil in the world. The evil at Aridhol was like a Shadow Jr, it would have been a major folly to kill the DO but leave the taint of Shadar Logoth alive.

 

Maybe Mordeth would have become the DO in the new Age. Maybe Rand actually kills the DO but leaving Mordeth alive would have allowed him to carry the Shadow on to the next Age...

 

 

Considering with how much passion Mordeth hates the DO, why would he become the next DO? His whole transformation and that of Aridhol was simply to become strong enough to counter the Shadow at all costs. It's why SL means certain death for any shadowspawn almost moreso than it does for normal people trespassing there.

[yoniy0]

Considering with how much passion Mordeth hates the DO, why would he become the next DO? His whole transformation and that of Aridhol was simply to become strong enough to counter the Shadow at all costs. It's why SL means certain death for any shadowspawn almost moreso than it does for normal people trespassing there.

I don't see the connection. Anyone who thinks that the thing to do with friends is eat their bone marrow, when left to his own devices, might turn into something reminiscent of the DO.

[herid]

I'm leaning toward the latter because of Fain's scene in the ToM prologue, but thought I would put it out there anyway.

 

And on a side note, I still haven't figured out how Verin got the sheathe for the SL dagger. It disappeared when Rand steals the dagger from Fain in tGH, then reappears in the Tower when Suian and her Circle Heal Mat. Any ideas on that too?

that one looks like a plot mistake to me. I see no possible way for the original sheath to get there. Presumably Fain should still have it at that time. Of course, it's possible that the Aes Sedai just put it in a different sheath to make sure nobody cuts themselves on it by accident.

 

I just wish that it wasn't specifically pointed out in TDR during the healing scene that it was 'golden-sheathed'.

good point. a plot mistake IMO. even RJ did make those.

 

And I thought about adding in Fain's trip to the Tower, but I figured I would get someone pointing out that Moir referenced the dagger specifically, so I was trying to keep my references to times when we knew he had it. For that matter, if Moir sensing it was a function of channeling (like sensing shadowspawn) then one would wonder about the damane at Falme not sensing something wrong once the chest was opened. They may not have known what they were sensing, but they should have sensed something about the dagger while it was on display if any channeler can sense it.

It's not totally clear to me if Moiraine said that she felt the dagger or the corruption induced by the dagger in Mat himself. But whatever she meant, both the dagger and Fain were present in Caroline's camp so the Aes Sedai there ought to have felt something. Honestly, I suspect that this was a plot mistake too. One can devise explanations of the kind you suggested but I don't think any of them were intentional. as far as displaying the dagger in Turak's house, one can try to argue that perhaps none of the damane went there. why should they?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Considering with how much passion Mordeth hates the DO, why would he become the next DO? His whole transformation and that of Aridhol was simply to become strong enough to counter the Shadow at all costs. It's why SL means certain death for any shadowspawn almost moreso than it does for normal people trespassing there.

I don't see the connection. Anyone who thinks that the thing to do with friends is eat their bone marrow, when left to his own devices, might turn into something reminiscent of the DO.

 

 

This makes no sense. The DO is the counterweight to the Creator and the two have been two sides of a balance since the beginning of creation. How can a person who transformed himself into a stronger spirit through sheer malice and hatred for the DO to the point that the servants of the DO fear him, be the equivalent of the DO? They would in fact be cardinal opposites.

[yoniy0]

This makes no sense. The DO is the counterweight to the Creator and the two have been two sides of a balance since the beginning of creation. How can a person who transformed himself into a stronger spirit through sheer malice and hatred for the DO to the point that the servants of the DO fear him, be the equivalent of the DO? They would in fact be cardinal opposites.

First, Fain and Mordeth didn't transform themselves through malice, Mordeth found something is his travels. That thing might be a god-like entity for all we know. And second, to support this theory, one could claim that we have no way of knowing that the Creator and the DO are eternal opposites, fighting each other from the dawn of time. All we know is that this is the general belief of Randlanders. As the same Randlanders have a saying according to which the Creator Sealed the Forsaken in Shayol Ghul, I suggest that we shouldn't take their beliefs as cannon.

 

Nevertheless, please don't confuse what I've said with me actually supporting this theory. I'm still undecided.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I find it rather curious that as soon as Mordeth gained control of the body, the chasing after Rand stopped, and the first thing it did was marshal the black cloud from the Ways to it's dominion and start marching north towards the blight smiting down and killing every shadowspawn he encountered.

 

Mordeth for me represents the extreme end scale of an anti-hero. All the right motivations and ends but employing all the wrong methods to attempt to achieve them.

[KrisAnton]

That's a great point. I disagree for the most part because I don't believe that Evil can beat Evil.

 

All I meant about Mordeth becoming the next DO was i nthe sense that Ordeth would take up the banner of Evil In the world once the DO is TKO'd at Shayol Ghul. I don't think there will be any formal declaration, no signing of contracts to establish Mordeth as the new Evil, just that the DO would be dead yet Mordeth would be walking the world...

 

After reading your last post, your theory is probably more likely than mine. Aridhol was a good place at one time, it did the things it did in order to defeat the Shadow. It is more likely that Mordeth remembers that and is on it's way Gollum-style to Shayol Ghul to put a big black boot up the ass of the Dark One.

[yoniy0]

But Mordeth himself told us that he's making his way there because he knows Rand will be doing the same in the near future. If anything, his thoughts show that he's just as obsessed with Rand as ever. He still hates the Shadow, no doubt (which isn't specific to Mordeth as opposed to Fain). He's no champion of the Light, however, for obvious reasons (not the least of which is that he seems incapable of leaving a single soul he encounters unharmed).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

But Mordeth himself told us that he's making his way there because he knows Rand will be doing the same in the near future. If anything, his thoughts show that he's just as obsessed with Rand as ever. He still hates the Shadow, no doubt (which isn't specific to Mordeth as opposed to Fain). He's no champion of the Light, however, for obvious reasons (not the least of which is that he seems incapable of leaving a single soul he encounters unharmed).

 

 

Not necessarily a matter of hostility. Ordeth, having been a learned educated man, would know that for the DO to show face it requires the Dragon Reborn. Also you're right. Ordeth/Mordeth is no more a champion of the light than a vigilante killing a convicted pedophile on the prowl is a policeman.

 

As for not leaving souls intact. If I remember right those who enter Shadar Logoth get absorbed into Mashadar into a sort of collective which feeds off of it's own multitude? This device allowing it to be an effective counter to shadowspawn and beings of the DO. Obviously Mordeth didn't entirely fail in his crusade against the DO. Shadowspawn generally refuse to enter the ruins of Aridol except under threat of death/torture itself, even then most end up dying horrible deaths. Now Mashadar is rolling north through the blight with Mordeth striking down shadowspawn as he seems to be idly walking towards Shayol Ghul itself.