Who can see the future

[Hael Me]

I considered Nalaam, but what mostly struck me as strange about him is that his crazy stories have hints of truth in them. The gibberish seems a little unbalanced for a simple substitution cipher. I figured he was speaking Sharan or something.

 

Yes, Nalaam definitely knows things - Retashen Dazer anyone? As does Androl, who is secretive in another way. Who is he really?

 

Sharan, that's an interesting guess. We have heard stories about Shara - from Graendal, Thom, Jain and the Aiel - and seen a couple of Sharans. Wouldn't surprise me if we'll se more...

 

A later quote from Nalaam: "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he get so powerful so quickly?" That name could very well be a Sharan name. Must be a strange fellow anyhow, this Kash... Hope it's simply not Johnny Cash reborn!

[Graveyardhag]

Being too complicated here I think.

 

Dreamwalkers can see possible futures and are the only ones that can watch and enter others dreams.

Aside from Egwene and some of the Aiel Wiseone's only two others have this ability, Lanfear and Ishamael.

 

Ishamael is a dreamer, mystery solved.

 

Dreamwalkers can enter TAR. Dreamers see possible futures. Watching and entering dreams is another thing again.

 

All related, but having one does not mean you will have all 3, it's likely, but not gauranteed.

 

To repeat:

Dreaming, Dreamwalking and entering other people's dreams are all seperate talents IIRC. Related, but seperate. (I think it's in the guide?) Egwene and presumably the Wise Ones happen to have all of them

 

What Perrin does is something else again.

 

so what I am saying here is that the man doesn't have to be a dreamwalker to be a dreamer. And if you consider foretelling and the like, he doesn't have to be either.

[bysomy]

Is that anywhere in the books?

[Graveyardhag]

Is that anywhere in the books?

 

 

Not in the books, no. Also I was a little bit wrong.

 

The guide says this:

Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter tel'aran'rhiod, as well as other people's dreams

 

and then there is this:

 

Q: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

I had thought he had also seperated the entering others dreams, but I was wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

[Ananta]

My guess is that Moridin is Dreamwalker.

[Nooska]

Q: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

I had thought he had also seperated the entering others dreams, but I was wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

Very interesting that last part, "a Dreamer only 'understands' dreams" - not "a dreamer has prophetic dreams" or "a dreamer sees true thing in their dreams".

What I grabbed hold of, is tha the Dreamer doesn't have different dreams from everyone else, they just understand them - so when we see Mat, Rand or others dream things that later occur in some for, it isn't just foreshadowing, its us understanding the dreams because we are outside (and know that they are significant as we see them).

This, boys and girls, is a whole new ballgame.

[Terez]

Q: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

I had thought he had also separated the entering others dreams, but I was wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

Very interesting that last part, "a Dreamer only 'understands' dreams" - not "a dreamer has prophetic dreams" or "a dreamer sees true thing in their dreams".

I would not read too much into that. It may be what RJ was getting at, but Brandon was rather insistent that Rand's dream about Thom speaking the KC prophecies had to come from Rand's own memories somehow, either through Lews Therin or from having heard Thom say it before. I tried to argue with him, but...well, here is the whole conversation:

 

Brandon

Curious: First mention of the Fisher King concept happens when Rand is dreaming, still half-sick, in the back of Bunt's wagon.

Brandon

Is this our first LTT moment? Bunt wouldn't have mentioned it, and neither would have Ishy. Unless it's actually something Thom said.

Terez

I assumed was a True Dream, including Thom's connection to the queen, and Rand & Tam with the sword.

Terez

But the first LTT moment was in chapter 9 when Rand recognized Shayol Ghul (and maybe Ishamael too).

Matt Hatch

I'd say Ishamael recognition is a fact in Ch 9. There are some nice comparisons with the prologue.

Brandon

Well, you probably have a point there. Though you might argue that this is a shade of LTT speaking to him, for the first time.

Terez

I might, but I wouldn't. :D It's more interesting to me the other way, and Rand didn't dream Lews Therin's dreams much.

Terez

He remarked on the strangeness of it in TPOD before Lews Therin came back (after having been chased away by Cadsuane).

Brandon

Wait. What?

Terez

I remembered it wrong. LOC19: 'Lews Therin's dreams. That had never happened before, not dreaming the man's dreams.'

Terez

In ACOS41 while Lews Therin is gone, Rand still hears the voice in a dream.

Brandon

Oh, I see what you're saying. (I think.) Is your argument this: "LTT doesn't talk to Rand in dreams. Therefore, this isn't LTT?"

Luckers

I think deep down her argument is probably more 'LTT doesn't talk to Rand at all'. ;)¹²

Terez

Whether Lews Therin *really* talks to Rand at all or not, this would be quite atypical & strange. As Thom? Why?

Brandon

Curious. So who do you think is speaking to Rand the Fisher King words, if it's not a LTT memory?

Terez

It's a dream. Why does there have to be a 'real' ;) person involved?

Terez

But I do appreciate the hint. :)¹³

Brandon

I don't normally dream things that happen to be word-for-word true prophecies. Rand's not a Dreamer. He got the info somewhere.

Terez

Now I'm going to cry. :( Why can't Rand be a Dreamer?? So ch 9 was completely fabricated by Ishamael? That is weird.

Terez

None of the other dreams influenced by Ishamael were anything like that. How did he create all of those people in Tar Valon?

Terez

Why would Ishamael first prevent Rand from reaching Tar Valon, and then force him to go to the Tower? Makes no sense. :(

Brandon

Lol. I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. Is there some theory on Rand being a Dreamer that I should know?

Terez

I'm being serious. There's a hint Asmodean's warding might prevent True Dreams. Also...

Terez

Egwene was guided to it, but Rand had no one to guide him if he was a Dreamer. And everything in TEOTW9 was true.

Brandon

Either it's LTT, it's something someone told him in the real world, or it's Ishamael giving him the info.

Terez

Maybe he had heard the KC from Thom at fireside on the way to Baerlon, though. Would make sense.

Terez

Well, not on the way to Baerlon, since he mentions them for the first time in Baerlon. But maybe on the Spray.

Brandon

I'll entertain an argument that it's basically 'known' information, or that Thom mentioned it.

Luckers

Why would LTT speak as Thom? The moustaches baby, the moustaches.

Luckers

Did you see my cultural idea? That it might be Rand's subconcious--like the way everyone knows the Dark One's name?

Brandon

But it really seems like a memory, and we've never seen people mentioning it, while naming the Dark One we see.

Brandon

I'll look up answers on this one for sure; right now, I'm just speaking by instinct. But I read the Fisher King concept as...

Brandon

...coming from LTT/Rand's subconscious and being fed through Thom's mouth as Rand's mind fit it into the dream.

Brandon

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.¹⁴

 

And later:

 

Sam Weller's, Salt Lake City, UT 12 January 2011 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Is Lanfear a Dreamer?

Brandon: "I lend a lot of credence to the theory that at least one of the Forsaken is or was a Dreamer."

[Nooska]

Back in the day on the newsgroup I did post a question about those dreams. Having reread the entire EotW up to the incident in Whitebridge with thsi question at heart - when did Rand hear about the Black Ajah - the fever dreams includes information that cannot come from Rand's own memories. While the duopotamians to start to trust Moiraine, untill Mat & Rand part ways with Thom in whitebridge, there has been no mention or allusion to the Black Ajah, yet Rand clearly has Thom telling him about the Black Ajah in those sequences. Now what those dreams are or aren't - true dreams, fever dreams with true content, manipulations by Ishy or something else, it seems clear that they are not the product of Rand's own memories.

[Terez]

Well, there's a bit later where Rand thought of Thom telling them about the Red and the Black Ajahs:

 

"We'll think about that when it happens," he told Mat firmly. "If it happens." The worst meant seeking out Elaida, the Aes Sedai in the Palace. He would go on to Tar Valon, first. He did not know if Mat remembered what Thom had said about the Red Ajah – and the Black – but he surely did. His stomach twisted again. "Thom said to find an inn called The Queen's Blessing. We'll go there first."

 

Now, you could argue that Rand mistakenly thought that his dream was a real conversation, but Thom did not really tell him much of anything about either Ajah in that dream. This seems to support the deleted scene impression that I had - it's easy to believe, considering how much RJ revised the book, and the fact that all of his editors had been familiar with the earlier versions of the novel. It would have been an easy thing to miss in terms of continuity.

[Nooska]

Well, there's a bit later where Rand thought of Thom telling them about the Red and the Black Ajahs:

 

"We'll think about that when it happens," he told Mat firmly. "If it happens." The worst meant seeking out Elaida, the Aes Sedai in the Palace. He would go on to Tar Valon, first. He did not know if Mat remembered what Thom had said about the Red Ajah – and the Black – but he surely did. His stomach twisted again. "Thom said to find an inn called The Queen's Blessing. We'll go there first."

 

Now, you could argue that Rand mistakenly thought that his dream was a real conversation, but Thom did not really tell him much of anything about either Ajah in that dream. This seems to support the deleted scene impression that I had - it's easy to believe, considering how much RJ revised the book, and the fact that all of his editors had been familiar with the earlier versions of the novel. It would have been an easy thing to miss in terms of continuity.

True enough - it just stuck out like a sore thumb for me on the first reread after I found the newsgroup.

Absent evidence to the contrary, I will believe that its a blled through from Ishy influence in Rand's dreams and confusion from the fever in equal amounts (okay, a deleted scene makes more sense with that quote which I haven't gotten to in my EotW reread - got interrupted by ToM).

[AvroChris]

Slight Threadomancy here, but in Knife of Dreams at the start of chapter 3 we get this from Aran'Gar:

 

Aran'Gar arrived in answer to Moridin's summons, spoken into her furious dreams, to find him not yet there.

 

and then a little later:

 

her abilities here were not as large as some - she could not find Egwene's dreams without the girl right beside her - but she could manage the clothes she wanted.

 

A few implications - first, that Rhuarc was chosen because he was both familiar and close by, making his dreams easier to find, and second, that this ability is something which has both an inborn and trained component to it. Lanfear and Ishamael are evidently both very good at finding people's dreams but the implication is that anyone with access to tel'aran'rhiod can do so. I'm not sure it lends any weight to the Ishy = shadow's Dreamer theory but it does speak for his skill and natural talent in the world of dreams.

[Terez]

Yeah, Moridin seems the most likely, or maybe Lanfear (though I think she is less likely to be a prophetic Dreamer than Moridin).

 

We have discussed the Talent vs training aspect of Dreamwalking at Theoryland quite a bit, and the Aran'gar thing is definitely the biggest clue that one can be taught to find dreams (along with Egwene's training). Demandred's comment on the training ter'angreal in LOC makes it clear that Dreamwalking can also be taught. Some have tried to argue that still only people with Talent can be taught, and that Aran'gar's Talent is just very small, while others wouldn't be able to do it at all (implying that all thirteen Forsaken just so happened to have this Talent). But I think that's a bit of a stretch.