How Many Trollics in Shayol Ghul ect.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's another of the inconsistencies.

 

Aginor and Balthamel are described as being as decrepit as they are being due to how close to the"surface" they were, and Time having worked upon their bodies moreso than on the bodies of any of the others.

 

Yet, Ishamael is supposed to have been the one who, at least in some instances could actually get out and walk around the world. That implies he was closest to the "surface" of all. Yet, he hasn't aged appreciably when we first encounter him. Jordan, himself, says in the answer you cite that Ishy's knowledge of the world is less complete than that of Aginor and Balthamel. That implies he was more deeply buried and less aware of the passing years.

 

Ishy seems to be the guy who is in two places at once. That's highly inconsistent with anyone or anything else in WOT and makes him a very special case indeed.

[Luckers]

Ishamael's freedom is strong. He was able to physically kill Alviarin's predessesor, manifest as a strong enough figure to look human while manipulating Artur Hawkwing, and retain enough influnce over a long enough consecutive time to set up the infrastructure of the Black Ajah and other darkfriend groups.

 

It is, however, sporadic. He is free enough every 40 years to manifest physically, but at other times, it would seem, he was held just as strongly, avoiding the effects of time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What the interval between his periods of freedom might be is very much an open question.

 

What seems fairly certain is that he was active for a continuous 40 year stretch during Hawkwing's reign.

 

He may have been continuously active for the last 40 years as well. At least certain DF reported encountering him 40 years past.

 

Too much about Ishy is simply unexplained and unexplainable.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jordan, himself, says in the answer you cite that Ishy's knowledge of the world is less complete than that of Aginor and Balthamel.

 

No, actually he was referring to the ability to "zoom in" and view the Pattern in specific ways, that Aginor and Balthamel had by being bound outside but close to the Pattern. Since Ishamael was only partly bound, and partly in the world, he did not share that particular ability fully. But overall he had the greatest knowledge of the world of any of the Forsaken, because he experienced it for the whole 3000 years.

 

 

 

Yet, he hasn't aged appreciably when we first encounter him.

 

The Dark One made the Forsaken immortal, rememeber? Aginor and Balthamel's aging was a function of the how they were caught in the trap. Near the surface but not out. In Ishamael's case, extensive use of the True Power for 3000 years trumped being marginally caught, in the physical sense. He wasn't exactly in great shape, physically.

 

Ishy seems to be the guy who is in two places at once. That's highly inconsistent with anyone or anything else in WOT and makes him a very special case indeed.

 

Indeed, and that very specialness is what allowed him to provide leadership to the Shadow for 3000 years.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's not special. That's just a very clumsy attempt to cover some really big plot holes.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's not special. That's just a very clumsy attempt to cover some really big plot holes.

 

I'm curious ... which holes are you talking about?

[Luckers]

Yeah i dont see any problems with Ishy's freedom.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We are told, unequivocally, that the Bore was sealed and 13 of the most powerful Forsaken were bound within in the process.

 

Oops. If all 13 are really bound then there's nobody to cause mischief but the mad male AS, and they'll be dead before long. So, OK, let's make one of the 13 only partially sealed away. We'll gloss over the part about how a relatively weak human could only be partially bound while the supremely powerful DO is stymied, nobody will notice.

 

Now, we've got somebody to cause strife and woe throughout the Third Age. We'll just ignore the metaphysics about how it all is supposed to work out that way.

 

Ishy is the only being in all of time, space, and fantastic literature to ever achieve the feat of being partially pregnant. He's a true ring-tailed wonder, he is.

[KaptainKaos]

I'm wondering when Ishamael was in two places at once, he was either in the Bore or out never both, not that hard to comprehend. We don't know the specifics of where Ishamael was in the Bore he could have been just as deep as Lanfear and Demandred when he was in the Bore meaning he only aged when he wasn't in the Bore explaining why he wasn't aged as much as Aginor and Balthamel. Ishamael didn't necessarily have any control of when he left the Bore and when he had to return the Dark One himself most likely had the ability to get Ishamael out in some way which means it doesn't matter if Ishamael was closer to the world to see what was happening or to understand the passing of time like Aginor an Balthamel, he simply was out of the Bore at certain times and in the Bore at others. Robert Jordan started out the first book of the series with a cameo appearance of Ishamael establishing that he wasn't your run of the mill everyday Forsaken. I just don't see any inconsistencies, there are things about Ishamael that are unexplained, in fact there are things about just about every character in the book that are unexplained but we have to connect the dots so to speak to understand. That is the beauty of this type of writing all the details are 'woven' together rather than just listed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

At the time we first meet Ishy, we know nothing of the sealing; nothing of any of the details. It isn't really until the only semi-official BWB that we begin to learn those.

 

So far as we can tell during the Prologue to "The Eye of the World", Ishamael is just another bad guy.

 

From what we can tell from that Prologue, there was no sealing. Ishy is moving freely about, exercising his full power. Things were bad and getting worse.

 

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow, and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

 

That sounds neither like any sealing nor any binding I've ever heard about. That sounds like evil with the whip hand. Yet, everything that follows talks about the Bore being sealed and the Forsaken being bound.

[KaptainKaos]

I suggest a re-read or maybe a few re-reads simply because I am currently re-reading for who knows how many times it has been and I still am finding out things that Robert Jordan did in the first book that foreshadow and connect with things that don't happen until the much later books. Look at it this way, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the completely explained version for regular humans in this world that are extremely lucky and can do things that no one is supposed to be able to do, this is without the direct aid of the Dark One. Ishamael isn't exactly human but he is just another version of this type of person that can do things no one else can except he is on the opposing side of the spectrum and he has the direct aid of the Dark One. Not too much of a stretch. This from Bob T Dwarf:

 

"We are told, unequivocally, that the Bore was sealed and 13 of the most powerful Forsaken were bound within in the process."

 

Is most definitely not a true statement. In case you weren't sure what unequivocally means- having only one possible meaning or interpretation. If you read the first book in the first ten pages it tells you Ishamael is out of the Bore after Lews Therin goes insane and kills his family and loved ones making the above statement by Bob to be impossible especially since we are shown this before the above statement is even mentioned at all (So we should know when the statement is first made that there must be holes because Ishamael is introduced as himself "The Betrayer of Hope" as Lews Therin recalls.) If you remember who said the statement about the Dark One and Forsaken being bound the most in the first book it was the village folk who got all of their knowledge from Gleemen and Peddlers. Moiraine constantly tries to lead them away from leaning on that as a totem and says several times throughout the book that the Dark One is touching the world. Rand also believed that Fades were ten feet tall and Perrin thought Tinkers were going to steal their things when Egwene, Elyas, and himself camped with them. In this series you have to pretty much consider nothing to be unequivocal until it is shown to be by action especially when it involves the Shadow.

[Bob T Dwarf]

From the BWB - page 47:

While the exact events of that day can never be known, some of the details have survived. The Dragon and his companions arrived at Shayol Ghul to discover an unexpected bonus; a gathering of the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai was taking place at the Pit of Doom deep within the mountain at the same moment, perhaps summoned by the Dark One for a conference. The Companions struck quickly and mercilessly, sealing the Bore safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared. Forty-five of the Companions were killed in the battle, and apparently the warmen took a much higher percentage of casualties. The strike trapped all the attending Forsaken within the sealing, thus removing with one stroke the Shadow's touch and his leadership in this world. With the seals safely placed, the cuendillar disks were carefully hidden.

 

If that's not unequivocal, nothing ever has been or will be. [empahsis added]

[Jellybelly]

You just refuse to see sense, don't you, Bob? You are writing off one of the most crucial, most important elements of The Wheel of Time as a consistency error? On the basis of what? The splitting of hairs? The fact that Ishamael was only partially bound is one of the most decisive factors of TWOT, instrumental in the Shadow's progression towards Tarmon Gai'don. And you think that Robert Jordan has not really thought that through?

 

I do not want you to interpret this as an attack on you personally, but through the course of this discussion, you have managed to consistently turn a blind eye to the arguments put before you. Your basic argument seems to be that "the books state that the Forsaken were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and thus Ishamael cannot possibly have been free. This is a slip-up." It is a ridiculous argument, as we have seen him to be free multiple times, and the books are strewn with references to this. When the books present you with the contradiction of a common belief, it does not prove that the author has forgotten his own premises, but that reality is different from legend.

 

To prove your position you give a paragraph from the BWB. A book that is written as a fictional history, and not only as a work of reference to the series. Common mistakes would be included. However, if you had leafed through the consecutive pages you would have found this:

 

When the Dragon led the final strike against the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, Ishamael may have been in some way only partially trapped by the seal on the Bore[...]

 

Also, you claim that the semi-official BWB is the first source to give us an explanation of Ishamael's condition. This is a glaring mistake. Hints have been scattered all over the books, and the first one is the very first thing you read. That we do not know anything about the sealing at that time is completely irrelevant, it does not change the fact that the sealing happened. Jordan is an author who shows rather than tell, and the prologue to TEotW is supposed to make you feel somewhat bewildered. We learn about the sealing in due time. He could not cram everything we needed to know into ten fucking pages.

 

That sounds neither like any sealing nor any binding I've ever heard about. That sounds like evil with the whip hand. Yet, everything that follows talks about the Bore being sealed and the Forsaken being bound.

So, since the sealing of the Dark One was not mentioned in this poetic epigram, it did not happen? Jesus, what are you aiming at with these insane arguments?

[KaptainKaos]

While the exact events of that day can never be known, some of the details have survived.

 

In this part of your post is where you answer yourself. The point is while you are using the BWB which is irrelevent since the information in the BWB is given to us throughout the books anyway I am using the first ten pages of the first book of the actual series. Instead of trying to be steadfast in your disassembling of the series try to be steadfast in reading the first few pages of the first book. Then I suggest continuing on with the actual series instead of summaries and guides. These books can be interpreted but only to a certain extent you cannot change the words that have been written to mean something completely different just to suit your arguments. Remember there have been several 'facts' stated depending on the point of view and then disproved from another point of view it was said and taught early in the books that once severed from the Source you could not be healed, it has been done. Example from Eye of the World it was said that when the Eye of the World was made a person could only visit it once, Moiraine went twice. It was said from many sources that Saidin could not be cleansed, Rand did it in Winter's Heart. Another one from Eye of the World, it was said that at the borders of Shadar Logoth Mordeth would consume the soul completely of the one he took over and become in control of their body but Fain was not consumed completely.

 

How is it so much of a stretch to apply the common theme of all of these situations to the one at hand? There are constantly things stated in the series that are thought to be true but that is all they are meant to be "thought to be true" because later they are proved otherwise, it's all about the twists in the plot and what you are complaining about is just another of those surprise twists necessary for the flow of the series. What is so hard to comprehend???

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nothing is at all hard to comprehend.

 

What I'm saying is that some of those twists you're so fond of strain the fabric of credulity a little too far for even a work of fantasy. The partial trapping of Ishy being foremost among them.

 

Yes, the BWB is a fictional history of a fictional time. At many places it states conclusions based on what can be interpreted from the few records that remain at the supposed time of it's writing. Many of those conclusion are shown to be wrong throughout the books.

 

What it does in the passage I quoted is state that something is fact. In order for even a fictional historian to claim something is a fact, he or she must be in possession of evidence that backs up that claim. Therefore, there has to be something dating from the AoL that shows, without doubt, that the Bore was sealed and all 13 of the Forsaken present were sealed along with it.

 

As for the first pages of tEotW, all that is mentioned is the taint and a "futile attack on the Great Lord of the Dark!"

 

What all of that suggests to me is that everything we thought we knew about the sealing of the Bore is false, no matter what evidence might have existed to justify the claims made in the BWB. I doubt that Ishy was ever sealed away at all. There may have been periods when the DO's influence and power waned due to whatever happened in the "sealing", and that could have caused Ishy to retreat to SG in order to hang on to his immortality until the DO's power waxed again, but Ishy himself was never sealed off from the world.

 

That, at least has a degree of believability. What we've been told throughout the books about being "partially trapped", does not.

[Wise One]

Erm, the sealing happened, and Ishamael was partially sealed, and we know this based on solid, undeniable POVs from people who were there. The other Forsaken were all definitely bound, as they have thought about it in their POVs. And at least one of them (sorry, can't remember the book or the character, there are too many for me) specifically refers to Ishamael's 'half-bound' nature. How can the Forsaken possibly be wrong about this? Why would anyone lie to them? Who is capable of lying to them about this? Its pretty clear to me the whole of Ishamael's half-bound theory is true.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It may well BE true in the sense that it is exactly what Jordan meant to happen. It just is neither logical nor consistent... even with a fictional reality.

 

Things either happen or they don't. Nothing kinda happens.

 

All of the characters, the Forsaken included, believe many things that are objectively untrue. Just because they believe something, does that mean that we must be equally as credulous?

[Wise One]

I am all for not taking anything as fact just because someone says so. But all of the Forsaken individually believe something that no one and nothing would have logically had any motive to change.

 

And why can Ishamael not be half-bound? It makes perfect logical sense for him to be able to break free periodically and then be sucked back into the Bore if the sealing wasn't perfect (which it obviously wasn't, hence the current crisis). After all, the Bore isn't a place inside the world, it exists outside. So for Ishamael to be sucked out of the world into a hellish prison periodically is perfectly in sink with the rest of the established way the pattern works.

[KaptainKaos]

All of the things you (Bob) have said are based on your own misunderstanding or lack of understanding. What exactly are you questioning? That Ishamael should have been sealed and it is impossible that he wasn't, that it makes no sense how Ishamael was free at certain times, that it is unfair that Ishamael was walking free, seriously what is there to question? We know that the thirteen Forsaken were intially bound in the Bore and as far as we know Balthamel and Aginor were closest to the world and could see time passing in a way. We know that periodically Ishamael somehow escaped or was released from the Bore due to the incomplete sealing of the Bore (if it was complete Aginor and Balthamel wouldn't have been able to notice time passing at all and the Dark One would not be able to touch the world so none of the seven seals could have been broken.) We know of individual events that Ishamael most likely influenced and the effect of those events on the world. Is it something here that you don't follow or somewhere else?

 

For further information here is an explaination from one of the Wheel of Time related websites:

 

Was Ishamael really bound?

 

The widespread belief in Randland is that all thirteen Forsaken were imprisoned with the DO when the Bore was sealed by LTT and the Hundred Companions. However, this doesn't seem to be entirely true. Ishamael appears bodily to LTT in the prologue to TEOTW. We know that he must really be there, because he cures LTT's insanity so that he will realize what he has done. From what we know of how channeling works, he could not have done this if he was only some kind of astral projection. That scene takes place shortly after the sealing of the Bore. So, Ishy was not bound right when the DO and the other Forsaken were sealed away.

 

Many events throughout the Third Age bear Ishy's fingerprints-- the Trolloc Wars (the Trollocs invading Manetheren carried the banner of Ba'alzamon), the creation and continued existence of the Black Ajah, the War of the Hundred Years. Ishy claimed to have influenced Hawkwing [TEOTW: 14, The Stag and Lion, 172]. The Third Age shows a pattern of humanity being kept in a state of disarray. Whenever the people showed signs of becoming unified (Compact of Ten Nations, Hawkwing's empire), some cataclysmic event occurred to split things up again. This worked out too well for the Shadow to be mere coincidence. Clearly, Ishy was active and in control of the Shadow's forces for quite a bit of, if not all of, the Third Age.

 

Then we have the research of the post-breaking historian Aran son of Malan son of Senar (presumably an Ogier), as described in [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 52]. This person claims that "there were sightings of, even encounters with, Ishamael after the Bore was sealed, in fact perhaps as much as forty years after." The proposed theory is that "it may have taken some years for Ishamael to be drawn fully into the trap with the other Forsaken.... Ishamael might well be thrown out of the prison holding the others and drawn back again on some regular cycle."

 

Next there is the bit in [Guide: 12, The Reign of the High King, 114-5] about Hawkwing's advisor Jalwin Moerad. Moerad was a mysterious, shady character who insinuated himself into Hawkwing's court in FY 973. Moerad exhibited "frequent long absences, a volatile temper, and a temperament that more than one observer recorded as 'more than half insane.'" Shortly after Moerad became a counselor (late summer FY 974), Hawkwing abruptly turned against the AS (who had previously had a very close relationship with Hawkwing). Moerad was contemptuous of AS. After Hawkwing's death, Moerad advised the three nobles who "came the closest to seizing the whole of Hawkwing's empire," and all three of them met untimely deaths. Finally, "Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later." The personality, the lack of aging, and the forty years business, along with Ishy's claim that he influenced Hawkwing make it clear that Moerad was Ishamael.

 

Finally and most tellingly, Josh Hildreth points out Moghedien's musings while holding Nynaeve and Elayne in thrall in Tanchico, after Ny and El tell her about the two Forsaken Rand fought in the Stone of Tear:

 

"So Be'lal is dead. The other sounds like Ishamael, to me. All his pride at being only half-caught, whatever the price - there was less human left in him than any of us when I saw him again; I think he half-believed he was the Great Lord of the Dark - all his three thousand years of machinations, and it comes to an untaught boy hunting him down."

[TSR: 46, Veils, 526]

So, it seems like Ishy was somehow "partially bound." That is, he was not completely locked away in the Dungeon Dimension with the rest of the Forsaken and the DO. He was definitely free right after the sealing of the Bore, and was most likely free at various points during the Third Age. Obviously, he was also the first of the Forsaken to be completely freed of the seals, by a long shot.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's the internal inconsistency.

 

Take transmigration. Jordan handles that in an elegant and internally consistent fashion. A dies. A's soul is transmigrated into B's body. The resulting entity is neither wholly A nor wholly B but a new individual now known as C. Logical, believable, and entirely internally consistent.

 

Here we have Ishy. He's bound along with everybody else in a single instant during "the sealing.". But, wait, no he isn't, because a matter of minutes, hours, or at most days later he's in LTT's parlor, taunting him about his "futile attack."

 

That's not a seal, it's a seive. There is no internal consistency. He was either sealed or he wasn't. Either we should be talking about the seiving of the Bore, or we should be talking about how Ishy managed to avoid being sealed when everyone and all the evidence said he was.

[KaptainKaos]

Refer to my above post, I edited and added a bit from a WOT website. Additionally what your are implying is a fundamentalist view on something that isn't fundamental at all the writing is complex and can be hard to follow. In this series there doesn't have to be a black or white. Look at saidin and saidar which seem to be black and white but then there is the True Power too an exception. No just because you say it must be Ishamael doesn't have to be either completely bound or completely free with no other options, hah, it has been made obvious that those two options aren't the only ones, read above.

[Jellybelly]

There is no internal inconsistency. It only shows that what happened to the other Forsaken did not happen to Ishamael.

 

What do we know about the Seal on the Bore? In its most basic form it is a weave, likely of massive proportions, since it has the capability to seal the Dark One away from reality. We also now that it is very possible to tamper with and influence weaves. It has been done countless times in the course of the books. Fireballs have fizzled out harmlessly, weaves have been cut, gateways have been unravelled, etc. It is very likely that the Dark One lashing out against the weave of the Seal as it settled on the Bore is what caused the tainting of Saidin.

 

We know that random and unpredictable things happen when weaves are tampered with. We saw it when the gateway exploded in Ebou Dar/Andor. Who is to say what could have happened if, say, Ishamael was channeling the True Power against the weave as it closed on the Bore. We know from Demandred's point of view that the results indeed are unpredictable when the True Power interacts with the One Power. Added to this, who is to say what could happen if Ishamael was channeling the True Power against the Seal as it was settling, simultaneously as the Dark One struck against saidin?

 

A partial entrapment is not so unlikely to me. To me Bob misses the mark by a long shot with his categorical dismissal of Ishamael's fate as unlogical.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It could be that Ishy was making a face with his eyes crossed and, as a result, never perceived the seal at all. Not believing it was there, it wasn't...for him.

 

Lot's of things are "possible" in a fantasy. Things that are internally consistent and believable take a little more work is all.

 

The story of Ishy, as it is presented in the books, is neither internally consistent, observant of any rules of logic, nor believable in its current form.

 

There is either a whole lot more to that story or a whole lot less. As it stands now, Ishy, a mere mortal, has simultaneously occupied more states of being than the DO, a godlike entity if not an actual god.

 

He's here, he's there, he's everywhere... so beware.

[Jellybelly]

You know, you make yourself look quite ridiculous the way you conduct a discussion. You throw and unsubstantiated opinion out in the air, hold it as common sense and indisputable fact, and then refuse to listen or acknowledge arguments that are in fact, backed by logic. I find it amusing that you cry out for "internal logic" in the way Ishamael was only partially bound, and then fail to deliver one logical argument to support your claims.

 

Using the True Power against a massive onslaught of the One Power could hardly be likened to crossing one's eyes. You could do better. Even in a polemic sense, your last post is no good.

[KaptainKaos]

From Bob T Dwarf:

"Things that are internally consistent and believable take a little more work is all."

 

I'm confused, you would actually believe all of the stuff in these books took place but the part about Ishamael being partially bound makes you question whether it really took place or not, wow. It's obvious to anyone who reads these posts that your opinion comes from lack of knowledge or you simply don't care to see things any other way than your own. I don't know if you read the books enough to understand this but you would fit perfectly among the Questioners of the Children of Light because you believe you already know the outcome before even listening to any of the facts besides your own (if that's what they can be called).