Amayar mass suicide

[Rumor]

Sorry if this has been discussed before that I didn't see, but I have been really curious as to any further purpose to the Amayar all committing suicide (other than to be another thorn in Rand's side in getting the Sea Folk to do their job). I cannot really think of anything, so was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts.

 

Also, the only reason I can think of Alviarin having gone to Tremalking (before Saidin was cleansed I believe) would have something to do with the Choedan Kal there, but nothing seem to come of it. I vaguely remember her thinking her trip was futile or a waste of time or something, but could she have had some other purpose there?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry if this has been discussed before that I didn't see, but I have been really curious as to any further purpose to the Amayar all committing suicide (other than to be another thorn in Rand's side in getting the Sea Folk to do their job). I cannot really think of anything, so was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts.

 

I'm not sure that it has been discussed before, but I personally think it is part of the Dark One's plan to break loose. It is very speculative, but reducing the total number of conscious threads in the Pattern may help him be able to break the Wheel. If it is so, it would explain the reasons for Semirhage's actions plunging Seanchan into unbridled civil war, the possibility that Graendal caused unrest in Shara, and the Forsaken's orders to forment discord and chaos in Randland. It would also explain why Randland has had a declining population since the War of the Hundred Years, despite having a large amount of unihabited, but very inhabitable, land.

 

As to how it was brought about, we have some circumstantial evidence that Ishamael tampered with prophecy in Seanchan ... he may have set up the Amayar's prophecy about the end of Illusion.

 

Also, the only reason I can think of Alviarin having gone to Tremalking (before Saidin was cleansed I believe) would have something to do with the Choedan Kal there, but nothing seem to come of it. I vaguely remember her thinking her trip was futile or a waste of time or something, but could she have had some other purpose there?

 

She did indeed go to see the Choedan Kal there, but it was after saidin was cleansed, and she saw it melted. It was a waste in the sense that it didn't help her to find out what the great sa'angreal had been used for. She also visited the former site of Shadar Logoth.

[Luckers]

I don't go as far as Robert, but i too think that the End of Illusion was a false prophecy planted to forment chaos... though in truth you have to wonder how the shadow knew the Choedan Kal was going to melt, and moreover why Ishy didn't act to stop it long since if he knew.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It may be a case of Ishy altering rather than planting prophecy. Maybe the Amayar already had a prophecy about the Choedan Kal melting, and Ishy just changed what they should do afterward. Also, Moridin did know in advance that Rand would use the Choedan Kal to try to cleanse the taint. Maybe he knew in part because of the prophecy he changed?

[Luckers]

That seemed to me that he was informed by Torval and the others, and then connected it with the fact that Rand had the Choedan Kal after Lanfear was recycled. Recall he got her to tell the Forsaken.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That may have just informed him of the timing. It seemed to me that he had Cyndane tell the others so that he could demonstrate his control over her. But, as you would say .... meh

[Rumor]

All of that makes sense, but I was thinking more along the lines of some good purpose that may come of the event (not sappy good obviously...after all, an entire race committed suicide); more like along the lines of a counter-purpose (the wheel weaves...stuff).

 

For instance, when Liandrin betrayed Egwene, Nynaeve, et al to eliminate some of Rand's support base and in the end the result of that betrayal was that his support was where he needed them to be. Another example, the Aiel war...it's perfectly possible (though not necessary) that Ishy influenced Laman into cutting down the tree through his dream abilities in order to foment the same kind of population decline you discuss above; which was accomplished while simultaneously prophecy was fulfilled. I think there are numerous examples of these kinds of counter-purposes to the "bad" guys' actions.

 

So I'm just wondering if there is one to the Amayar suicides...perhaps despite Rand's orders, the sea folk will send a small contingent of ships to Tremalking and that this will be a necessary event (I can't imagine a good reason why, however). Perhaps it will tie into post-TG events rather than be something relevant to the battle. Or maybe the island just needed to be freed of people so someone else can take up residence there (pretty callous of the wheel, but...). Am I thinking too much into this or does anybody have any other ideas of what the additional consequences of the mass suicide will be?

[RobertAlexWillis]

There's nothing I can think of that would fit those conditions. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.

[mikey sedai]

i believe that the whole mass suicide thing is intended to burst the sea folk bubble.

before this they've always been an aloof race, and arrogant in their dealings with others. you only need to read of their dealings with anyone other than their coramoor to see this. add to this what the BWB tells us of their relationship with the amayar (sp?)

having an entire race of people , who they lived with, kill themselves without the sea folk knowing anything about it should humble them somewhat, and make them realise that they need to take more of an interest in other peoples.

this event should be the catalyst that makes them less insular and finally ready to help rand save the world - a conclusion that i couldn't see us getting to before the LB any other way!

[Asajin]

i believe that the whole mass suicide thing is intended to burst the sea folk bubble.

before this they've always been an aloof race' date=' and arrogant in their dealings with others. you only need to read of their dealings with anyone other than their coramoor to see this. add to this what the BWB tells us of their relationship with the amayar (sp?)

having an entire race of people , who they lived with, kill themselves without the sea folk knowing anything about it should humble them somewhat, and make them realise that they need to take more of an interest in other peoples.

this event should be the catalyst that makes them less insular and finally ready to help rand save the world - a conclusion that i couldn't see us getting to before the LB any other way![/quote']

 

While i think that he Amayar suicide would humble the sea folk i think RJ added it impromptu as the only previous mention about the Amayr was in a few Sea Folk povs

[Luckers]

Thats because no one else knows the difference between an Amayar and an Atha'an Miere. References to them as Sea Folk have been numerous.

[mikey sedai]

we've never really seen in this series how actions taken with good intentions can have far reaching dire consequences. as we know the road to hell is supposedly paved with them.

rand was supposed to heal saidin (the healing the cuttings of hope), which in turn led to the mass suicide, due to their prophecy. he was trying to do what was right , but it led to the death of an entire race. jeez, i hope he doesn't find out! he'll be murder to live with after that.

but hopefully it will lead to the re-instigation of the sea folk into the world as a whole.

i don't think that RJ just thew that in there off the cuff. we've known about the amayar for a good few books now - and we knew that they must have some role to play due to a POV. POV's are never that random. the fact that other Randlanders knew nothing about them just goes to show how much the sea folk did cut themselves off.

i'm expecting alot of changed attitudes in the next book. there'll be lots of brushing each other hair to make up for past attitudes (or whatever girlie things the sea folk do that they can drop into conversation every 5 minutes.) and elayne will take it in her stride in her regal and slightly self righteous manner, and find a way to take advantage of them.

[TheDiceAgain...]

I'm of the opinion that this is going to cause a major issue with the Sea Folk. In a very negative sense. If and when the Sea Folk figure out that the Coramoor was (by extention, at least) the cause of the mass suicide, they're more than likely going to be rather miffed, to put it nicely.

 

Some people seem to think that this will bring the Athan'an'Miere out of their shells in a good way. I think that the exact oposite may be true...

[Taishar Manetheren]

Personally i think that they deserved to die.

If an entire nation killed it self because of a prophesy about a statue that melts then they are all crazy and stupied!

I mean common , not one of them was smart enough to think "well i dont care about that prophecy im not going to kill myself!"

If it was me i wouldnt kill myself even is it was the end of the world...

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

Personally i think that they deserved to die.

If an entire nation killed it self because of a prophesy about a statue that melts then they are all crazy and stupied!

I mean common , not one of them was smart enough to think "well i dont care about that prophecy im not going to kill myself!"

If it was me i wouldnt kill myself even is it was the end of the world...

 

Think differently my friend. You've seen the Matrix haven't you? Extrapolate from that, and what the Amayar believed about the world being an illusion.

[Taishar Manetheren]

Its not exactly the same. in the matrix the only poeple who know about their prophecy where out of the "illusion world" and their prophecy didnt include commiting suicide.

And the man of the prophecy (Neo) had the a lot of doubts himself and a hard time believing that he himself was the one.

The amayar all did it!! not one man thought "maybe i should stay alive to tell about what happend here write a book about it and make a fortune!?!"

 

it just bothers me...

[Luckers]

pre-industiralist societies utilize religion as a sop for the difficulties of the world. Its a fact. If they stop believing then their lives suddenly become much mroe painful for the fact that they don't have a point to them.

 

Religious Hysteria has done some fairly massive things in the past. Combine that with the fact that these people actually have verifiable proof their prophecies are coming to fruition... Of course they'll follow through. The failure of reason in the face of religion, added to even the tiniest part being proven true and they'll assume its all true. They almost have to.

[Taishar Manetheren]

Thats what im saying!

they are all crazy and fanatic and i dont care that they died.

[t_6005]

Thats what im saying!

they are all crazy and fanatic and i dont care that they died.

It appears to be impossible to argue with you in any logical way.

[Asajin]

Thats what im saying!

they are all crazy and fanatic and i dont care that they died.

 

Not to create a flame fest but if you do not care then why are you on a thread thats trying to find out the significance of an event that you can't be bothered with?

[Taishar Manetheren]

Cant a guy just say what he thinks anymore?

I just gave you my honest opinion...

[Asajin]

Cant a guy just say what he thinks anymore?

I just gave you my honest opinion...

 

And I just asked you an honest question

[murali284]

Heres an idea.

The pattern is not intrinsicaly good or evil. This means that the total amount of evil in the world is always a constant. That no matter what you do the good done will balance the evil. The only way to improve the world is to remove the Dark Ones influence by properly sealing him up. so that it is like in the age of legends where the world was mostly good util the dark on was freed.

 

By cleansng saidin of the taint, he created a lot of good. But the pattern needs to balance. The death of the amayar provides the balance

[liatildina]

I like that idea murali284. If the balance in the pattern between good and evil is achieved slightly through these deaths, then the sacrifice of the Amayar is a bit easier for me to digest.

 

Even in a fantasy the thought of an entire people killing themselves is not an easy concept. Humble the Atha'an Miere that remains to be seen, piss them off so they are there at the last battle for their revenge in honor of the Amayar, that I hope to read about one day.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

There needs to be more work done on the Sea Folk. I don't even think three Sea Folk men have been named. They're just there. Like tinkers.