False Dragons

[Dasmarius]

One of the things I haven't truly been able to pin down as true or false is the rumor that the Salidar Aes Sedai use against the White Tower sisters; the "fact(?)" that all false Dragons in history, from Guaire Amalasan to Logain Ablar, were used by the Tower to extend their own influence (political, societal, militarily, etc.).

 

Ishamael obviously has spoken of this as well, before it was used as a psychological tactic. From what I can tell, Logain is quite obviously lying to the Altaran and Amadician nobles brought to him in Salidar to tell his tale, about sisters approaching him and inciting him to declare himself the Dragon.

 

This doesn't rule out the others, though.

 

 

Elaida, when she manages to drum up the necessary support to call for Siuan's removal as Amyrlin Seat, does so not entirely out of jealousy and such. She sincerely believes that the plot between Siuan and Moiraine to allow Rand al'Thor to wander around free, and declare himself the true Dragon is a threat to all Aes Sedai, and -not- just her Ajah's stated duty to gentle all men who can channel. (I think there's also something in one of RJ's Q&A things proving this, but I can't find it... there are quite a few, anyone who could help with a link would be most appreciated)

 

I don't think that she would really believe a sister, Sitter, Amyrlin Seat, or any combination would actually conspire to -set up- a man as the Dragon Reborn, unless something like that had happened before, and was of some knowledge to at least some Aes Sedai (I don't recall if Elaida was a Sitter when she was raised). Given what we know of Ajah privacy against even other Ajahs (look at the Blue Ajah introduction Siuan and Moiraine get in New Spring, for one), well before the Black began to crack the Tower... this might be one of those hidden Red Ajah things; someone may have tried to do it before.

 

With either positive results (which would make Elaida jealous for her Ajah, assuming a Red had set up a false Dragon and benefitted the Tower somehow thereby), or horribly disastrous ones, whereupon she would know the danger and try to halt the scheme in its tracks.

 

 

Other side of the coin: Siuan had access to the Secret Histories, and very much in Egwene's belief at her vast knowledge of them, had to have buried herself in them for some time. ...And on the other other side, Siuan simply might not have told her, or lied, as she was quite able to do when teaching Egwene.

 

So its tangled. I know Logain was lying, most likely, and probably Ishamael as well, but RJ usually doesn't harp on points for only one reason (i.e., I'd dismiss it as a lie if the rebels just used it against the White Tower, but Ishamael as well just makes it complex).

[socom-delta]

Elaida strikes me as not being terribly bright, woefully underinformed and easily outmaneuvered despite her feeble efforts. She's quite vain and self-obsessed, too; her playing with her little trinkets while pretending to listen to one of her attendants in the early books is a big clue to this IMHO. That and the fact that she thinks she can get away with anything by throwing a temper tantrum (like reducing sisters from Aes Sedai to Accepted/Novices by decree, despite the fact NOTHING gives her this authority).

 

Considering this, I wouldn't put it past Elaida to concoct some scheme to set up a false dragon to play up the importance of the Red Ajah.

 

Truthfully, I think the Reds should be reconstituted as the enforcers of the Tower: they enforce tower edicts, specifically hunting down wilders to recruit them for the tower (or at least show them how to handle the power without killing themselves), bringing abusers of the one power to justice, and hunting down all of those missing ter'angreal, angreal, and sangreal that have gone missing since the Breaking. I'm a little disappointed that even though there's a lot of Red sisters suggesting changing their Ajah's stance toward men in general (what with taking on Warders, especially male channelers) that since male channelers are now not the threat they once were, that no one is suggesting a fundamental shift in the purpose of their Ajah. After all, is it ethical to hunt down men who can channel and gentle them because they will go mad.... when they are no longer a danger to the world that they once were?

[Dasmarius]

Elaida strikes me as not being terribly bright, woefully underinformed and easily outmaneuvered despite her feeble efforts. She's quite vain and self-obsessed, too; her playing with her little trinkets while pretending to listen to one of her attendants in the early books is a big clue to this IMHO. That and the fact that she thinks she can get away with anything by throwing a temper tantrum (like reducing sisters from Aes Sedai to Accepted/Novices by decree, despite the fact NOTHING gives her this authority).

 

Considering this, I wouldn't put it past Elaida to concoct some scheme to set up a false dragon to play up the importance of the Red Ajah.

 

I did forget about this... maybe I'm giving Elaida's intellect a little too much credit.

 

Truthfully, I think the Reds should be reconstituted as the enforcers of the Tower: they enforce tower edicts, specifically hunting down wilders to recruit them for the tower (or at least show them how to handle the power without killing themselves), bringing abusers of the one power to justice, and hunting down all of those missing ter'angreal, angreal, and sangreal that have gone missing since the Breaking. I'm a little disappointed that even though there's a lot of Red sisters suggesting changing their Ajah's stance toward men in general (what with taking on Warders, especially male channelers) that since male channelers are now not the threat they once were, that no one is suggesting a fundamental shift in the purpose of their Ajah. After all, is it ethical to hunt down men who can channel and gentle them because they will go mad.... when they are no longer a danger to the world that they once were?

 

I suspect that the Red Ajah itself may split; there are some that truly despise men in general, and the possibility of a lot more of the Vileness that occurred around the Aiel War may suddenly spring up again. After all, a Sister's easily able to speak an untruth if she -believes- it true, and the Reds more than most seem quite adept at seeing their own truths.

 

Saidin's clean, but there's nothing to stop a group of unbelieving Reds to start gentling outside Tower law again, just out of spite. Saidin's cleansing is unfortunately still fairly fresh, with even the Aes Sedai bonded to Asha'man having some troubles with that.

[dovien]

Well the Red Ajah's purpose has always been to deal with male channelers and while bonding Asha'man is kind of a big deal, it's not really too far from their original goals.

 

Oh, and Elaida was never a Sitter, she was advisor to Morgase for almost her entire career as Aes Sedai. She is intelligent though, but she has a number of character 'flaws' and has been manipulated rather a lot.

[blazetheearth]

Well the Red Ajah's purpose has always been to deal with male channelers and while bonding Asha'man is kind of a big deal, it's not really too far from their original goals.

 

Oh, and Elaida was never a Sitter, she was advisor to Morgase for almost her entire career as Aes Sedai. She is intelligent though, but she has a number of character 'flaws' and has been manipulated rather a lot.

 

She was a Sitter, but only for a few months. She was raised to the Hall after bringing Elayne to the Tower. Her recruitment of Elayne (one of the most potentially powerful novices in centuries) gave her enough political leverage to have herself raised. The books originally omitted this, but later printings added the word phrase "other Sitters" when Elaida turns to talk to the rest of the AS during Suian's arrest. There is a quote from RJ on floating around these boards if I can find it.

 

And as for the original question about Reds and False Dragons. Elaida suspected Suian and Mor before she went back to the WT w/ Elayne. We see from her PoV that she had searched Camelyn looking for Rand but before she could find him Moraine had taken him and the rest through the Ways. Unlike most of the other AS, Elaida never forgot that Suian and Mor were pillow friends, and automatically connected Mor's actions with Suian. She suspected that Rand could channel after she met him in the palace, but couldn't prove it and so couldn't make Morgase hold Rand. Then when she heard about Suian's trip to Fal Dara she began her investigation in earnest. It's possible that she might not have gotten very far (in fact she doesn't even mention men channeling in the charges she levied at Suian, IIRC) but she had the Head of the Black Ajah helping her look for charges.

 

I think it likely that one reason she was so ready to jump to the conclusion that Suian and Mor were trying to set up a False Dragon comes from 3 things, none of which require access to the secret histories.

 

1. Her predisposition to dislike both Suian and Mor. We have seen in NS that as an Accepted she pushed the pair harder than she should have (earning a penance from her treatment of them). And she was extremely jealous and upset when Suian was raised to Amrylin, because she felt that Suain didn't deserve it. I don't know about you, but to me Elaida seems to be the type to hold a grudge a long time.

 

2. Elaida was a part of the "Vileness" from 20 years ago, when Reds went through out Randland gentling any man who could channel on the spot, in violation of Tower law. If you do something to break the law then you are usually quicker to think that others will break the law also (it's just human nature, and it's a way of easing our own sense of guilt over it). Keeping that in mind, there is no way that she could think that Suian and Mor were performing a Second Vileness, but she knew that Mor was in someway connected to a man Elaida suspects can channel. The only other way that an AS can be involved with a man that can channel illegally is either by gentling/killing him without trial or by aiding him. Since Suain and Mor aren't gentling this man, then that only leaves aiding him.

 

3. The sheer number of Flase Dragons in recent years would bring the idea to mind. She had just accompanied Logain from Camelyn to Tar Valon. Word of Mazrim Taim was already starting to spread by the time she got to Tar Valon, as well as that poor guy that was killed when Rand proclaimed himself.

 

When you add the number of False Dragons to her suspicions that Suain and Mor are somehow helping a man Elaida believe can channel, and really the only reason to help that kind of man would be to create a False Dragon. The truly funny part of all of this is that Elaida was mostly right. They were trying to set a man who could channel up to be a Dragon in the eyes of the world. The only thing she was wrong in is that instead of being a Flase Dragon, he really is the Dragon Reborn.

 

As to whether or not the WT has set up a False Dragon in the past, I believe that at least one or two were. Mainly because of Pedron Naill, and Suian. Suian was awfully quick to latch onto the idea that of using Logain to help the SAS (before leaving TV even), even if we didn't find out until much later "how" she planned on using him and it's apparent that she didn't tell the rest of the party how she planned on using him either. Knowing Suian, I can't believe that he didn't have that plan formed long before reaching Kore Springs even, much less Salidar. The only thing reason that I can think of for her to be able to come up with that particular idea so quick is because she had read something in the histories that led her to think of it . I can easily see one of the past Amyrlins adopting Pedron Naill line of thinking about "setting a rabid lion lose in the streets, then save the people by bringing down the lion." People of Randland do not trust AS, many blame the AS for the Breaking, and for all the problems of the world since then. The AS know how people feel about them. What would one of the best/quickest ways to change the people's minds be? Show the people how much that they need you, by doing for them the one thing that they cannot do for themselves, publicly deal with a False Dragon. I doubt that it was either Raolin or Guaire, because of how successful they were (it would imply that the WT raised them then lost control of them) but I think it's possible for one of the other few FD's over the past 3000 years.

 

I doubt that it was an Ajah secret, it would seem much more likely to have been put forth by an Amyrlin as opposed to an entire Ajah.

[dovien]

She was a Sitter, but only for a few months. She was raised to the Hall after bringing Elayne to the Tower. Her recruitment of Elayne [...] gave her enough political leverage to have herself raised. The books originally omitted this, but later printings added the word phrase "other Sitters" when Elaida turns to talk to the rest of the AS during Suian's arrest. There is a quote from RJ on floating around these boards if I can find it.

Really? It's not often I'm wrong but if the information was that obscure I guess I can forgive myself... maybe. Thanks.

[moratcorlm]

This is tremendously useful in keeping track of the minor characters involved in the Hall politics throughout the story. For Elaida's story specifically, search for "Week 20" here.

[blazetheearth]

This is tremendously useful in keeping track of the minor characters involved in the Hall politics throughout the story. For Elaida's story specifically, search for "Week 20" here.

 

Exactly, the quote I was thinking of is there.

 

Week 20 Question: It seems that Elaida, leading the Sitters who arrest Siuan Sanche, must be a Sitter herself, yet she was just a few months returned from her position in Caemlyn. Was she actually a Sitter and if so when was she raised? Can you also clarify her change of heart on the Black Ajah from warning the three girls about them in The Dragon Reborn to violently denying their existence in later books?

Robert Jordan Answers: Elaida wasn't a Sitter when she led the arrest of Siuan, but she had organized it, managed to arrange for a rump Hall of the Tower to vote on deposing Siuan and raising her in Siuan's place. By the time Siuan was arrested, Elaida was the "legal" Amyrlin Seat, so of course she was leading the Sitters. As for her change of heart of the Black Ajah, she bounces on whether or not she believes in their existence. When she has convinced herself that they do exist, she is vehement on the subject, but uneasy over Darkfriend sisters, and so manages to convince herself that she was mistaken, whereupon she becomes vehement about their non-existence. But then she becomes uneasy over the possibility that they do exist after all and convinces herself that they really do after all, whereupon…. I have even had a character in the White Tower comment that sometimes Elaida doesn't seem to know from one day to the next whether or not she believes in the Black Ajah.

 

----Corrected version----

 

CORRECTION: Answering these questions, I have always taken the assumption that I knew the books well enough that I did not need to refer to my notes. My answer for the Week 20 Question showed that I was mistaken. I said that Elaida was never a Sitter, but no sooner was that answer posted than my assistant Maria, who also is a fan, came to me with the relevant passage where Elaida is mentioned as a Sitter. I went to my notes, and after a lot of checking, I found the following in a file working out exactly how some points were to be structured and making sure that I had all the details covered. Somehow, I had never incorporated it into the base notes, perhaps because it seemed such a small matter, Elaida having been a Sitter for such a short time and then only as prelude to replacing Siuan as Amyrlin.

“Returning to the White Tower, Elaida quickly became convinced that Siuan and Moiraine were engaged in a scheme that involved Rand al’Thor. Indeed, she had suspicions of this before departing Caemlyn for Tar Valon. Moiraine’s presence in Tar Valon [What? When? He probably meant Caemlyn. - Terez] had not escaped her, nor that Moiraine had been seen with Rand. If, as seemed the more likely, he was simply a man who could channel who Siuan and Moiraine intended to make use of as a false Dragon, then it was a scheme that was extremely dangerous to the Tower. Revelation of such involvement could easily shatter the Tower’s prestige, and with it the influence that was the primary cornerstone of the Tower’s influence in the world. And if he was indeed the Dragon Reborn, Elaida certainly had no confidence in Siuan’s ability to handle the him, as surely the Dragon Reborn would need to be handled, guided and directed, not to mention controlled. Helped by her long-standing personal animosity toward Siuan and Moiraine, Elaida came to the conclusion that Siuan must be removed for the good of the Tower. This was not something that could be accomplished by an ordinary sister, however the stepping down of a Red Sitter (Amira Moselle) gave her an opening, and she managed to get herself chosen as Amira’s replacement in the Hall of the Tower.<br id="e5bc"><br id="ho_o">In large part this was because of Galina Casban’s support as head of the Red Ajah, Galina having her own reasons to take any chance to pull Siuan down and, of course, favoring anything that would give the Amyrlin Seat to the Red Ajah again after so long. Galina made no attempt to attain the Amyrlin Seat herself because she knew she had little or no chance of being raised. Elaida, who had been so long away from Tar Valon and thus remained out of the political currents of the Tower, not to mention the favorable mention she had received for her guidance of Queen Morgase and Andor, was another matter.

Once Elaida had a chair in the Hall, it was a relatively simple matter to identify the Sitters who seemed most likely to stand for deposing Siuan, since a number of Sitters were uneasy at best about what Siuan was up to. Her support in the Hall had eroded sufficiently by The Great Hunt that she had opposition to her journey to Shienar. As a Sitter, Elaida was able to call a sitting of the Hall while making sure that only the Sitters she wanted to attend actually received notification. Elaida is a forceful and effective speaker, and her arguments to this bare quorum in favor of deposing Siuan were also her campaign for being raised to the Amyrlin Seat herself, so the vote to depose Siuan was followed immediately by the vote to make Elaida the new Amyrlin. She did not expect the violent reaction that would come from this. She had not had access to the secret histories for very long at this point, so her view was that of most sisters. The Tower had always acceded to the will of the Hall however sisters might grumble. Like many others, she was blind-sided by what she thought she knew.”<br id="m5lr"><br id="w2oz">So there it is. I offer my apologies for giving an erroneous answer. From now on, I’ll be sure to check my notes. [Yay for HCFF Maria! - Terez]

 

Definitely obscure. Had I not seen someone else post something about the subject I never would have known either.

[socom-delta]

After reading that, I think I'd definitely like to see Robert Jordan's author's notes published as a book by themselves. Must be a fascinating read, and maybe even instructional for aspiring authors. :)

[dovien]

Thanks for posting the proof guys, much appreciated.

[Dasmarius]

 

2. Elaida was a part of the "Vileness" from 20 years ago, when Reds went through out Randland gentling any man who could channel on the spot, in violation of Tower law. If you do something to break the law then you are usually quicker to think that others will break the law also (it's just human nature, and it's a way of easing our own sense of guilt over it). Keeping that in mind, there is no way that she could think that Suian and Mor were performing a Second Vileness, but she knew that Mor was in someway connected to a man Elaida suspects can channel. The only other way that an AS can be involved with a man that can channel illegally is either by gentling/killing him without trial or by aiding him. Since Suain and Mor aren't gentling this man, then that only leaves aiding him.

 

 

Alright, that I did -not- know. I assumed that every Red involved in the Vileness was ejected from the tower into exile by ... name escapes me, whichever Amyrlin was right after Sierin Vayu, and are only now coming back (i.e., Tsutama Rath, etc.), not kept in her respected position.

 

Poor Thom.

[moratcorlm]

In TPOD26, Toveine grouses to herself that Elaida "slipped through the cracks uncaught." More about the 'vileness' here and here.

[blazetheearth]

In TPOD26, Toveine grouses to herself that Elaida "slipped through the cracks uncaught." More about the 'vileness' here and here.

 

Good links. I'm always happy when someone else can provide the links to back me up. Especially since I am new to the boards and the various online resources. Thank you, moratcorlm.

[Dasmarius]

Indeed :D Many thanks for all the links; helpful in the extreme :D