Blood Knives vs. Fades vs. Gawyn

[Rookie.Rider]

I doubt that any man can take on 2 Fades at once with the possible exception of Lan or Jearom. Nobody would be able to take on 3 at once. Each Fade appears to have the skill of a blademaster, carry's a truly lethal sword (smallest cut with kill without being Healed), plus they can take a lot of punishment (many times that of a human) before dying. We have not seen anyone in the series taking out more than 1 Fade at a time, this includes the likes of Lan, Rhuarc, Gaul, Mat, Rand and Perrin. According to Mat, you have to overwhelm the Fade before it overwhelms you.

 

That is mostly because we've never seen two fades fighting side by side. However, Gawyn beat Sleete and Marlesh at the same time, both of which I'd place above a myrddraal. Remember, he beat them both solidly several times with no losses or injuries as far as I recall. The Fades' speed is problematic though; I'd say no matter how skilled, no man can defeat four myrddraal at once. Lan could beat three Fades for the majority of the fights, but I give him an incredibly small chance to beat four at once and that would only be due to both luck and his amazing swordsmanship being at their absolute peaks. (Note: I'm only saying he could beat the three or four, he could die later from the Thakan'dar blade wounds just as easily)

 

Sleete would be able to defeat 1 Fade, I highly doubt Marlesh could. If Fades were that easy to defeat, essentially most Warders could, then they would not be that feared. Most Warders while great, are not blademaster level. If memory serves me correctly, Rhuarc and about 4 other Aiel confronted 2 Fades...Rhuarc said the 2 Fades could have killed them all, if not for Nynaeve et al and balefire. Rhuarc=Lan, prior to Moraine dying and Lan going to another level (level 99 Warder?). Rhuarc certainly would have killed his Fade, so that left 4 on 1...Thus this implies that Rhuarc could not take on 2 Fades at once, and that even with 4 Aiel on 1 Fade, it was no guarantee of victory.

 

Rhuarc is certainly top tier Aiel fighter, should be able to take on 8-9 soldiers at once, possibly 10. We saw somebody like Gaul unarmed finishing off about 8 armed Whitecloaks (him and Perrin with an axe took out a dozen, and Gaul took out most of them, Perrin was "amazed"). So I would certainly say that the very best Aiel are at or near Lan/Jearom level. Jearom having taking out 10 at once.

 

From the various fights throughout the series, I estimate:

 

1 Fade = 6 'fearless' soliders

 

1 average Warder = 3 average soliders, thus taking more than 2 to finish a Fade.

 

1 average Aiel = at least 2 average soliders, thus taking more than 3 to finish a Fade. We have seen a Fade kill 2 Aiel at once (then Mat finished it off...)

 

There is no way Lan could take on 3, let alone 4, unless he uses a bloodknife ter'angreal, even then he would get cut badly and eventually die from the 'poison' of the Fades sword well before the ter'angreal kills him.

 

Thus, even to take on two Fades at once, Lan would have to be at his peak and be lucky. Given that 2 Fades = 12 soliders and their weapons are so deadly and they are hard to kill/taking many hits.

 

To take on 3 Fades at once, Lan would have to be more than Gawyn lucky.

 

That's an interesting thought. Not all Warders are blademasters, but they are masters of whatever weapon they use. If there is an equivalent to a blademaster rank in the field of archery, for example, then I would think that a Warder whose primary expertise is with bow & arrow, then said Warder would have to be a master of that weapon. I keep going back to what Lord Agelmar said back in the first book. That the Warders are the best. This coming from a guy who has fought the Aiel, as well as various incarnations of Shadowspawn. It would only make sense that every Warder can defeat a Fade, one-on-one. What good would a Warder be if he cannot do that? His main task is to protect his Aes Sedai. The caveat though is that Aes Sedai pick their own Warders, and perhaps not all are good at evaluating a man's abilities. But going back again to what Agelmar said in The Eye of the World, and he said it with confidence, that the Warders were the best.

 

As far as taking on two Fades at once. Let's recall that Lan and Moiraine were in constant danger while searching for the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps Lan has not had to face two Fades alone. I tend to agree with you that it may not be possible for him to take on 3. That seems a stretch. But given that Lan and Moiraine were smart, they probably worked out a system so that he did not have to go into such a situation. Teamwork, when your partner can channel, certainly can make a huge difference.

 

I wonder if there is someone amongst the Warders who is an expert at the Quarterstaff?

[Entreri]

To take on 3 Fades at once, Lan would have to be more than Gawyn lucky.

 

You can't compare Lan fighting Fades and Rhuarc fighting Fades for one extremely important reason: Lan fights with a sword, Rhuarc a spear. Against a myrddraal, that spear is extremely inefficient. Lan and Rhuarc may be equals in fighting ability, but the nature of each respective fighting style plays a huge part in this. To be more specific, I mean Lan against 3 Fades would be a 3:5 win ratio whereas Lan against 4 would be a 1:500 ratio. As for surviving his victories against 3 myrdraal? Not likely, I'd say the ratio against 3 and surviving is 3:50 and surviving against 4 at effectively 0.

 

Valid point. The spear is a stabbing weapon and it would take many more hits to take out a Fade.

 

Still, given that nobody has tackled (dare to?) 2 Fades at once in the entire series hints at that being very difficult. According to Iturlade a Fade could take out 12 normal soldiers. I think we have been spoiled due to the fighting prowess of the main characters and most of the 2nd tire ones.

 

With Lan's suicidal attack against the Blight, he may have a chance to face off against 2. Still, I see no way he can ever win against 3.

[Entreri]

I doubt that any man can take on 2 Fades at once with the possible exception of Lan or Jearom. Nobody would be able to take on 3 at once. Each Fade appears to have the skill of a blademaster, carry's a truly lethal sword (smallest cut with kill without being Healed), plus they can take a lot of punishment (many times that of a human) before dying. We have not seen anyone in the series taking out more than 1 Fade at a time, this includes the likes of Lan, Rhuarc, Gaul, Mat, Rand and Perrin. According to Mat, you have to overwhelm the Fade before it overwhelms you.

 

That is mostly because we've never seen two fades fighting side by side. However, Gawyn beat Sleete and Marlesh at the same time, both of which I'd place above a myrddraal. Remember, he beat them both solidly several times with no losses or injuries as far as I recall. The Fades' speed is problematic though; I'd say no matter how skilled, no man can defeat four myrddraal at once. Lan could beat three Fades for the majority of the fights, but I give him an incredibly small chance to beat four at once and that would only be due to both luck and his amazing swordsmanship being at their absolute peaks. (Note: I'm only saying he could beat the three or four, he could die later from the Thakan'dar blade wounds just as easily)

 

Sleete would be able to defeat 1 Fade, I highly doubt Marlesh could. If Fades were that easy to defeat, essentially most Warders could, then they would not be that feared. Most Warders while great, are not blademaster level. If memory serves me correctly, Rhuarc and about 4 other Aiel confronted 2 Fades...Rhuarc said the 2 Fades could have killed them all, if not for Nynaeve et al and balefire. Rhuarc=Lan, prior to Moraine dying and Lan going to another level (level 99 Warder?). Rhuarc certainly would have killed his Fade, so that left 4 on 1...Thus this implies that Rhuarc could not take on 2 Fades at once, and that even with 4 Aiel on 1 Fade, it was no guarantee of victory.

 

Rhuarc is certainly top tier Aiel fighter, should be able to take on 8-9 soldiers at once, possibly 10. We saw somebody like Gaul unarmed finishing off about 8 armed Whitecloaks (him and Perrin with an axe took out a dozen, and Gaul took out most of them, Perrin was "amazed"). So I would certainly say that the very best Aiel are at or near Lan/Jearom level. Jearom having taking out 10 at once.

 

From the various fights throughout the series, I estimate:

 

1 Fade = 6 'fearless' soliders

 

1 average Warder = 3 average soliders, thus taking more than 2 to finish a Fade.

 

1 average Aiel = at least 2 average soliders, thus taking more than 3 to finish a Fade. We have seen a Fade kill 2 Aiel at once (then Mat finished it off...)

 

There is no way Lan could take on 3, let alone 4, unless he uses a bloodknife ter'angreal, even then he would get cut badly and eventually die from the 'poison' of the Fades sword well before the ter'angreal kills him.

 

Thus, even to take on two Fades at once, Lan would have to be at his peak and be lucky. Given that 2 Fades = 12 soliders and their weapons are so deadly and they are hard to kill/taking many hits.

 

To take on 3 Fades at once, Lan would have to be more than Gawyn lucky.

 

That's an interesting thought. Not all Warders are blademasters, but they are masters of whatever weapon they use. If there is an equivalent to a blademaster rank in the field of archery, for example, then I would think that a Warder whose primary expertise is with bow & arrow, then said Warder would have to be a master of that weapon. I keep going back to what Lord Agelmar said back in the first book. That the Warders are the best. This coming from a guy who has fought the Aiel, as well as various incarnations of Shadowspawn. It would only make sense that every Warder can defeat a Fade, one-on-one. What good would a Warder be if he cannot do that? His main task is to protect his Aes Sedai. The caveat though is that Aes Sedai pick their own Warders, and perhaps not all are good at evaluating a man's abilities. But going back again to what Agelmar said in The Eye of the World, and he said it with confidence, that the Warders were the best.

 

As far as taking on two Fades at once. Let's recall that Lan and Moiraine were in constant danger while searching for the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps Lan has not had to face two Fades alone. I tend to agree with you that it may not be possible for him to take on 3. That seems a stretch. But given that Lan and Moiraine were smart, they probably worked out a system so that he did not have to go into such a situation. Teamwork, when your partner can channel, certainly can make a huge difference.

 

I wonder if there is someone amongst the Warders who is an expert at the Quarterstaff?

 

Best to hit a Myrddraal from a long distance/bows. Perrin's strategy was to take them out with channelers.

 

Most of the Warders are unlikely to have any contact against Shadowspawn, somebody like Lan being the exception. There is no way an average Warder = Myrddraal. While their job is to protect AS, but that does not mean they will succeed against any foe. A Myddraal is beyond the capabilities on an average Warder.

 

Warders are the best fighting group (300-400 of them?) in the world, yes, but they are not that good. Rand for instance killed 2 of them with his bare hands, no way he could ever do that to 2 Fades. So I would say as before, 2 Warders = 1 Myrddraal.

 

There is a large gap in Warder fighting prowess, Lan very likely could have easily defeated 3 average Warders at once, if not 4, no way he could do that same to 3 or 4 Myddraal, or even 2.

At the blademaster level, there are probably no more than 10 Warders with that level of skill. In all the world, there are only 100 or so blademasters according to RJ.

There could be a couple of Brigitte like Warders, sure, but I am talking about close quarter combat.

[Hadilmir]

I guess you're right, it depends a lot on how proficient you see myrddraal. I'd expand on this, but I've already laid out how I gauge Lan's skill and a myrddraal's skill so I'd be repeating myself.

[Erunion]

Myrddraal are skilled, yes, but that is not where there advantage comes from. Their advantage in a fight comes from their latent abilities, first and foremost they inspire absolute terror. This is why a Myrddraal will consistently kill large groups of soldiers. The soldiers fear makes them far less effective in combat. Myrddraal also are very fast, and very hard to kill. What this means is that a Myrddraal will rip through any mid or low grade troops without trouble. However, a fighter that has overcome the fear disadvantage will be far more effective. The warder-bond gives several significant bonuses, including reflexes and mental fortitude. As such, I would place the average warder as able to take out a Fade 1 on 1, but be unable to wreck the sheer havoc a fade can cause to a line of battle.

The Aiel are at a significant disadvantage when fighting Myrddraal as they rely on stabbing weapons which do not inflict enough trauma to the Fade in order to take them out with a single hit. Combine this with their lack of armour, and it is a testament to the Aiel's skill that they are able to kill Fade's at all.

 

Finally, speaking from seven years of martial arts experience, the results of past matches have almost nothing to do with how a one on one match will turn out. Yes, some fighters are better than others, however, every single day is different, every single match is different. A fighter will not be able to repeat results consistently on differing days, as the factors that go into a match are innumerable. While it is possible to judge with relative accuracy how a fight will turn out, nothing is certain and luck is incredibly important.

For example, Gawyn shouldn't have been able to take out three bloodknives, but he got very, very lucky. He was just skilled enough to stay alive, than hit successfully while slicing blind. Motivation, desperation and adrenaline also make an incredible difference to a fight, as does mindset (hence the reliance of so many WOT fighters on The Void in order to give them a reliable combative mindset). Note the Ryne vs. Lan fight, Lan had the motivation to win the fight even though he was slightly outclassed (at the time) in terms of skill.

 

Further, the fighting styles and skill-sets of people will vary greatly, even among blademasters who all use the same base forms. I've always seen Lan as being the best Shadowspawn fighter ever (because he was raised to fight in the blight, and has been doing so since becoming a man). Further, his experience will make him far superior for dealing with unusual circumstances (such as fighting against someone wielding a quarterstaff). Most of the main characters are trained primarily to fight someone else with a sword one on one (especially Galad/Gawyn, who trained this way in the Tower). Characters with significant battlefield experience, like Lan or Mat+memories will be far more effective in more hectic situations, even if they lose in a relaxed, one on one sparring match. The reason that Mat was able to handle Gawyn/Galad so handily (and likely the reason Jearome was defeated by random farmer) is that they tried to engage Mat as they would a traditional sword wielding opponent. Even if you technically have far more skill or talent, facing a situation or fighter which you aren't used to dealing with will often result in a sudden, surprising defeat.

 

To answer the original post, I believe that Myrddraal would be able to defeat Blood Knives consistently for these reasons, first Fades do not rely on light receptors for vision (how they do see at all is a mystery) and are therefore immune to the Blood Knives shadow-blurring effect. Secondly, Fades are incredibly resistant to damage and would likely laugh at poison (seeing as their own blood is incredibly corrosive), negating the Blood Knives second strength. Finally, the bloodknives increased speed is described much as myrddraals own incredible speed, leading me to believe that they are roughly equal in speed. As such, the Fade's latent physical abilities would allow it to overwhelm a blood knife in most situations.

 

As a blademaster, through his tactical ability and innate skill, can kill a Myrddraal (therefore it is more than likely that Gawyn can).

Therefore the order should be Gawyn>Fade>Blood Knife.

 

Something else to remember about bloodknives, they are not traditional fighters, their skill is assassination, this makes them completely different from normal combatants and they shouldn't be measured against blademasters.

 

To summarize:

In a "fair" duel (a set ring, little to no armour, no mounts, flat ground, sunny day /etc), the Blademaster will beat just about anything, save for a skilled fighter using techniques or tools that the Blademaster would be unfamiliar with.

In a battle, the Myrddraal is likely the most effective, as he can single handedly break a line of battle using his fear incurring stare + his skill and speed.

In an "unfair" duel (messy conditions, no set ring, anything goes) a Blood Knife will beat most anything they want to kill (save, perhaps, Myrddraal who are likely immune to their near-invisibility), as they can sneak around and perform a true assassination. (The only reason that I think the Bloodknives lost to Gawyn is that they didn't expect him, or anything like him. They are not trained to face a soldier in a duel, even if they would be good in one, they are trained to kill secretly and from behind).

An experienced, intelligent fighter (not necessarily a blademaster, but could be) such as Lan or Mat will beat almost anything in almost any situation, except perhaps a traditional "fair" duel, where they would be roughly equal to their opponents.

 

 

EDIT: I wrote this after a very, very long night of studying, so please forgive the grammatical/form errors and reuse of words/etc.

[marathdamane]

One thing that just crossed my mind is this; two people are not trained specifically to work together when big sharp knives are involved they can almost hinder each other more then help if they're going after a single skilled fighter. A two on one sword fight will either be won immediately by the "two" or will become a "one on one" sword fight after a few committed blows fly. Flanking someone swinging a 4 foot blade is actually pretty difficult if you don't start in flanking positions. If the "one" is smart, then he will take the advantage by acting first and going on the offensive rather then being on the defensive.

 

In fact, if I properly recall Gawyns fight with the Bloodknives then I'd point out that his mindset and actions airing on the defensive is the mistake that imo almost cost him his life. The more I think about it the more I must agree that Gawyn is a lucky man indeed.

[hawkeye31]

One thing that just crossed my mind is this; two people are not trained specifically to work together when big sharp knives are involved they can almost hinder each other more then help if they're going after a single skilled fighter. A two on one sword fight will either be won immediately by the "two" or will become a "one on one" sword fight after a few committed blows fly. Flanking someone swinging a 4 foot blade is actually pretty difficult if you don't start in flanking positions. If the "one" is smart, then he will take the advantage by acting first and going on the offensive rather then being on the defensive.

 

In fact, if I properly recall Gawyns fight with the Bloodknives then I'd point out that his mindset and actions airing on the defensive is the mistake that imo almost cost him his life. The more I think about it the more I must agree that Gawyn is a lucky man indeed.

 

Except that Gawyn couldn't go on the offensive - he had to keep himself between the Blood Knives and Egwene. But I agree with you - Gawyn was plain lucky to survive as long as he did