Masema is a Wilder

[CrazyMike]

Masema must be a Wilder and able to channel ,,, he must be channeling Spirit weaves to make people follow him and be rabidly loyal to him,,, mybe he knows he is channeling Spirit Weaves and hopes to get close enough to Rand to be able to proslitize him (make him a follower)

[Luckers]

I doubt it. Zealots are a fairly common occurence in human society. Masema hardly needs the power to achieve his ends, just the rabid belief in his own correctness, and the slight suspicion that his wrong, which when combined with the first results in the need to forcibly convert all others to his beliefs.

 

In any case, Masema is old... likely too old not to be showing signs of the physical rotting of the taint. Finally both the Asha'men have spent time around him, so unless Masema learnt how to hide his ability, its simply impossible.

[CrazyMike]

doubt it. Zealots are a fairly common occurence in human society.

 

Yes and their movements build up over time , and they are always very charismatic ,,, several years of time and very Charismatic ,,, Masema's Movement has sprung up full blown in mere months of time, and , lets face it, Masema was not and is not very Charismatic, not even a little bit.

Masema hardly needs the power to achieve his ends, just the rabid belief in his own correctness, and the slight suspicion that his wrong, which when combined with the first results in the need to forcibly convert all others to his beliefs.

 

While true of most zealots Masema has not been slowly growing into a religious movement Masema's cult sprang into being almost overnight and swept up thousands of men ,,, why ,,, because he worked a power over them ,,, Masema is definitely a Dark Friend ,,, could his personal Charisma be due to the influences of the Shadow,,, I do not think so,,, I believe RAND al'Thor worked the Power on Masema in their final confrontation and triggered the Power in Masema...

 

In any case,

Masema is old... likely too old not to be showing signs of the physical rotting of the taint.

 

Masema did not come to the power until Confronted by RAND al'Thor , so Masema has not been Channeling the Power for a very long time, in fact less time than Rand,,, and Masema does not use the power often, he does not chose to use the power at all, he is a Wilder, he only uses the power when the need is upon him and then it is subconciously done and not an evnt of his own will or control...

 

Finally both the Asha'men have spent time around him, so unless Masema learnt how to hide his ability, its simply impossible

.

 

again,,, a Wilder ,,, not in control , not even aware it is the power being used ,,, (1) it could be naturaly inverted ,,, (2) when Naynave was a Wilder in Two Rivers Moraine could not detect her ability to channel unless she actually channeld could she?

[algspkr]

If he could channell, and did so enough to "convert" 20,000ish people he probably would have slipped around an Asha'man, or tried it on Perrin for that matter.

[CrazyMike]

I don't recall any Asha'men being anywhere near Masema,,, what is the distance that an Asha'man can detect another man channeling, I suppose it depends on the amount of power being channelled ,,, other than when they made Gateways to bring Masema's Mob with the army following Perrin I do not believe any of the Asha'men were ever near Masema ,,, and ,,, also ,,, If Masema is a Wilder and has no Idea he is channeling the Power then he would not be able to try and use it to convert Perin,,, also Perrin is Tavern and that works for him a lot...

[Luckers]

Yes and their movements build up over time , and they are always very charismatic ,,, several years of time and very Charismatic ,,, Masema's Movement has sprung up full blown in mere months of time, and , lets face it, Masema was not and is not very Charismatic, not even a little bit.

 

Jesus' entire career as a religious leader lasted 6 months. Zoroaster went from being a nobody to the head of an organized state religion in three months. Mani of the gnostic christian sect manechetism gathered a religious following so strong it nearly drove the Catholic Church to its knees in less then a year. Even know you can find religious symbols and temples of manechetism in lands as far away as china.

 

The fact is that if you combine charisma with religion and you can gather yourself a backing in a stunningly short time.

 

While true of most zealots Masema has not been slowly growing into a religious movement Masema's cult sprang into being almost overnight and swept up thousands of men ,,, why ,,, because he worked a power over them ,,, Masema is definitely a Dark Friend ,,, could his personal Charisma be due to the influences of the Shadow,,, I do not think so,,, I believe RAND al'Thor worked the Power on Masema in their final confrontation and triggered the Power in Masema...

 

Masema is no darkfriend, nor is his movement terribly different from many other like movements in history. Rand did not have enough control of the power to do anything to Masema, and if he did the resonance likely would have burned the ability right out of him. The guide says the channeling to ignite a male learner must be small, or else the resonance will be too strong. Additionally it require Masema's undevided focus for anywhere up to an hour, with Rand sustaining a simple weave for that entire time and finally Rand would have felt it happen.

 

Masema did not come to the power until Confronted by RAND al'Thor , so Masema has not been Channeling the Power for a very long time, in fact less time than Rand,,, and Masema does not use the power often, he does not chose to use the power at all, he is a Wilder, he only uses the power when the need is upon him and then it is subconciously done and not an evnt of his own will or control...

 

When was he confronted by Rand? Even with the resonance, a learner will not spark in the manner you describe. He would still need to be trained, or else he would not be able to channel at all, however instinctively--RJ has stated this. And he is too old to be a sparker.

 

again,,, a Wilder ,,, not in control , not even aware it is the power being used ,,, (1) it could be naturaly inverted ,,, (2) when Naynave was a Wilder in Two Rivers Moraine could not detect her ability to channel unless she actually channeld could she?

 

Yes, Moiraine could sense the ability. Indeed, she could sense the ability in Egwene who had not even begun to channel. This is weaker in men, but we know from Rand and Taim that it is still present, and the Asha'men have come within that distance of Masema. If Masema could channel the Asha'men would have felt it the second they came near him.

 

Inversion does not cover the sense of the power being woven, nor is it easy. He would have needed to naturally discover the complex weave of spirit needed to hide the ability AND then the ability to invert those weaves. Wilders learn things by instinct... if someones hurt they might instinctively heal them, and so on. I don't see Masema learning to instinctively do those two things.

 

I don't recall any Asha'men being anywhere near Masema,,, what is the distance that an Asha'man can detect another man channeling, I suppose it depends on the amount of power being channelled ,,, other than when they made Gateways to bring Masema's Mob with the army following Perrin I do not believe any of the Asha'men were ever near Masema ,,, and ,,, also ,,, If Masema is a Wilder and has no Idea he is channeling the Power then he would not be able to try and use it to convert Perin,,, also Perrin is Tavern and that works for him a lot...

 

If Masema is instinctively using compulsion in the face of those that oppose him he would have used it on Perrin.

 

Finally, what you propose is impossible anyway... using compulsion instinctively is common... against single individuals. Mass compulsion would be impossible, it would fry their brains. Unless your suggesting that Masema is so strong he could weave 20,000 weaves simultaniously, i dont see that happening.

[Rumor]

I agree with Luckers on this one...I don't think it's possible Masema is compelling thousands of people. The only value to my post is to also point out that the Dragon Reborn is a particularly driving force, even when he doesn't exist, which in the specific example of this series is why Masema was able to gather so many fanatics/followers in such a short period of time. We've already been given examples of how fast a false Dragon can gain followers who believe he's the true Dragon - so if enough evidence presents itself that the Dragon has an actual Prophet, then I'd imagine people would follow even more avidly.

[CrazyMike]

Why not one at a time Conversions?

(1) If Masema Converts 2 big guys then they can easily force 1 or 2 small guys to fall inline with the program out of fear(consider most of Masema's Followers are mainly scared idiots without the minimum courage or wits to run away)

(2) 1 or 2 at a time , 5 or 6 times a day , for say 1 or 2 years ,,, can somebody check my math ,,, a Minimum of say 1460 Devout Firebreathing (Bomb Toting) Zealots in 1 year,,, and ,,, maybe as many as 8,760 in 2 years... Hhhmmmm ,,, enough to terrorize and control about 15,000 cowards to fill out the numbers some ...

(3) Remember; in the Psychology of MOBS and Large Groups (Army's and Soccor Fans in big Stadiums or maybe Baseball fans in Boston) small individuals take on the strength of the numbers in the Crowd they are in so blind acceptance of otherwise unacceptable actions and attitudes becomes normal and the mind blurs around the edges of Morality and common sense so that people change and become the thing they hated before... (Also if you can get the small fat kid wearing glasses that is stnding in the corner to take part in the crime he becomes like the big guys but mainly a scaired version)

(4) and then add in the Fact that all large Armys with a lack of Spit and Polish and Low Morality always attract RAPIST, MURDERS, THIEVES and Child Molesters in farely large numbers,,, so then these also add to the numbers and the general evil of the Group which helps to terrorize unwilling individuals into getting with the program or else.

:and also:

(8)there is no reason to believe that when the Power is used in small weak doses to bend the mind and mental faculties of select individuals that it is not permanent of at least very Long Lasting ; after all it is not Hynotisim ...

: therefore:

Yeah,,, I still believe Masema is a Dark Friend WILDER

[RobertAlexWillis]

There have always been zealots who have been able to create large followings in short periods of time, in the real world. The fact that he has an army doesn't mean he can channel.

 

Also, to be a wilder, he would have to have been born with the spark. The spark would have manifested earlier in his life, and since he is at least a few years years older than Rand, he would already have had to be channeling before he met Rand. Also, if he was compelling people subconsciously, why didn't he convert Uno and the Shienarans who started out with him? They were with him the longest.

[CrazyMike]

Osam Bin Laden Had a Lot of Money ,,, so he was abile to FINANCE a life of comparative luxury for a bunch of low life Sheep didlers ,,, thats the only reason that he got a big following fast ...

Most examples you can name either had money to finance it or joined groups already in existance and took them over with the help and guidance of others already in charge of the Group,,, like Hitler and the Brown Shirts took over the party they joined in the 1930's

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um, I'm going back farther than the 1930's

[MetalMonkeyMood]

How old is Masema? I got the feeling from the books that he was in his late thirties, maybe even early forties. Wouldn't his channeling abilities have manifested before then?

Also, Perrin had two Asha'man with him when he was attacking the Shaido in KoD. Men might have greater difficulty detecting the ability in someone than women, but I still think that Grady or Neald would have sensed something if Masema was going around using what could only be a very coarse form of compulsion on people.

Masema's insanity strikes me more as the type of madness someone would have if he were under compulsion, not if he were suffering from the effects of the taint. I'm not entirely comfortable with the theory that Demandred is using Masema as a proxy through compulsion though - if he is then he must be really, really annoyed at Masema's poorly executed attempt to take Perrin's life.

[Guest Majsju]

if he is then he must be really, really annoyed at Masema's poorly executed attempt to take Perrin's life

 

Poorly executed? If those Shaido hadn't showed up and put some arrows in Aram, Perrin would have been sliced like a kebab, and he was just lucky that both Shaido shot Aram, and not one of them him.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

if he is then he must be really' date=' really annoyed at Masema's poorly executed attempt to take Perrin's life[/quote']

 

Poorly executed? If those Shaido hadn't showed up and put some arrows in Aram, Perrin would have been sliced like a kebab, and he was just lucky that both Shaido shot Aram, and not one of them him.

 

True, I hadn't really looked at it like that. I suppose turning one of Perrin's closest people (if not his most trusted) against him would probably have worked if not for pure, blind luck. I suppose I just never really thought of Aram as the best of choices for an assasination attempt.

[Trib4l]

Perrin said, "Engage super-character shield!"

[Guest cwestervelt]

if he is then he must be really' date=' really annoyed at Masema's poorly executed attempt to take Perrin's life[/quote']

 

Poorly executed? If those Shaido hadn't showed up and put some arrows in Aram, Perrin would have been sliced like a kebab, and he was just lucky that both Shaido shot Aram, and not one of them him.

 

True, I hadn't really looked at it like that. I suppose turning one of Perrin's closest people (if not his most trusted) against him would probably have worked if not for pure, blind luck. I suppose I just never really thought of Aram as the best of choices for an assasination attempt.

 

I kept on expecting Aram to turn out to be the Tinker that was seen by "Bors" (Jaichim Carridin) at the unholy conclave in the beginning of the Great Hunt. As a result, I wasn't surprised that he turned on Perrin and tried to kill him. I was surprised that it took so long and that it was Masema's influence rather than DF orders which caused it.

[CrazyMike]

Ok,,, somebody explain , with a believable explaination , how Masema managed to convert the Fanatic ARAM from being a devoted follower of Perrin and Faile to being an assasine devoted to killing his former hero ,,, Hhhhmmm ? ,,, sounds like somebody used spirit weaves to rearrainge ARAMs mental functions ,,, again evidence to support the theroy that:

MASEMA is a WILDER , whose ability to Channel was triggered by RAND al'Thor ,,, maybe Rand used Spirit on Masema and that triggered the developement of the latent ability in Masema?

[Luckers]

Please, Aram had a need for direction that Perrin neither percieved nor fulfilled. His entire religious and ideological system had been removed... not because he no longer believed, but because he had gained an instinct that didn't fit with it. It wasn't enough to satisfy him spiritually, though he tried to make it do that.

 

Masema offered him what he needed. A belief system with which he could feel comfortable and no longer have to think about the nature of the world any more. He was lost, and Masema offered him answers, simple as that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

*patting crazymike on the shoulder* Of course ... if that makes you feel better *motioning to the orderly*

[CrazyMike]

I am still waiting for a believable explaination ,,,

Arams stated reason for existance was to detroy anything associated with the Shadow ; but we have people speculating that Aram was a Dark Freind ; so if Aram was a Double agent for the Shadow he has already filled his deep need; and if Aram was not a DF then his devotion to Perrin and Faile as his hope for a chance to fight the Shadow would not waiver when faced with a suspected Dark Friend named Masema,,, keeping in mind that nearly everyone in Perrins Camp was muttering against and out right cursing Masema as a Dark Friend already ,,,

so somebody please come up with something way more believeable than Aram was a poor lost baby who just needed direction and encouragement from a kind and benevolent Masema,,, LOL

[Luckers]

Aram wasn't a darkfriend.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its not our fault that you don't believe that a young man who watches his family murdered as he stands helpless and is then rejected as lost by his remaining family for wanting to protect them is confused and easily manipulated. Your lack of belief doesn't stop it from being the case.

 

*muttering* where are those bloody orderlies?

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Aram had his whole life snatched away, since the trollocs killed his family without any of them attempting to fight back because of the way of the leaf. He wants revenge, on any darkfriend or thing linked to the shadow, and the remaining tinkers see him as an aberration, a tinker with a sword, and refuse to even acknowledge his existence. He needs something else to fill the void left by his shattered beliefs, and for a while Perrin and Faile (especially Faile) filled that. Perrin goes a bit wacko looking for Faile though, chopping off people's hands and becoming more and more, well feral is probably the best word. I can imagine that Aram probably thought he had made a bad choice in following Perrin, who with his golden eyes, wolf following, knowledge of things he shouldn't know (like emotions from his sense of smell and information from Tel'aran'rhiod)was prime DF candidate anyhow.

Along comes the prophet a charismatic and very scary man who is caught up in his own zeal and leads people in a path he views as the only possible right way. He offers Aram an alternative set of beliefs, something to target his fanaticism against, namely to become one of the dragonsworn and save the world from the shadow, something Aram feels strongly about anyway. Masema also uses Aram's growing distrust of Perrin and turns him against his former hero even further. Aram's infatuation with Faile probably also played a part there. Aram is not the Shadow's double agent, unless Demandred is working through Masema in which case Aram doesn't know he's being used. He is lost and in need of direction, but I wouldn't say a baby, more like a moving arrow in need of a target.

Now is that enough of an explanation or not? I find your insistence that Masema can channel peculiar. How do you explain the fact none of the Asha'man sensed his channeling? Or that Masema started channeling so old? Or that his fellow Shienarans weren't converted? If you want to continue with your insistance regarding Aram and Masema, perhaps you could explain these points before going on about Aram being compelled by Masema?

[Guest cwestervelt]

but we have people speculating that Aram was a Dark Freind ; so if Aram was a Double agent for the Shadow he has already filled his deep need;

 

Let me clarify. For the longest time I expected Aram to be the mentioned Tinker. With his turning on Perrin under Masema's influence, the possibility of him being a closet DF pretty much went out the window.

 

BTW CrazyMike, what's with using all bold text for everything you type? No offense meant, but there's need to shout all the time.

 

Addition: I see I'm not the only one to have wondered about that point.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/books/tgh/prologue.html

[Luckers]

The Tinker? It occured to me, but it didn't fit Aram. For a long time i thought it might be Raen, but since he has not reapeared ive given up. I doubt it matters.