What exactly is the DO?

[Monte]

Okay, so in the latest instance of Rand's meetings with Moridin, Rand lets Moridin know of his plan to kill the Dark One. Moridin basically tells him that he truly does know nothing. What does this mean? I can think up 5-10 theories to this, all credible, without even stretching my imagination too far. Give me yours!

[moratcorlm]

A god that was trapped in a self-perpetuating prison by its rival. Whether it's innately evil or, after a few thousand rounds of the game, has simply decided that attacking humanity in a particular way is the most likely path to victory, is not something that really matters, but I think Moridin is right when he says that Rand's thought of killing Shai'tan is monumentally stupid.

[OptimusPrime]

I see it as the Dark One being a non physical force bound by a physical world that is the Pattern which is th prison. The Dark One must get INTO the Pattern to destroy it, he can only do this by possessing the True Power users, but theDragons existence makes it near impossible. Best bet is to possess theDragon. The Seals prevented possession until they were weak and now theDark One CAN enter the Pattern if only in shadowy form. I maitain that the Creator and Dark One ARE the True Source and True Power. Its been said that when you channel, the Power returns to the source after. I think its the same with the True Power, to channel the Dark One brings his essence into the Patternfor a brief time and the Patterns strength gained from the Seals weakens due to cuendillars vulnerability to the True Power.

 

Re Moridins comment on the DarkOnes, death. I reckon the Pattern is the Creators version of a shield, meaning it wouldnt be possible to do if there wasnt an entity to shield. If Rand shields Moridin dies while shielded, could Rand keep channeling the shield? I doubt it. Same thing with C and DO in myoppinion. If the Dark One dies, the Pattern disolves, because time here is a world building element specifically to fight the DarkOne, but if HE ewasnt there, time has nothing to work against anymore

[Monte]

I see it as the Dark One being a non physical force bound by a physical world that is the Pattern which is th prison. The Dark One must get INTO the Pattern to destroy it, he can only do this by possessing the True Power users, but theDragons existence makes it near impossible. Best bet is to possess theDragon. The Seals prevented possession until they were weak and now theDark One CAN enter the Pattern if only in shadowy form. I maitain that the Creator and Dark One ARE the True Source and True Power. Its been said that when you channel, the Power returns to the source after. I think its the same with the True Power, to channel the Dark One brings his essence into the Patternfor a brief time and the Patterns strength gained from the Seals weakens due to cuendillars vulnerability to the True Power.

 

Re Moridins comment on the DarkOnes, death. I reckon the Pattern is the Creators version of a shield, meaning it wouldnt be possible to do if there wasnt an entity to shield. If Rand shields Moridin dies while shielded, could Rand keep channeling the shield? I doubt it. Same thing with C and DO in myoppinion. If the Dark One dies, the Pattern disolves, because time here is a world building element specifically to fight the DarkOne, but if HE ewasnt there, time has nothing to work against anymore

 

Those are definitely two of the theories I thought of, and both seem credible.

 

In regards to yours, Moratcorim, it already goes against what I feel the book should be about. IF it is impossible to kill such a god, then how does this series end in full resolution? Moridin seems to think, from his philosophical conversations with Rand in the first few books, that this truly will be the LAST battle. And if the Dark One can't be fully defeated, then the wheel simply keeps turning and the Dragon will need to be reborn to fight Shai'tan in a different age. Using the "Dark One is a God" means one of two things. Either Moridin is wrong to be calling Rand monumentally stupid, or the series ends without full resolution. Either is plausible, but seems unsatisfying considering that Moridin is talking as a philosopher, and that this should be end of the shadow for all time.

 

Drakka, yours is plausible as well, but consider...if you are right, then who exactly are the Forsaken talking to when visiting the bore? Do you feel that is the Shai'tan manifesting himself even in just a voice? I do like the idea of the pattern as his prison, because the series focuses on the pattern unraveling completely, this is certainly the Dark One's goal, but then what you missed is, exactly what are they going to be fighting when the seals break, what are you destroying? The true force itself, or are you just finding a more perfect way to bind it, which Min, through her studies, is slowly starting to find out? I vote your theory as VERY plausible, although I wonder how it brings "final resolution" as well...anything that is created can be destroyed...there is going to have to be a very clever answer given in how to seal him in perfectly to contain the Dark One, and by proxy, the Pattern, for all times. Or do you have another idea?

 

Or CAN final resolution be achieved in this series, with those ideas and what we are given?

 

Or are there more plausible theories yet to discuss?

[Agelmar]

He is the Sisyphus of Randland, forced to try to take over the world and fail every Age (see also, Pinky & the Brain).

 

Seriously, if the past is essentially infinite, and if the Dark One wins the Wheel of Time is broken and existence ends, then it doesn't seem like the Dark One has much of a chance, does it? The Dark One's existence seems very much like what Rand, et al. experienced traveling by Portal Stone in The Great Hunt. In the waning moments of every Age the Dark One hears: I WIN AGAIN. SUCKER.

[kanucha]

He is the necessary to the weaving of the pattern. Nothing exists in WoT without something to balance. Good has no value, moral choices have no worth, unless evil is an option as well.

 

Honestly, were not for Demanded talking to him in one of the prologues, I wouldn't even believe him to have a voice. (Or consciousness)

[Rinnsal]

Somewhere in TOM Rand calls the Dark One "it", so I think he realized by now that he's dealing with something more complicated. Maybe his better understanding of the DO's nature plays part in his plan to destroy the seals. But what exactly the DO is and how and to what extend you can defeat him, is one of the most interesting questions for me.

[Monte]

I do see what you are saying, and it is definitely a different kind of end-resolution than the one I had in mind, the yin-yang in full force on that one, but it would be satisfying, I agree. When you three posted, it almost made me think...well my "end-resolution" would almost unravel the pattern as well...without that conflict, would the wheel stop spinning in the same way? The wheel of time, the literal version, seems to revolve and climax at the end battle every time, doesn't it? So...if the DO WERE completely destroyed, wouldn't that, in it's own way, unravel the pattern? If so, maybe Moridin the philosopher is absolutely correct in calling Rand monumentally stupid.

[Hadilmir]

The Dark One is the collective evil of all mankind's souls trapped outside, metaphysically speaking of course, the Pattern (Collective Conscious of mankind) by the very nature of humanity itself. If the world is the equivalent of a shared dream on an existential scale, then the Dark One is that dark thought that continues to reoccur, yet is separate from the Dream as a whole. It is an intruder trying to destroy something that seems just as foreign to it as it does to the dream.

 

If that dark thought takes over the Dream it regresses into a nightmare, but still continues and can eventually return to being a dream. However, if mankind surrenders to the Dark One, as in Rand, the Wheel's (and thus mankind's) Champion, giving in and destroying the Pattern, then the Dream is over. The Aiel have it right, a soul can wake from the Dream, but the Dream remains for the soul to reenter. The Dark One doesn't want that, he isn't contented with just degrading the Dream into a nightmare, he wants it gone.

[Mandro]

He is the Sisyphus of Randland, forced to try to take over the world and fail every Age (see also, Pinky & the Brain).

 

made me laugh, thanks.

[Mandro]

The DO has a will, that is clear, He could be an emalgum of the collective evil will of his followers, I guess that's possible, would explain the big gap between opening the bore and the walling up in the war of the shadow as opposed to the 2 year turnover this time around. During the WotS he needed to build followers, but at first only had followers in mieren and those she quickly corrupted, since at the time noone knew of his existence, whereas now everyone does.

 

I don't know, just being a random force doesn't sound reasonable, the DO has a will, in whatever form it exists. I won't guess on the nature of how that will was created, be it through Sin, avarice ambition at any costs? I don't know. I just think that it's clear that the DO has a will distinct from any particular follower.

[Hadilmir]

The DO has a will, that is clear, He could be an emalgum of the collective evil will of his followers,

 

You're thinking too close-mindedly. Not an amalgam of his follower's will, but a consolidation of all mankind's evil, nihilism, and despair. Perhaps the Shadar Logoth Effect represents one of the other negative affections such as Pessimism or Hatred, but that's off topic.

[Monte]

The DO has a will, that is clear, He could be an emalgum of the collective evil will of his followers,

 

You're thinking too close-mindedly. Not an amalgam of his follower's will, but a consolidation of all mankind's evil, nihilism, and despair. Perhaps the Shadar Logoth Effect represents one of the other negative affections such as Pessimism or Hatred, but that's off topic.

 

Or perhaps you are thinking too existentially? What is going to matter here, eventually is Robert Jordan's intent with this, and from the fact that the shadow, when wounded, has had to back off of holding winter in place. The will was again in evidence with the long summer drought, thwarted by the Bowl of Winds. In continues with the spoiling food, and the bubbles of evil never stopped, which is, of course, the pattern unraveling. All that could be caused by the mood shifts of the people, or even the sanity shifts of the Dragon. Certainly, towards the end of TGS, even the positive effects of taveren seemed to leave, only the negative ones were still around.

 

But again, to the Dark One having a will, we simply need to point to the Forsaken traveling to Shayol Gul for instructions. There is a real entity in place here. Unless someone is willing to try backing up a claim that it's been Ishamael all along? If not, then yes, there is a definite entity with a definite will.

[tollstrm]

The DO is outside of the pattern. People who are balefired are burned out of the pattern. Demandred made a comment one time of how the DO knew things right as they happened and sometimes didn't have much of a clue other times. What if the people who are balefired become a unified consciousness of the DO?

[Mandro]

The DO is outside of the pattern. People who are balefired are burned out of the pattern. Demandred made a comment one time of how the DO knew things right as they happened and sometimes didn't have much of a clue other times. What if the people who are balefired become a unified consciousness of the DO?

 

Doesn't that actually prove that the DO's PART of the pattern, or contained within? He can sense when individual threads are no longer a part of it. He must stand outside the pattern collecting threads (that he cannot influence, so I think that argument is null) or he must collect what info from the pattern that he can (like a nun staring at each thread of the shroud of turin) or he is dependent on the knowledge of humanity that makes up the emalgum that is him.

[moratcorlm]

Monte, while there are some who believe this particular confrontation will lead to the end of Shai'tan, or the linearization of time, or something, I am not among them. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

People who are balefired are burned out of the pattern.

They actually aren't, exactly. Jordan clarified that balefired souls will be reborn as all other souls are.

 

These from the interview database might be profitable reading:

The Shadow, Darkfriends, and Shadowspawn

The One Power, the True Power, Channeling, Objects of The Power

[Monte]

Monte, while there are some who believe this particular confrontation will lead to the end of Shai'tan, or the linearization of time, or something, I am not among them. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

People who are balefired are burned out of the pattern.

They actually aren't, exactly. Jordan clarified that balefired souls will be reborn as all other souls are.

 

These from the interview database might be profitable reading:

The Shadow, Darkfriends, and Shadowspawn

The One Power, the True Power, Channeling, Objects of The Power

 

As I said, perhaps the very nature of killing the Dark One could unravel the pattern.

[OptimusPrime]

I see it as the Dark One being a non physical force bound by a physical world that is the Pattern which is th prison. The Dark One must get INTO the Pattern to destroy it, he can only do this by possessing the True Power users, but theDragons existence makes it near impossible. Best bet is to possess theDragon. The Seals prevented possession until they were weak and now theDark One CAN enter the Pattern if only in shadowy form. I maitain that the Creator and Dark One ARE the True Source and True Power. Its been said that when you channel, the Power returns to the source after. I think its the same with the True Power, to channel the Dark One brings his essence into the Patternfor a brief time and the Patterns strength gained from the Seals weakens due to cuendillars vulnerability to the True Power.

 

Re Moridins comment on the DarkOnes, death. I reckon the Pattern is the Creators version of a shield, meaning it wouldnt be possible to do if there wasnt an entity to shield. If Rand shields Moridin dies while shielded, could Rand keep channeling the shield? I doubt it. Same thing with C and DO in myoppinion. If the Dark One dies, the Pattern disolves, because time here is a world building element specifically to fight the DarkOne, but if HE ewasnt there, time has nothing to work against anymore

 

Those are definitely two of the theories I thought of, and both seem credible.

 

In regards to yours, Moratcorim, it already goes against what I feel the book should be about. IF it is impossible to kill such a god, then how does this series end in full resolution? Moridin seems to think, from his philosophical conversations with Rand in the first few books, that this truly will be the LAST battle. And if the Dark One can't be fully defeated, then the wheel simply keeps turning and the Dragon will need to be reborn to fight Shai'tan in a different age. Using the "Dark One is a God" means one of two things. Either Moridin is wrong to be calling Rand monumentally stupid, or the series ends without full resolution. Either is plausible, but seems unsatisfying considering that Moridin is talking as a philosopher, and that this should be end of the shadow for all time.

 

Drakka, yours is plausible as well, but consider...if you are right, then who exactly are the Forsaken talking to when visiting the bore? Do you feel that is the Shai'tan manifesting himself even in just a voice? I do like the idea of the pattern as his prison, because the series focuses on the pattern unraveling completely, this is certainly the Dark One's goal, but then what you missed is, exactly what are they going to be fighting when the seals break, what are you destroying? The true force itself, or are you just finding a more perfect way to bind it, which Min, through her studies, is slowly starting to find out? I vote your theory as VERY plausible, although I wonder how it brings "final resolution" as well...anything that is created can be destroyed...there is going to have to be a very clever answer given in how to seal him in perfectly to contain the Dark One, and by proxy, the Pattern, for all times. Or do you have another idea?

 

Or CAN final resolution be achieved in this series, with those ideas and what we are given?

 

Or are there more plausible theories yet to discuss?

 

Of course the voice is the Dark One. The fact that he can speak to those in the Pattern is an early sign of the Patterns weakness.

 

Regarding your question on who they are going to fight when they break the Seals. Well, heres what I think might happen.

 

When Rand breaks the Seals it means the Dark One will be able to possess True Power users. However if he does this, then he will be more vulnerable. I think Rand will figure this out and come up with this plan. (Sorry, it came out a lot longer than last time)

 

Prior to the journey to the Pit of Doom, Rand will wear the ter'amgreal that makes him invisible to Shadowspawn. He gathers Narishma, Alivia and Nynaeve, and gives them the rundown. "Im going to the Pit of Doom, and I will die down there. If I return, Callandor is the ONLY thing that can kill me. No messing about, Nynaeve. No hesitation, Narishma. Alivia, you know what to do. Have faith, be strong, and be ready. Time is on our side, and always has been."

 

Rand goes into the Pit, and finds a series of underground tunnels. The place is swarming with Shadowspawn; Fades, Draghkaar, some even Lews Therin didnt know, but interestingly, no Trollocs. Rand can FEEL which way to go by the Patterns weakness; he could point to the place as easily as he could point to Alanna if she had been within range (or alive :p) He moves through the tunnels, finds morphing spike-roofed walkway, and ends up at the place where Shai'tan addresses his Chosen. He checks the ter'angreal that hides him, makes sure he hasnt been followed, and then crushes the Seals.

 

Instantly his awareness of the True Power escalates dramatically. He thinks to himself that it would be near impossible to channel saidin due to the True Powers strength here; he notes that the only way he can sense his ability to channel is the feel of the True Power looming over him. Not unlike his thoughts during the Cleansing where he said the only way he knew he was channeling was the oily feel of the taint scouring his soul. He siezes the True Power, and draws as much of it as he can, more and more and more.

 

He is forcing the Dark One to possess him. It will make the Dark One vulnerable; the portion of the Dark One within Rand can be killed, but the conditions have to be right. What I think the solution will be is for Callandor to deliver the "touching the Dark One" requirement at the same time as a weave that will severe the connection between "Randzamon" and the rest of the Dark One. (Remember, time repeats itself, RJ said this turning is no different from the rest, so in this theory I assume the Dark One doesnt die). The weave Alivia must deliver is the same weave Rand used to severe Asmodeans connection to the Dark One. Alivia will have learned the saidin weave in circle experiments and Nynaeve will have figured something out about the Hundred Weaves that is relevent during the same circle experiments. But Alivia must form the weave when Callandor is touching Randzamon, BUT only if it has delivered a wound that would kill the mortal body also. The Sword That Is Not A Sword is used as a sword against the Dark One; not only does it sever the connection that makes the True Power return to its source, it also kills the body that holds a portion of the True Power. Because it doesnt return to the Dark One it disolves, the Dark One is too weak to do anything now, and Rands blood spilt on the blaco slopes when Randzamon reached the surface and the Callandor Crew.

 

Yet I think during the fight, the sword fight that is basically Narishma vs Randzamon, the Dark One in Rand can draw from Rands experience. Now, Rand has only one hand, but the Dark One channels a True Power blade much as Rand made a saidin one early on. And Narishma is wearing gloves. Both have a drawback, but Randzamon manages to injure Narishma. It looks bad... but suddenly, in Rands PoV where he is aware of what happening if not able to do anything... he feels something stab him in the back. Now Narishma had been good, had taken a few chunks of flesh off, but Alivia, bless her, was waiting for that fatal blow. And while all the wounds Narishma had landed hadnt slowed the Dark One down in the slightest, this tiny stab in the back made it flinch.

 

Rand briefly becomes aware of the Dark Ones emotions. Anger, surprise, and... irritation? Somehow he knew the irritation and the anger were because of two seperate things. Again the stab in the back, and again the Dark One flinches, more violently this time. You know who it is. Again and again the unseen dagger strikes and Rand feels slightly closer to his body, can almost feel the pain of the wounds himself. As the Dark One flinches he briefly gains control, screams Narishmas name in the booming voice of Shai'tan, and Narishma manages to get up, drive Callandor through Rands heart, and Alivia times the weave as planned. Rands last thoughts as Narishma lunged at him are that he was proud of these three, attributing Moiraines "you will do well" comment to the selection of people for this operation, and an awareness that Nynaeve had been screaming her ass off all along and that was the source of the Dark Ones irritation. The last thought carried amusement with it, and caused Rand to die with a smile on his face.

 

Rands PoV during the tunnels would be an awesome PoV if he reflected on past life deeds, perhaps remembering who he had been in lifes between even, maybe even having been someone else we vaguely heard of in the past. Twould also be good for some AoL revelations, for example something like Biedemon always having been Lanfears sidekick even after he was reincarnated as Asmodean???/ (That last was only a passing idea that Beidemon might have been his original Chosen name but Asmodean being the one that was remembered, no evidence for it at all)

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

DO is the equivalent to a man outside an aquarium. He can control certain elements of it and even reach his hand into it to directly interact with it. However unless he jumps into the water to swim with the fishes he is firmly outside the fish bowl.

[KrisAnton]

I think a clue to who the Dark One in can be found when Nynaeve heals Naeff's madness. The Taint is the touch of the DO on a mortal soul. It uses Saidin as a vehicle to infect an otherwise healthy mind and soul. As Saidin continues to be used, exposure to the taint grows, as does the influence of the DO. When Nyneave tries to heal what she calls the DO's Compulsion with her own version of Compulsion, she assumes they would negate each other. They don't. She then channels Spirit as a ward against the taint and then pries the barbs from Naeff's brain. So we understand that Spirit separates the Taint from it's victim, which suggests to me that the DO is susceptible to the influence of the Light. So there IS a physical form there, but a minor almost ethereal existence. When she removes the barbs, she is then able to cast her net on the residue of the DO and it disappears. She then comments that her melancholy with her deeds are in fact exactly what the DO wants.

 

In my mind, the DO is almost like a severe depression. It disconnects people from the Light, the source of all hope and life. As the separation grows, so does hopelessness and greed and all these other petty emotions that came to ruin good people in the Age of Legends. The effects of the DO were still felt even after the Strike at Shayol Ghul, and not just the taint. Jealousy, war, famine, prejudice: All these are indicators that the DO exists in some form. Before the Bore, there was no war. We can assume that everyone acted in the best interest of their fellow man, there was probably no greed or selfish endeavors. We were able to reach the heights we did because we were all essentially bonded to one another. I'm not suggesting that people were actually bonded to one another, but it would have been extremely unlikely that anyone did anything without considering the thoughts and emotions of those around them. There was a long period of time between the War of Power and the drilling of the Bore. That time was filled with the gradual decay of society.

 

This makes me think that the DO was nothing more than those negative emotions, even though there is an ego that existed outside the Pattern. Someone or something like the DO was inconceivable for anyone living in the Age of Legends, yet to the people in Randland it is a given that He exists. They feel His effect on the world, but not He himself. The Chosen feel the rapture at Shayol Ghul, they hear a voice, they feel an existence, but so far nothing exists that says He has a form or a body. This makes me think that He IS waiting to possess a body within the Pattern.

 

I guess I can't really say what He is or isn't. To me, the DO is really just a shitty attitude and a whole lot of negativity centralized in one space. We were suppose to live as beings of Light, we were all supposed to be as enlightened as Rand was atop Dragonmount. It's clear that SOMETHING exists that can be called the DO. Nynaeve was able to influence it and touch it with Spirit, but she wasn't able to pick it up and simply remove it. I think the biggest clue to what the DO is comes when she realizes that He WANTS us to despair and neglect our duties to one another. Something about those feelings, those dark thoughts, give Him life. Something about that way of thinking increases His power and as His power grows, so does the darkness.

 

It's really neat to me after reading that chapter how RJ named the DO the Shadow. It really is like a Shadow upon the land. Without it, we would have sunshine and live long happy lives.

[KrisAnton]

Well, heres what I think might happen.

 

Very cool. You paint a very believable possibility.

 

I don't see where Moridin comes in, though. Nor Moiraine, but I never assumed she would physically BE at Tarmn Gaidan myself.

 

But still, very well thought out and a very logical conclusion.

[Lupy]

Somewhat off topic, but I think it fits in well here.

 

I think that to understand the Dark One we need to understand his prison. The DO is imprisoned by the pattern. The pattern is wrapped around the DO and he cannot escape it without destroying it. The DO is like a cat in a sack. He wants to escape the sack, and to do so he has to claw his way out. He cannot claw his way out though, so he wants the threads to snap and make the sack weaker.

 

The Pattern is the sack. It encloses the DO. The DO is not part of the pattern any more than the cat is part of the sack. Human souls are the threads of the pattern, they are like the threads making up the sack. The Wheel weaves humans into a dense enough pattern to keep the DO in. This is like a loom weaving fabric into a sack around a cat. The cat cannot claw through the sack, he has tried. Thus, he tries to make the threads break so that the sack will get thin enough to claw through. This is like the DO wanting souls to be in his service, and like the DO wanting the world to descend into chaos. The bore is like a hole in the sack, covered by LTT's patch. The patch (seals) on the bore is old now though, and needs to really be fixes.

 

The DO will escape if the pattern becomes a weak enough sack to claw out of. Rand and the other Taveren make the Wheel focus its weaves on weak areas. They are like patches on the sack, covering weak areas. Rand is also like the seam of the sack, if he snaps, the DO can escape. If Rand holds, the whole pattern has a chance. When Rand goes to TG, all he has to do is hold without snapping. If Rand can hold without snapping and get the wheel to re-weave the section of the sack (pattern) at the bore, he wins for another age.

 

I think that it should also be noted that the Pattern is a Weave. A Weave like the ones channelers make. I think that the Pattern was woven in the same way that a gateway or balefire is, but it was done with the full extent of the Creator's skill. Just an interesting thought.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Its all very simple, the DO is Terry Goodkind. Think about it, the DO wished to destroy the Wheel of Time and hence all of creation and reform it according to his own perverted vision. Quite similar to what Goodkind has attempted to do to Robert Jordan's work. :D

[Mandro]

How Goodkind got 13 books out of that, I have no idea.

[yoshinobu]

9Maybe the creator is like matter and the dark one is like antimatter so the creator created creation as a kind of lead shield. If the dark one can get past it he gets to blow stuff up.